Do you curve your rocks or play all the 2 CMC ones?

[kraus911]

Doesn't seem that long ago where most decks using mana rocks (non green decks) curved up from Sol Ring and Mana Vault to the signets and maybe Fellwar Stone , and then good old Darksteel Ingot and a few other 3 cmc rocks, with a Gilded Lotus up top to really tempt those Krosan Grips. The Talismans have been around a long time, I've played them, but I haven't seen so many 2 cmc rock filled lists until Wizards pushed them in the Commander products. Keeping the cost of rocks down low makes sense for powered decks, then you're running all the 0 cost ones you can afford, but even more casual lists seem to be eschewing the fatter cmc slots recently.

I'm not against it. I think the 2 cmc ones are better in general because even late game you only lose 1 mana to get one on the table and they continue to build your base. I just find it interesting to notice the shift - run smaller rocks, more card draw, and be able to do more earlier in the game.

[pokken]

I design my ramp and fixing / land search package to enable the overall curve I want to play.

That never involves playing 3 cmc rocks that can't potentially ramp 2 or do a huge thing like Chromatic Lantern. So worn powerstone and coalition relic are all I will play at 3. I do still play dynamo and lotus if the situation warrants. They're really good when you can untap them with something like Clock of Omens.

I think the greed for 2 cmc fixing is a bit overdone these days. I see decks flame out all the time with 2 cmc rocks and missing their land drops. Too much focus on getting to 4 mana early that doesn't always make sense with the deck.

[Crazy Monkey]

It usually depends on the mana cost of my commander, because I build very commander-centric. I play higher cost, larger ramp rocks when my commander costs 6+, but otherwise I've been swapping 3 CMC rocks for 2 as more than don't enter tapped are printed. I think that's the best explanation for them in my decks; a byproduct of more being printed that can replace the Manaliths that used to be more common for ramp and fixing.

After that, it's more a questions of how mana hungry my deck is. A commander with a X cost ability will usually still run more rocks like Thran Dynamo or Gilded Lotus. Then, depending on the number of colors I may also use Prismatic Geoscope or Nyx Lotus.

That said, it also has to be on-theme for the deck in my case.

[Mookie]

My mana rocks have a curve, absolutely. I don't exclusively play 1 mana removal spells, 3 mana creatures, or 4 mana board wipes. Why should my ramp package be any different?

Now, if your commander if your commander costs exactly 4 mana and your deck's gameplan is to cast that commander on turn 3 every game, I could see an argument for primarily running CMC2 rocks. However, that isn't true of every commander. If my commander costs 3 or less, I would instead prefer to have CMC1 ramp... or, alternatively, to run more basic lands or cantrips to ensure I have 3 lands on turn 3 each game. On the other hand, if my commander costs 6+ mana, more expensive ramp like Cultivate or Worn Powerstone looks better. And at the topend, if I'm running a dedicated ramp deck that wants to hit 10+ mana, I'm going to be running Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, and mana doublers.

And of course, there are plenty of other ramp options to consider, even for decks not running green. Inspiring Statuary, Phyrexian Altar, Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale, Smothering Tithe... there are a lot of very powerful ramp options that aren't 2 mana rocks that tap for 1.

I'll certainly admit that running more cheap ramp is good if you want to lower your curve and make your deck faster, but I will strongly disagree that it's a one-size-fits-all strategy.

[Treamayne]

My ramp is determined by (roughly in order):

- Theme/subtheme (e.g. Everflowing Chalice in a proliferate deck, Golgari Keyrune in my Insect deck, Borderposts in the landfall deck)
- Versatility (what does it do besides ramp) (e.g. Mind Stone vertical cycle if I need the draw and don't mind C, but Cluestones if I need the draw and color fixing; Powerstone Shard for scaling in the deck that can make many artifact copy tokens)
- Color weight/fixing needs (e.g. Karona, False God Avatar deck has hefty color requirements, and runs no rocks that produce C for that reason)
- Curve

Basically, I'll only care about curve if all other factors are equal and I still have slots to fill.

[Cyberium]

I usually start with Signets/Talisman of the colors required, then I consider versatile ones like Mind Stone. I've been avoiding 3cc rocks unless they do more than add mana.

[DirkGently]

Depends on my plan. If my commander costs 4, I'm probably only running ramp that costs 2 or less. I'm a lot more likely to play cmc 3 rocks with upside if my commander costs 5.

Kaervek is an interesting case study because he's so expensive and the deck is almost entirely focused on him. Ideally I hit 4 land drops, with a signet on 2 and a 2+ mana rock on 3, to play him on 4. But since 2 cheap rocks is kinda the same as a big rock, but big rocks can't fill in for small rocks, small rocks take priority. I think it's a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio.

Have a plan, choose ramp appropriately.

[pokken]

(Some more thoughts on this, as I reflect)

In most decks I do absolutely everything I can to find ramp alternatives that are not signets - and to minimize my exposure to artifact sweepers. I will generally play Cultivate before a signet in a green deck even if the commander costs 4 just because I rarely play decks that want the game to end fast enough that I wouldn't rather be strongly set up for the mid game.

Ephara is an exception because she's so critical to land on curve, but most commanders who are going to die once or twice a game at least I won't bother rushing them out with talismans.

Alela, Artful Provocateur and Kykar, Wind's Fury are other exceptions to actively benefit from playing signets.

But I didn't play any signets in any of my Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and I don't play any in Omnath, Locus of the Roil. Part of that is his peculiarity of not really benefitting from being out that much until you're close to 8 lands,

I actively look for excuses to play Sword of the Animist or Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale or Knight of the White Orchid over signets, because lands are far more durable and I usually am aiming for the long game.

Generally the only times you'll find me playing a signet is if there's a real good reason to have it in the deck, almost never simply as good stuff ramp.

Note, I'm pretty atypical I think, but that's just my philosophy.

[kraus911]

Theme definitely matters. In my Marchesa artifacts matter deck obviously I play a ton of rocks at different cmcs. If you have a commander game plan of getting your commander on the table asap then curving your rocks to fit your commander makes sense, otherwise I think good old Darksteel Ingot still has value. There, I've convinced myself.

Wayfarer's Bauble is my favorite mana rock though. Pokken I agree with you on Sword of the Animist as well. I'd rather get the lands out of my deck and onto the battlefield than have a field of rocks that feed a Bane of Progress I also agree with what you said about people flaming out with 2 cmc mana rocks and then missing land drops. I've been toying with how many rocks to put in my Kelsien, the Plague deck so I can cast him late game and I'm actually wondering about replacing rocks with Night's Whisper and Faithless Looting to just make sure I hit my land drops. Consistency beats speed?

[if4ko]

Usually stuff that costs 2 or less. MAYBE a Gilded Lotus or a Chromatic Orrery if I'm on Transmute Artifact, but that's it.

[Treamayne]

... Pokken I agree with you on Sword of the Animist as well. I'd rather get the lands out of my deck and onto the battlefield than have a field of rocks that feed a Bane of Progress...

I also think Explorer's Scope is under appreciated, especially with any ToD manipulation...

[pokken]

I've been toying with how many rocks to put in my Kelsien, the Plague deck so I can cast him late game and I'm actually wondering about replacing rocks with Night's Whisper and Faithless Looting to just make sure I hit my land drops. Consistency beats speed?

So the advantage to playing the 2 cmc rocks in kelsien is that if you're playing the set of 'good stuff ramp' :

• ancient tomb
• mana crypt
• sol ring

You can play a turn 1 signet and turn 2 kelsien. I would generally look to play all 3 signets but not talismans since they don't produce enough colors to work that way.

Off the top of my head I would probably play a ramp+fixing package for kelsien that's something like:

• sol ring
• mana crypt
• ancient tomb
• chrome mox
• mox diamond
• weathered wayfarer
• tithe
• knight of the white orchid
• cartographer's hawk
• sword of the animist
• dowsing dagger
• boros signet
• orzhov signet
• rakdos signet

(The hawk is just worth trying I think, I am liking it sometimes in Ephara)

Then play card draw that works for you, I like whisper/looting/cathartic reunion/thrill of possibility really well, but I also like Wall of Omens and there are some black creatures who draw too. Depends on the other cards you want to play though.

Kelsien is kind of a special case with signets being a 3 cmc commander with no green who has all 3 color pips, he'll really benefit from the color fixing of signets.

With budget being a factor I would not play the signets if you can't cast them on turn 1 more often than just off Sol Ring.

I might play Land Tax if I had some way to benefit from the shuffle and enough basics, but it's situational for me.

Kelsien's haste will really benefit from sword/dowsing dagger (and potentially sword of feast and famine) with certain sequences where you don't want to jam him out first (or where he gets swept up).

[Dunharrow]

I play very few rocks that cost more than 3 mana. I would rather play Solemn Simulacrum over Thran Dynamo in most decks.
At 3 mana I play mostly Commander's Sphere, Coalition Relic and in greedy decks chromatic lantern.

Depending on CMC of my general, I will play Hedron Archive a bit though. I really like the draw 2 in the late game.

[BaronCappuccino]

My commander, Judith, the Scourge Diva , costs three, and my most common play, Shadowborn Apostle , costs one, so I only run zero and one cost rocks. I'm undergoing something of a paradigm shift in thinking away from the impressive, win-more, midrange ramp I used to love.

[Mimicvat]

I refuse to run any of the mana crypts, mox etc because I think they're a hugely negative influence on the format. I don't even run sol ring except in one deck designed to play at the higher tables at a store.

Typically my decks run every signet and talisman. After that I will go for the 2cmc colourless rocks if I am one or two colour, and for the better 3cmc+ rocks otherwise. I don't really worry about how the rocks line up with my commander's CMC as generally the 2cmc rocks are enough for the ramp that I want to run.

[UnNamed1]

I refuse to run any of the mana crypts, mox etc because I think they're a hugely negative influence on the format. I don't even run sol ring except in one deck designed to play at the higher tables at a store.

Is it a negative influence because you do not have a copy? Also, Sol Ring is hardly enough to get a deck the ramp needed for high power table's. Which list is your "high-power" list, because I'm curious.

Mainly, I play 0, 1, 2 CMC rocks, and hardly ever the signets, mostly the talismans if I need more acceleration. Mainly I run Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Mana Crypt, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Mox Opal. Those will provide me with speed, deficiency and color fixing the majority of the time that I need it. 2CMC rocks are like I said, Talismans of the color I need and Grim Monolith. The other includes would be Fellwar Stone in some lists and Arcane Signet in most 3+color lists.

[BaronCappuccino]

I refuse to run any of the mana crypts, mox etc because I think they're a hugely negative influence on the format. I don't even run sol ring except in one deck designed to play at the higher tables at a store.

Typically my decks run every signet and talisman. After that I will go for the 2cmc colourless rocks if I am one or two colour, and for the better 3cmc+ rocks otherwise. I don't really worry about how the rocks line up with my commander's CMC as generally the 2cmc rocks are enough for the ramp that I want to run.

While I don't disagree with you in recognizing the swingy imbalance caused by explosive early ramp when a lot of it is protected by a sturdy pay-wall, I'd rather be the problem than address the problem.

[SocorroTortoise]

My ramp is usually heavily weighted towards 1 and 2 CMC, but does take curve into account. I do curve ramp spells in decks that are interested in big mana, but higher CMC ramp spells are usually more threat than setup.

I don't run fast mana, aside from the occasional Mox Opal in artifact decks. Ancient Tomb occasionally, typically in lower powered lists. I have plenty of access to the cards, I just don't think they add much to the format and I haven't missed them since cutting them. The rest of my group is in a similar boat, though we won't stop people from playing them in games.

[Mimicvat]

I refuse to run any of the mana crypts, mox etc because I think they're a hugely negative influence on the format. I don't even run sol ring except in one deck designed to play at the higher tables at a store.

Is it a negative influence because you do not have a copy? Also, Sol Ring is hardly enough to get a deck the ramp needed for high power table's. Which list is your "high-power" list, because I'm curious.

Mainly, I play 0, 1, 2 CMC rocks, and hardly ever the signets, mostly the talismans if I need more acceleration. Mainly I run Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Mana Crypt, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Mox Opal. Those will provide me with speed, deficiency and color fixing the majority of the time that I need it. 2CMC rocks are like I said, Talismans of the color I need and Grim Monolith. The other includes would be Fellwar Stone in some lists and Arcane Signet in most 3+color lists.

The bolded section is the issue. The solution to OP stuff isn't to give the same OP stuff to other players. Not everything that "wrecks games" does so because "only they get to wreck games with it". People complain about sol ring etc skewing games, the answer to that for me is not to give everyone extra sol rings, its to not have sol rings at all!

"High power" is my mono-red deck, it has a few combos and is built to disrupt to the extent that mono-red can be. Whenever I tried to make a higher end deck that was the good colours the result was super boring to run lol. Its definitely at the lower end of whatever top table pod I end up in but its the only deck built for it and it can submarine when the opponents are multicolour staple generals

While I don't disagree with you in recognizing the swingy imbalance caused by explosive early ramp when a lot of it is protected by a sturdy pay-wall, I'd rather be the problem than address the problem.

I can see where you're coming from, but when people take this stance it just leads to more swingy and imbalanced games overall. So when I go to stores etc I have some decks that can deal with that mindset to some extent because you can't control what the randoms there play. But given 95% of my games are with regular groups I prefer to take that stuff out and for the most part their decks aren't running much of it either.

[Sinis]

Beyond theme or mechanical considerations, It depends on the general or the nature of the deck. If I just want to power out the general, I play ramp to curve into it. So, a five cost general plays 1-cost (if available, like Wild Growth), and 3-costs so I can quickly get to five. For a 4-cost General, I tend to run the 2-cost rocks/Rampant Growth, etc.

For decks that don't specifically want to table the general ASAP, I play the ones that will get me the most advantage; Cultivate etc. give card advantage. Failing all of that, I play a heap of two cost rocks with the rare 3-cost one (usually just Worn Powerstone).

Some decks are just weird; my Radha is a Signet deck in the decklists subforum almost exclusively plays 4-cost ramp and leans on Radha to power them out turn 3.

[UnNamed1]

I refuse to run any of the mana crypts, mox etc because I think they're a hugely negative influence on the format. I don't even run sol ring except in one deck designed to play at the higher tables at a store.

Is it a negative influence because you do not have a copy? Also, Sol Ring is hardly enough to get a deck the ramp needed for high power table's. Which list is your "high-power" list, because I'm curious.

Mainly, I play 0, 1, 2 CMC rocks, and hardly ever the signets, mostly the talismans if I need more acceleration. Mainly I run Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Mana Crypt, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Mox Opal. Those will provide me with speed, deficiency and color fixing the majority of the time that I need it. 2CMC rocks are like I said, Talismans of the color I need and Grim Monolith. The other includes would be Fellwar Stone in some lists and Arcane Signet in most 3+color lists.

The bolded section is the issue. The solution to OP stuff isn't to give the same OP stuff to other players. Not everything that "wrecks games" does so because "only they get to wreck games with it". People complain about sol ring etc skewing games, the answer to that for me is not to give everyone extra sol rings, its to not have sol rings at all!

I would put a Mox Diamond in more lists than I would a Mana Crypt. Realistically, fast mana doesn't cause an issue, unless someone is running it (and abusing it) vs people who are not running it. For most of my list's, the 2 colorless mana gets split between two different spells, or just to accelerate getting my commander out. Otherwise I need color mana to cast my spells. In that instance, ring/crypt/vault....aren't that good. Majority of the time, this mana is used to counteract the commander tax, so I can stay in the game, vs being put further behind. Sol Ring skews games? Run Disenchant. There is an answer for everything in the game, and it should not be the other players issue that you do not run the answers to the things you find issues with.

[MeowZeDung]

In a three color commander without green like Kelsien, the Plague I would absolutely run all relevant 2 cmc signets and talismans IF your goal is to play your commander ahead of curve and you don't own moxen/crypt/vault. I run only 2 cmc rocks + sol ring and chromatic lantern in Kykar, Wind's Fury with lots of success.

If you don't really really want/need your general out ASAP, I'd focus more on getting lands onto the battlefield. How you do so varies depending on the deck. Walking Atlas, Wayfarer's Bauble, Solemn Simulacrum, Myriad Landscape, and Burnished Hart are all budget friendlyish options.

[Mimicvat]

I would put a Mox Diamond in more lists than I would a Mana Crypt. Realistically, fast mana doesn't cause an issue, unless someone is running it (and abusing it) vs people who are not running it. For most of my list's, the 2 colorless mana gets split between two different spells, or just to accelerate getting my commander out. Otherwise I need color mana to cast my spells. In that instance, ring/crypt/vault....aren't that good. Majority of the time, this mana is used to counteract the commander tax, so I can stay in the game, vs being put further behind. Sol Ring skews games? Run Disenchant. There is an answer for everything in the game, and it should not be the other players issue that you do not run the answers to the things you find issues with.

Respectfully disagree. Having mana crypt and friends leads to explosive starts, often before an opponent can react to it. Disenchant destroys the mana rock, but doesn't necessarily stop the early start. Likewise "blow up their overpowered T1 play by giving up your own second turn" isn't a great argument for why the T1 play is not overpowered. The fact that the vast majority of cEDH decks, and the majority of EDH decks with the budget for it, simply put in these rocks tells me that there is an inbalance of power between these cards and other cards. Rather than having everyone run it, I side with having no one run it. Much like many EDH groups decide not to run combos because they don't want to dedicate so many slots in their decks to combo disruption or don't want to crowd out weaker strategies - if people are not running the combos those cards can be other things, and if there is less combo or less potent combo then there is room for other strategies.

Other groups don't do this. If you think otherwise than myself thats fine, but theres no position here for a high horse from which indisputable truths about the game can be dispensed.

[pokken]

Just my two cents but you guys are basically just repeating 10 years of discussions on banning fast Mana and there's a thread on it in rules iirc. If not could start one

It's a complicated issue with lots of angles to consider.

In the context of this thread the fast Mana has real serious implications for how good signet type rocks are. I suspect that many decks would be better off not playing 2 cmc rocks in a world without any possibility of hitting them turn one off a crypt. They definitely get significantly worse and just hitting your land drops gets better