Isochron Scepter

[Sinis]

Recently, a random card of the day was Isochron Scepter (it appears here and goes on for maybe a page or two).

There was a pretty lively debate; some people said it was awesome, some (myself included) thought it wasn't hot outside of competitive circles.

So, let's say you're not in a competitive group and you don't want to go infinite with it. How many instants do you need to run (that cost 2 or less)? What colours are you playing? What's it doing for you?

[ISBPathfinder]

This is me strictly talking about it from a 75% non combo commander perspective. I am not a big fan of the card and here are some of my reaons:

• Target Density - So, lets start with target density as the first talking point. This card can only imprint instants with the mana cost of 2 or less. Lets just shortcut to saying that probably is going to limit this card to some sort of lean build curve list often being more of a spellslinger type of deck. The real question is how many viable targets make this card reasonable. I would generally speaking say that I would want at least 15 viable targets before threat density of finding a card to put on this becomes somewhat reasonable. If you don't have sufficient targets to imprint for this card I think its a non starter.
• Setup Cost - You are taking a 2 or less mana instant and attaching a 2 mana sorcery speed cost of setting it up. Also, in the case that you might have put a one mana spell on it you are going to be paying more than one mana to cast it. This might not seem like the end of the world but you might have just turned a one mana instant into somewhat of a forecasted 4 mana spell. Generally speaking lots of lists that run lean mana cost instants tend to be efficient and this is not really that efficient.
• Thread Assessment - Lots of people don't like seeing value over time effects continue to happen. The more annoying of a card you put on Isochron the less likely everyone is going to want to let you keep it. Sure, that Seedborn Muse with Isochron with Silence on it is cute but thats multiple cards named there that everyone at the table is probably gunning for stopping and if opponents aren't running instant speed interaction for it its no different than running stax against casual players.
• Return on Value - Even if you immediately activate Isochron it is still negative immediate value due to the imprint. You spend two cards and you get to cast a single card out of it. If it doesn't live to the next turn you 2 for 1ed yourself and thats assuming you still cast it once and didn't eat an end of turn Krosan Grip . I am not saying that you will always see Krosan Grip or anything but even activating Isochron turn one, you are still negative value until you activate it again.

So, for me, I think its not that great because it only fits in a few select builds and it runs the same issue as Phyrexian Arena / Sunforger have if you ask me in that its great if you can get it in and ride it but when it doesn't go for multiple turns it kind of sucks. Being a 2 for 1 on yourself to get started is a big reason I don't like it and any deck that is mana hungry can also have issues adding in the cost of this for some small value each turn. The "Better" your Isochron looks, the less likely it is to live.

I would generally speaking evaluate Isochron as Endless Atlas but with more specific build around nature, more likely to die, and it starts off with card disadvantage. That isn't how I want to describe a card that I want to play.

[Rumpy5897]

As mentioned in RCotD, I jammed it in Tromokratis and was happy with it. Going through my list, there were 11 targets I was happy with putting on there, split between counters (Arcane Denial, Counterspell, Mana Drain, Muddle the Mixture, Swan Song), draw (Anticipate, Impulse, Opt), weirdly good one-drop blue creature removal (Pongify, Rapid Hybridization), plus Mystical Tutor. Couple that with a few extra spell/artifact tutors and I'd normally be able to set up a Scepter with something sensible if so desired. But yeah, caveats - my group's not super removal dense and lower power on the whole, so the Scepter was rarely contested outside of some concerted pushes when I stuck an early counterspell on there.

[Dunharrow]

I would say it depends on your card draw. If you are monowhite creatures with hardly any card draw then I would say you need at least 20 targets before it makes sense.
But if you are Izzet spellslinger with 15 ways to draw cards, then maybe 10 targets is enough?

I don't know the math on it, but those are my initial thoughts.

My Shu Yun Deck plays 16 hits for IS. And now that I look through it I realized I should swap serum visions for opt.

[toctheyounger]

I run 10 instants for it in my Lazav, Dimir Mastermind deck and no ways to tutor for it. That being said, the deck isn't exactly competitive so it's probably not the poster for efficient usage of the scepter. It's in the deck as a thematic point, but that's the aim of the deck. Nonetheless, I wouldn't run it with less than 10 targets.

[choicetolive]

Isochron Scepter is a personal favorite of mine and it makes it into the tentative pile for a lot of decks I make, but really only makes it into 1 in maybe 6 decks in the end. While I love it in regular constructed formats, it has more often ended up either painting a target (as mentioned above) or really only getting one or two uses that would have been just as good as other cards. While it feels really good to get a bomb on it (had someone put a Swords to Plowshares on it while I was playing Goblins once), it's usually just pretty okay.
I'll continue trying to run it, because I love the card, but it rarely makes the cut even for me.

[Hawk]

I personally hate including a card unless it is a frequent hit. Like for instance, I'm fine only running 7-10 Trinket Mage or Sunforger targets, because those tutor for the hits. I'm fine running The Chain Veil in Daretti with only 9 additional 'walkers...because it hits my Commander himself. Ditto something like Steel of the Godhead in Sygg, River Guide - there aren't a ton of UW merfolk to get full advantage, but my Commander is one of the hits.

I guess I'll say I'd need 10 hits though. I am currently running Voltaic Key in Daretti and it only has 10 "real" hits since hitting a rock that taps for 1 is nothing and giving a single artifact creature pseudo-vigilance is only slightly less than nothing. It's on the cutting board there, but since Trading Post and The Chain Veil fuel my most degenerate endgames and Thran Dynamo is one of my best midgame cards, it's worth the risk. So if a deck had 10 good hits 3 of which are great, maybe I'd think about it.

Except then as ISB points out - this puts you down a card and initally costs 4 mana. Voltaic can just be dropped down for 1 mana, and a 1-mana artifact has other uses in a Daretti deck (can be sacced to Daretti or Welder or KCI or whatever). Key is also only in the deck provisionally and may get cut since it is a risky play. Scepter does actually nothing without a hit in hand, and is 2 mana and down a card up front for possible payoff later. So maybe 15 hits is closer to accurate.

[Sinis]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Here is some context: I play a Rienne, Angel of Rebirth deck that has the usual multicoloured creatures, but has a side theme of combat tricks and some weird support cards like Wild Defiance. Basically, I saw that Feather, the Redeemed and Anax and Cymede were multicoloured, stuffed in Gargos, Vicious Watcher (as well as Zada, Hedron Grinder and Mirrorwing Dragon, but I've removed them) and some tricks along with cards we'd play anyway and have been having fun with it.

I have 10-11 imprints for Isochron Scepter; not all are tricks (I guess Boros Charm could be a trick, but Swords to Plowshares is definitely not), and I've sleeved it up. Since many of these cards are situational and not spent right away, it increases the chance I might have one or more when I draw Isochron Scepter.

We'll see if it pans out.

[Rumpy5897]

That sounds like a super cool deck idea, and I'd totally run Scepter in something like that. Awaiting thread - would quite like to take a look at it, possibly dispense some Sage Advice™, while simultaneously not derailing discussion here.

Come to think of it, this sort of Feather-adjacent deck style is another solid home for Scepter on the whole. Your various heroic legends, Shu Yun, the sort of stuff that would happily (or does, if it can given colour identity) run Feather in the 99. Feather herself is exempt from this though due to the ease of recycling spells, as is Zada due to sheer card advantage and explosiveness. This is a relatively narrow deck class, and Scepter plus instants is facing competition from all sorts of small repeatable auras, but given the relative shallowness I can imagine both themes potentially co-existing in a list.

[FoxM1]

Oh how I have been looking forward to a thread like this!

I absolutely love to slam a Narset's Reversal under a scepter. You get to either copy your spells and leave them in your hand for later (I love to copy my ramp spells this way) or you can use them to either intimidate the board or to just play around with your opponents spells. I've only gotten it to happen about 3 times, but I have always had a blast with it. And if you get stuff that untaps your artifacts?! Hoo boy. HOO BOY does it get crazy.

[Sinis]

That sounds like a super cool deck idea, and I'd totally run Scepter in something like that. Awaiting thread - would quite like to take a look at it, possibly dispense some Sage Advice™, while simultaneously not derailing discussion here.

Done.

Come to think of it, this sort of Feather-adjacent deck style is another solid home for Scepter on the whole. Your various heroic legends, Shu Yun, the sort of stuff that would happily (or does, if it can given colour identity) run Feather in the 99. Feather herself is exempt from this though due to the ease of recycling spells, as is Zada due to sheer card advantage and explosiveness. This is a relatively narrow deck class, and Scepter plus instants is facing competition from all sorts of small repeatable auras, but given the relative shallowness I can imagine both themes potentially co-existing in a list.

It's not that the effect pool is narrow, it's that there's only so many slots, and the deck has to still function with basic strategic strengths outside of the fun theme (like, ramp, removal, etc.). Auras are a nonbo with Wild Defiance, which I really, really want to play. I may walk that back later, but for now, the Auras probably won't make it in.

[Neptune]

If you like Wild Defiance, play UG Infect. Or UG aggro with Edric, Spymaster of Trest. If you want less competitive, you could sub in almost any other UG legend. The Scepter could imprint Simic Charm and protect itself or trigger Wild Defiance.

[3drinks]

Recently, a random card of the day was Isochron Scepter (it appears here and goes on for maybe a page or two).

There was a pretty lively debate; some people said it was awesome, some (myself included) thought it wasn't hot outside of competitive circles.

So, let's say you're not in a competitive group and you don't want to go infinite with it. How many instants do you need to run (that cost 2 or less)? What colours are you playing? What's it doing for you?

So, I go back and forth on slotting this into Kari Zev. Typically, I'm pretty happy putting a Lightning Bolt or an Abrade on it, but then sometimes I hit the motherload and stick a Price of Progress or REB on it. I can't think of an instant I run that can't become a scepter target, and I'm at over ten instants in deck.

But...the stick isn't always in the deck.

[Crazy Monkey]

I run the scepter for one of 2 reasons, either long-term card advantage from removal, counterspell or cantrip, or when my commander triggers on spell casts. Ideally both are true, in decks like Talrand, Sky Summoner or Riku of Two Reflections. It does draw responses, but generally the 2 CMC tax isn't burdensome and the long term payoffs can be large.

I don't run the scepter/reversal combo, but it's in multiple decks in my group. I'm not sure which they would consider more threatening, a scepter with Dramatic Reversal or Mana Drain.

[umtiger]

I don't need to run it in a 99 based around instants. but i'm looking for one characteristic:
Counterspells, so I always feel like I have a powerful fall back for value. dropping a scepter and imprinting a counter with 2 up makes me feel good