Is Lazav 1.0 worth making now?

Sachi
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Post by Sachi » 3 years ago

So does the new rule change that basically says Commanders hit the graveyard first and can then be moved to the command zone mean that [Lazav, Dimir Mastermind] can copy them in response? Or does it being a state based action mean that the commander moves to the command zone before it can be targeted? I have not seen it mentioned in discussions regarding the rule change so I assume it's a no go.
Also, just out of curiosity, how viable do you think Lazav 1.0 can be in the current environment?

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Commanders hitting the graveyard does mean you get a Lazav trigger to copy them, yes. I wouldn't say it shoots Lazav into being a cEDH commander or anything, but it certainly is a nice buff.

In terms of the general environment... the viability of Lazav is pretty much always going to depend on the sort of creatures your opponents are running. If you're playing against a bunch of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyres and Avacyn, Angel of Hopes, then Lazav is going to look insane. If your opponents aren't playing creatures or just ETB value creatures like Eternal Witness, then Lazav is going to be pretty meh. My experience is that the latter is more common than the former, but it's definitely a thing that varies by meta.

Speaking more broadly, Clone decks are certainly fun and adaptable, and they do a good job of adapting to the power level of the table. However, you're also giving up the ability to have synergy within your own deck, since you don't know what things your opponents will have to copy. My experience is that synergy is usually pretty valuable... but, again, Lazav is certainly strong if you can copy something scary. Hexproof is a very powerful keyword when you can throw it on something your opponents really want to kill. So: fun deck for a casual meta, but too inconsistent to make into something really high-powered.

Sachi
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Post by Sachi » 3 years ago

Thank you for your informative reply! I'm excited that Lazav can now copy commanders when they die and I am surprised it has not been mentioned in the recent discussions I have seen. I do have an extreme weakness for clones but I agree it's pretty hit or miss depending on what others are playing.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I think he's definitely a lot better when you can clone overpowered commanders, but he still suffers from a lot of awkwardness - especially the mana cost.

Unfortunately I think most Lazav decks are going to have to be UB control with most of the energy focused on controlling the board, and perhaps binning incidentally with stuff like Windfall and Dark Deal. Because his mana cost is so dang slow but he's rather resilient you're likely going to want to play a game where you wrath before you play Lazav.

Indestructible effects and regeneration are very good with him since it lets you say, Life's Finale with him out, and sweepers are generally the most efficient way to clean up the board.

Generally I'd approach him as "build UB control, leave 10 slots for things that interact positively with Lazav."

It's probably a good idea to have a way to close out the game even if it's just fatties like Jin Gitaxias/Consecrated Sphinx/Nezahal/etc.

Reanimation effects are pretty good with him too since you're likely going to fill everyone's yards.

Sachi
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Post by Sachi » 3 years ago

I'm being very careful not to make new decks unless I'm really, really, interested because I already have 5+ keeper decks. I may experiment with Lazav in a mutate/clone deck due to the many shenanigans that could take place. However, I'm leaning more towards a temur than a sultai mutate deck. It's all rather theoretical since I haven't been able to play paper magic. 😫. Thanks for your response!

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

As a Lazav player, he's never going to be top tier. His deck is very much, in almost every form, dependent on what your opponents are playing for a general benchmark. In that respect it makes him a great deck to play with a ton of variety in game states, and he scales well to whatever you're playing against. So it's hard to get yourself into a place where there's saltiness against you.

All this being said my build is very themed, so winning is not my first priority. He does what I want him to, but he's very much not the sort of commander that will be competitive against every table ever. So....depends what you wanna do with him I suppose.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

Sachi
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Post by Sachi » 3 years ago

Thank you for your reply! I've made Dimir clone decks in the past with various commanders and I definitely agree that it depends on what your opponents are playing. It's spectacular when playing against The Ur-Dragon. Not so much against Inalla.

I have seen your Lazav deck and it is amazingly flavorful! I think it's the artwork and themes of the Dimir color pie that really appeal to me but somehow the blue and black decks I make are not as much fun for my opponents or for me. I even try to keep the steal effects to a minimum!

By the way, I have a Varina deck with a similar play style as yours. I love that deck! And I really enjoy your primer. Thank you for that.

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Sachi wrote:
3 years ago
Thank you for your reply! I've made Dimir clone decks in the past with various commanders and I definitely agree that it depends on what your opponents are playing. It's spectacular when playing against The Ur-Dragon. Not so much against Inalla.

I have seen your Lazav deck and it is amazingly flavorful! I think it's the artwork and themes of the Dimir color pie that really appeal to me but somehow the blue and black decks I make are not as much fun for my opponents or for me. I even try to keep the steal effects to a minimum!

By the way, I have a Varina deck with a similar play style as yours. I love that deck! And I really enjoy your primer. Thank you for that.
You're very welcome! Changes coming for Varina shortly with Core Set, there's some great new stuff to add. Feel free to chime in if you like too - I like my threads to be think tanks, so if you have any suggestions or build variants feel free to share.

I'm called to Dimir myself, it tends to be the two colours I build around most, whether I add a third or not. It's clearly where my heart lies.

I think with Lazav it's easy enough to keep it fairly simple and play a little control with a counter and removal suite as well as some board presence, or you can go the mill route. You don't even need to lean too heavily either way, he's a great commander for just sitting back and waiting for things to hit the graveyard. I still remember being super bamboozled by a Lazav deck while I was playing my Bruna, the Fading Light build. The Lazav player closed out the game after copying an Avacyn, Angel of Hope he milled and just cut the table to shreds. It was pretty awesome.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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