[Brewing] Monowhite control with Mangara, the Diplomat

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago



I started noodling hard about mono white in the other thread, and figured I'd spin up a new one for the idea I like the most so far. This deck concept I have in my head is mono white emeria control.

This overlaps a lot with my Ephara deck, but Emeria is one of my favorite cards in commander and I really like Mangara, so I'm going to do some brewing and see where it goes :)

The only core ideas I have so far are:

1. Hits its land drops consistently and benefits from slamming plains
Cards: Expedition Map, Knight of the White Orchid Emeria Shepherd Weathered Wayfarer Boreas Charger Tithe Gift of Estates Oreskos Explorer Walking Atlas.

2. High percentage of reactive spells and abilities that maximize the ability to both punish people for triggering Mangara's while also encouraging it
Sample cards: Maze of Ith // Thaumatic Compass // Spires of Orazca Condemn Blessed Alliance Settle the Wreckage, Righteous Aura

I think I would like to play some equipment (because Mangara having lifelink amplifies the racing capability of equipment), but not necessarily for sure on that - maybe just a small stoneforge package.

I also like the idea of a reactive package that protects Mangara (stuff like Ephemerate and Eerie Interlude ) that do double duty.

I dig the idea of some amount of goodstuff like Luminous Broodmoth and Palace Jailer.

I really like the idea of going heavy on cards that do not reset the board, things like Heliod's Intervention and Angel of the Dire Hour and Winds of Abandon.

Something I really dig about Mangara is her ability to essentially ghostly prison people - no one wants to attack you unless they have a 4+ power creature and then you can theoretically just remove it, and once you train them not to swing single dudes at you, you become pretty safe from assault.

Stuff like Mother of Runes and Giver of Runes feel really darn good with Mangara since you can really punish small attacks.

It feels like the deck probably wants some number of sac outlets to enable Emeria to protect your dudes from removal, and also broodmoth if I play that.

What're your guys' thoughts? Ideas/angles I'm missing? Any pet removal spells that you feel would be really good with Mangara? I dig stuff like Rebuff the Wicked and Apostle's Blessing too :)

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

My biggest issue with Mangara at the helm, is that I don't find a lot of cards to really by commander synergy so much as just...... not bad in a mono white shell. Sure, mazes are a thing but with access to Kor Haven you were probably going to run that anyways in mono white.

When I start getting into less cool synergy builds in mono white and start looking more to a goodstuff approach I tend to lose a lot of the incentive to be mono colored.

So.......... what cards get you excited that the commander specifically allow you to play them in a meaningful way? I couldn't come up with a very big list and when compared to a multicolored commander that just has crazy draw value, ramp, or whatever its hard to measure up. When I play mono colored I tend to want them to enable some sweet synergy build.

I love mono white commanders, I just literally couldn't find a reason for my commander to be Mangara over a multicolored goodstuff commander. I'll dig up my theorycraft list just to show you where I got to.

EDIT: Rough list I was crafting for the commander:
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This list was a bit odd but I ended up building a lot of things that required interaction to kill me. I did this in part because too many people in my meta have been playing proactive gameplans with too little interaction for opponents strategies. Its a meta thing and again, this list didn't make it past being an early draft.


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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
My biggest issue with Mangara at the helm, is that I don't find a lot of cards to really by commander synergy so much as just...... not bad in a mono white shell. Sure, mazes are a thing but with access to Kor Haven you were probably going to run that anyways in mono white.

When I start getting into less cool synergy builds in mono white and start looking more to a goodstuff approach I tend to lose a lot of the incentive to be mono colored.
That's definitely a legitimate thing to consider. The main thing I think is your manabase is incredibly smooth - making Emeria, the Sky Ruin work with more than 2 colors is almost impossible and even with 2 it's very awkward. So you get some easily available "big mana" options with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Serra's Sanctum that work a lot smoother in mono color, and you also get some bomb creatures that don't work that well out of white (like Emeria Shepherd and

And you get to be super greedy for the mazes, as well as room for sac outlets on lands. There's not a lot of decks I would want to run both maze of ith and [card]Kor Haven
and Arch of Orazca and even Winding Canyons. You get to go kinda ham on utility if you want - could probly fit 10 utility lands in there safely.

The thing I don't get about your theorycrafted list is there's really no reason to spend any calories on stuff like Blazing Archon and Ghostly Prison when you can just let them attack you, draw cards, and then kill the creatures. People will stop walking into Settle the Wreckage and Comeuppance and Selfless Squire really fast.

There really are not that many commanders that do the specific things of:
1) Dissuading attacks
2) encouraging people to play slower

It frees you up from needing to jam a ton of card draw because if people are playing 1 spell a turn and not attacking with more than one creature you can afford to just let it go slow - let your plains accumulate, tutor for Emeria and then be unbeatable.

It's like your commander is a real bad Ghostly Prison and a pretty bad Rhystic Study at the same time. She's got a really unique set of abilities in terms of the play patterns she encourages. At least that's my thinking could be wrong. :)

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Keep in mind, Rhystic Study punishes opponents for casting more spells beyond two. If someone wants to cast five spells its no different than if they had cast two with this commander.

Its also worth asking yourself what the player with Mangara can do with a single draw. You are mono white. I am a lot less concerned giving the mono white guy a single card so I can play as I want than I am giving the blue player multiple cards. Like, what kind of pressure can you put back on those players even if you draw a little more? Mono white actually kind of sucks at assembling a threatening board to be honest.

I feel like while you might be a control deck, the pressure you can assert back on opponents isn't going to be that impressive. Just playing through your draw a single card isn't that hard and while there are ways to defend yourself in mono white, I just don't know what you will be accomplishing as a whole with a few extra cards.

Its also going to depend on how people attack you. If you draw a card for me to draw / play my entire deck and win via Thassa's Oracle..... who cares. Obviously white sucks vs combo but even beyond that, what if someone just plans to Cabal Coffers Exsanguinate you out? I guess, yea it seems like it might win via combat decks but what if they are playing hexproof voltron or a deck that doesn't do combat damage?

EDIT: sorry, I don't mean to come off so negative on this. I was very excited when this commander got spoiled I just couldn't find cards that actually seemed to have synergy with the the commander.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Keep in mind, Rhystic Study punishes opponents for casting more spells beyond two. If someone wants to cast five spells its no different than if they had cast two with this commander.

Its also worth asking yourself what the player with Mangara can do with a single draw. You are mono white. I am a lot less concerned giving the mono white guy a single card so I can play as I want than I am giving the blue player multiple cards. Like, what kind of pressure can you put back on those players even if you draw a little more? Mono white actually kind of sucks at assembling a threatening board to be honest.

I feel like while you might be a control deck, the pressure you can assert back on opponents isn't going to be that impressive. Just playing through your draw a single card isn't that hard and while there are ways to defend yourself in mono white, I just don't know what you will be accomplishing as a whole with a few extra cards.

Its also going to depend on how people attack you. If you draw a card for me to draw / play my entire deck and win via Thassa's Oracle..... who cares. Obviously white sucks vs combo but even beyond that, what if someone just plans to Cabal Coffers Exsanguinate you out? I guess, yea it seems like it might win via combat decks but what if they are playing hexproof voltron or a deck that doesn't do combat damage?
So all valid points!

My thought is that mangara with a sword is a pretty threatening board, in its own way, and if you play some pretty big creatures you can power out with nykthos mana. Things like Luminarch Ascension go a long way toward pressure as well.

It is a bit of a bummer that white struggles pretty hard with stuff like Thassa's Oracle but you do have a few outs (Angel's Grace and Gideon of the Trials) and I would think that is enough for the casual to 75% table - can also play Hushbringer and Aven Mindcensor as random goodstuff guys if that's a problem. And of course Lapse of Certainty is hilarious :)

You can also crucible/sun titan strip mine those folks, which works pretty well if you're ramping pretty hard on lands.

I generally do not play my mid-powered decks against stuff with the compact CEDH wincons though, and that's my main thought. With all the removal I plan to pack most other combos are not an issue.

I'm thinking like 15-20 removal spells as a baseline, maybe as high as 25-30. Phelddagrif territory :P
ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
EDIT: sorry, I don't mean to come off so negative on this. I was very excited when this commander got spoiled I just couldn't find cards that actually seemed to have synergy with the the commander.
Please, don't worry - you make some great points. I do think there's a sweet spot of synergy with her with stuff like:

Martyr's Cause - sac your guys to prevent combat damage and recur them
Righteous Aura - pay the life you gain with Mangara
Maze of Ith et al
Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Retribution of the Meek effects not hitting her
Maybe even combat punishers like Lightmine Field discouraging alpha strikes

I think running Drannith Magistrate + Knowledge Pool is possibly good as well, esp. as KP has some synergy with Mangara independently (forcing every spell they cast to trigger her).

She is also quite synergistic with Planeswalkers of all sorts since her ability defends them, so that's another angle.

wow, she is *super* with Gideon Jura :)

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I've had me some good times with Emeria, the Sky Ruin,a sac outlet, and Lark/Guide/Titan loops with Kor Cartographer, Solemn Simulacrum, and Burnished Hart. Just saying.

I suppose you could get real controlling with that plus something like the various Strip Mine variants, Restore Balance, and Magus of the Balance + Elixir of Immortality or some nonsense like that.
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Post by Serenade » 3 years ago

No one running him with Angel's Trumpet?
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I am going to try my hardest to avoid going too heavy on artifacts since smashing them all is one of the things Mangara can do without killing HIMSELF. But that is a darned cool card.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

BTW "she" has an adam's apple :P

I do agree with ISBPathfinder in that Mangara doesn't have a lot of synergy as such, just simply more about value...

...however I do think that planeswalkers are the more synergistic route when it comes to getting value out of his attack draw ability.
The thing is that the "white walkers" are quite compartmentalized in what they do.
Ajani life gain and counters on creatures.
Elspeth token creatures and buffs.
Gideon making himself a creature and an assortment of abilities.

The colorless planeswalkers can be a bit more straightforward.
Karn, the Great Creator can really force the action against a lot of matchups.
Karn, Scion of Urza slowish card advantage.
Karn Liberated versatile removal. Restarting the game can be the real deal if you've tucked one or two things good.
Ugin, the Ineffable solid removal and card advantage.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is a must removal for opponents or game-over-man.

Now you mentioned a control deck. So I'm trying to think of synergy with the white walkers.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Elspeth, Sun's Champion are the easiest as far as providing advantages without necessarily anything else.
Beyond that I was thinking that if you combine sweepers (Hour of Revelation for example) with abilities of Basri Ket, Gideon Blackblade, Gideon, Battle-Forged, then you can give indestructible to Mangara.
As pointed out Gideon Jura is another one and Gideon of the Trials is an underrated card when it comes to stifling combo decks that look to win on the spot.
The other good thing about Gideon planeswalkers is that they provide indestructible to himself, meaning that the Hour of Revelation type effects do not harm him.

Thalia's Lancers and Arena Rector are nice walker support.

So personally this is how I'd see the deck as trying not to commit too much to the board and use Akroma's Vengeance, Austere Command, Planar Cleansing, Cleansing Nova to clean up the battlefield.

Actually closing the game is a little trickier. Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Elspeth, Sun's Champion can do it. If you have Knight-Errant emblem and do have a few sweepers and leave your board, then it often doesn't matter what the quantity or quality of what you have. On the same token note (pun intended) if you have Sun's Champion without answers then between the tokens and the emblem you can finish the game.
As I've mentioned Karn Liberated restart the game is nothing to snuff at when it comes to actually turning into a win-con.

Emeria, the Sky Ruin can be your late-game finisher and between Sun Titan and Sevinne's Reclamation to get it back if Strip Mine or such.
Note you can't be fooled into trying many utility lands if you are legitimately trying to use Emeria, the Sky Ruin, which is hard when you are playing mono-colored decks as you can see so much value in some of the colorless lands.

If you are trying to use equipment, I cannot stress how often you really do need a low curve creature deck. If you plan is to equip Mangara and attack, then you are going to have a lot of miserable games where you do nothing as you spend your mana to equip and he gets removed.
I've found that you want quite a few one and two drop targets for a deck that has a number of equipment.
Playing a Sword of the Animist on Turn 2, only to have to wait until Turn 5 to equip Mangara isn't exactly where you want to be at.

Throne of the High City and Palace Jailer to get the monarchy into the game can induce action. But you need to make sure that you have some number of evasive creatures to get it back.
This leads into more of a hate-bear style package with candidates like Aven Mindcensor, Remorseful Cleric, Hushbringer, with other support cards like Selfless Spirit, Cartographer's Hawk, Boreas Charger.
These creatures lead into equipment being much more viable.

Skullclamp being nice with tokens of Basri Ket, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
Swords of Fire and Ice, Feast and Famine, Light and Shadow, Truth and Justice make for a quality and not a quantity equipment package.
Its important to keep it simple and not get carried away with equipment when as I say you need a good threshold of one and two drops to make equipment viable.

Now with some solid graveyard recursion you can still run a number of board sweepers as I originally suggested with the planeswalker idea even if you do run creatures and equipment.
You've already mentioned Luminous Broodmoth and Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle can also be integrated given some thought.
Casting equipment will trigger Teshar as a bonus.
Salvage Scout and Restoration Specialist can be used as a recycling package with Broodmoth and Teshar to get back equipment or other artifacts.

I will say that leaning on Wayfarer's Bauble and Burnished Hart and as many fetch-lands as possible and using some of the fore-mentioned cards to recur from graveyard does give you some consistency in land ramp.
If you can Broodmoth or Teshar or Sword of Light and Shadow a Salvage Scout and Restoration Specialist to get back Wayfarer's Bauble then that is a fine plan.
If you can run the maximum amount of fetch-lands in Flooded Strand, Marsh Flats, Arid Mesa, Windswept Heath, Prismatic Vista, Fabled Passage, Myriad Landscape then you can legitimately look at Brought Back and Sevinne's Reclamation as straight up land ramp.

I know I'm being Captain Obvious of a lot of the mentions in here, but at the end of the day giving confirmation is still nice with feedback.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

The only real exciting part for Mangara, the Diplomat is some number of planeswalkers.

Your opponents will (probably) be in a double bind. If they attack your walkers you get to draw (and you could still block), and if they don't attack your walkers, they get to increase loyalty unimpeded.

I think this also dovetails nicely with your Maze and reactive gameplan.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
The only real exciting part for Mangara, the Diplomat is some number of planeswalkers.

Your opponents will (probably) be in a double bind. If they attack your walkers you get to draw (and you could still block), and if they don't attack your walkers, they get to increase loyalty unimpeded.

I think this also dovetails nicely with your Maze and reactive gameplan.
Yeah, I am normally fairly against superfriends decks but I think mono-white and colorless walkers with Mangara could be pretty fun, especially since the walkers are all fairly mindless. Might even play my big Ugin, since Mangara has a high enough CMC. Maybe if I don't play any shenanigans except Oath of Gideon for flavor reasons it'll work out.

Beating down a Karn Liberated with Mangara in front feels..difficult.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

If you go hard down the artifact route as well as a superfriends theme, baby Eugene could hook you up.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
If you go hard down the artifact route as well as a superfriends theme, baby Eugene could hook you up.
I am a bit torn on the artifact volume, but I think his -3 is almost good enough on its own, and making dudes to block for the others is also sweet. I think I would play all 3 karns and both Ugins which makes for 5 colorless walkers as is.

My walker list right now is:

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I am a bit torn on the artifact volume, but I think his -3 is almost good enough on its own,
Eh. I think his discount, while considerable, doesn't need to be used to include him. A lot of the time, you're past development of mana rocks when you play him, and that ability is often irrelevant anyway. I think the real mojo with WAR Ugin is that you get some combination of card draw, tokens, and removal from his remaining abilities. There's just a lot there, and the artifact discount is "like, okay, I guess."

It really shines in more artifact focused decks (especially mono-red ones), but I think the other abilities more than stand tall enough.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
There's just a lot there, and the artifact discount is "like, okay, I guess."
I tend to value cost reduction over once-per-turn mana production. Obviously baby Eugene is only reducing one, specific type of cost, so his contribution varies from deck to deck. However, if a deck is running anything north of 15-20 artifacts (or eldrazi), I'd say the discount is a huge deal.

Ugin, the Ineffable was effably amazing in my Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain deck, I'll say that much.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Ugin, the Ineffable was effably amazing in my Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain deck, I'll say that much.
Oh I can definitely see it shining in something like Jhoira (you get to draw a card with Jhoira, to boot, on account of Ugin being 'historic').

But, considering the context of mono-white, it's nice to have some virtual card advantage from tokens, card advantage from the tokens leaving play, etc.

We can all agree WAR Ugin has the juice!

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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

One possible route that could be worth considering is symmetrical card draw? Stuff like Howling Mine and friends. The general thought is that it would both help your own card flow by drawing more cards, but also help ensure that more players are hitting that second spell, thus letting you draw even more cards. Obviously the risk of handing out more threats than you can answer is a concern, but that's where your removal spells that hit more than one thing come in.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
One possible route that could be worth considering is symmetrical card draw? Stuff like Howling Mine and friends. The general thought is that it would both help your own card flow by drawing more cards, but also help ensure that more players are hitting that second spell, thus letting you draw even more cards. Obviously the risk of handing out more threats than you can answer is a concern, but that's where your removal spells that hit more than one thing come in.
It's worth thinking about; I'm generally *really* against those effects but I'm willing to try to think differently about it. Appreciate the insight.


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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote:
3 years ago
Don't forget Verge Rangers
Believe me if it's in white and it says "land" on it I won't forget it ;)

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