RULES UPDATE - Death Triggers on Commanders

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 3 years ago

Literally just saw this from Shivam on Twitter, will update as I get more info.

Edit #1 - This will be with the M21 update. They will trigger dies and exile triggers when they die and go to the Command zone, per Channel Fireball.

Edit #2 -


Edit #3 -
https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2020 ... -triggers/
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Post by umtiger » 3 years ago

I like this update to the rules. Intuitively, it could have worked like this from the beginning.

This change makes some legendary creatures more attractive. But it shouldn't be a big thing for most of the legendary creatures that people already use heavily and build around their death triggers.

For instance, I'm a Child of Alara player and I'm still going to let him go to the straight to the graveyard more often than not.
1.) Commander tax adds up.
and
2.) Players have been building around death triggers + reanimation. So while the rules change is a boost, it might not affect decks structurally.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Oh I posted in the rules subforum :)

Nice. It seems fair to me that commanders should trigger Vicious Shadows and Grave Pact and so on. Just more natural and intuitively fair.

It's possible there are some commanders that are busted with this ruling, but I can't think of that many that have Leaves the Battlefield style triggers that are likely to be horrendous.

Maybe there's some Derevi, Empyrial Tactician shenanigans?

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I like the rule change based mostly on the idea that they don't have to print things worded like Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero and also don't need to withhold printing things like Elenda, the Dusk Rose. Basically, it frees them up to print Legends that work "right" in all formats so we can get more "Dies" legends.

I am mostly curious on what the actual wording is and whether it creates any weird loopholes. Presumably in conjunction with other replacement effects.

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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

This is something that gets weird stares every time I explain it to new players so I am very glad it changed. Death triggers get marginally better but stuff like Skullclamp and Grave Pact are already great cards.

I don't think anyone is busted in terms of legends. Child of Alara, Roalesk, Apex Hybrid and Elenda, the Dusk Rose are much better commanders now, but Child is the only one of mild concern - the other two can just now compete with the other good stuff in those colors. The Dragon Spirits (Kokusho, the Evening Star et al) and Tuktuk the Explorer are functional commanders although probably not good. Anax, Hardened in the Forge is slightly more playable. Iname as One and Iname, Life Aspect are more functional now too - but probably still not wildly playable.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

On a side note if they implement this rule on MTGO it will make life WAAAAY better for cards like Feather, the Redeemed since getting actively asked every time you send the commander to another zone just cleans up a lot of the rules awkwardness on MTGO where you have to kinda pre-set it.

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Post by KitsuLeif » 3 years ago

Soo... Syr Konrad, the Grim will trigger twice now, correct? Once when the Commander hits the graveyard and again when you decide to move him to the Command Zone. Me likey.

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Post by Feyd_Ruin » 3 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
3 years ago
Soo... Syr Konrad, the Grim will trigger twice now, correct? Once when the Commander hits the graveyard and again when you decide to move him to the Command Zone. Me likey.
It depends on how they do it, but there's a good chance.

They could change the rules and errata how "dies" works, meaning the cards still go straight to the command zone, but all the previous triggers see this as "dying" anyways. In that case, no.

Most of the other ways would lead to a yes, however. I could see them changing it so that the card goes to the graveyard and then you can choose to put it into your command zone, or you can move it from exile/gy as a special action, or some kind of state-based effect. Basically, any way that it does go to the graveyard and then to the command zone, Konrad sees both.
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

The most intuitive way for this to happen is indeed putting the commander card into graveyard or exile FIRST and THEN moving it to command as a special action.

And, hey, that makes commanders with these abilities more intuitive in how they work in the first place, so I say bravo!
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Post by Maluko » 3 years ago

No... please tell me they didn't...

Why, why would the RC do this, why?? They're your commanders! They're the heroes of your story! They are not supposed to die!! The flavor was beautiful, they just get temporarily knocked out so they can enter the field again later...

So what, are we all necromancers now?

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Post by cryogen » 3 years ago

OP updated with further explanation from Toby. They act like tokens, going to the graveyard but as a state based effect going to the command zone (if you choose to put them there). Tp trigger goes on the stack but no way to interact with them while in the graveyard.
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Post by KitsuLeif » 3 years ago

cryogen wrote:
3 years ago
OP updated with further explanation from Toby. They act like tokens, going to the graveyard but as a state based effect going to the command zone (if you choose to put them there). Tp trigger goes on the stack but no way to interact with them while in the graveyard.
So, Syr Konrad will trigger twice? :D
Would be awesome.

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Post by cryogen » 3 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
3 years ago
cryogen wrote:
3 years ago
OP updated with further explanation from Toby. They act like tokens, going to the graveyard but as a state based effect going to the command zone (if you choose to put them there). Tp trigger goes on the stack but no way to interact with them while in the graveyard.
So, Syr Konrad will trigger twice? :D
Would be awesome.
Probably? I'm also curious about Fool's Demise. I'm not a judge but I know there are some cards that don't check to see if a card is still in a particular zone. I can't think of the specific card but some O-Ring type card doesn't can pull a Commander out of the command zone if it got exiled. The way Fool's Demise is worded it doesn't seem to check that the enchanted creature is still in the graveyard when the trigger resolves.

Maybe @JqlGirl or @papa_funk can weigh in?
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

cryogen wrote:
3 years ago
Probably? I'm also curious about Fool's Demise. I'm not a judge but I know there are some cards that don't check to see if a card is still in a particular zone. I can't think of the specific card but some O-Ring type card doesn't can pull a Commander out of the command zone if it got exiled. The way Fool's Demise is worded it doesn't seem to check that the enchanted creature is still in the graveyard when the trigger resolves.

Maybe JqlGirl or papa_funk can weigh in?
So, I haven't seen the in depth details but assuming you can still choose to leave the commander in the graveyard then Fool's Demise will work fine. If we only have the option of treating them as tokens, it will disappear to command zone before the trigger can resolve.

Tokens essentially are gone before anything can resolve. They might be gone before the triggers even go on the stack but I am not sure offhand because either way it doesn't matter. Assuming you still have the option to leave them in the graveyard you can still do Fool's Demise tactics. I don't know the full details of the change offhand though. As an example, Skullclamp will see a token die and still go on the stack but the token is long gone before the trigger to draw two will ever resolve. In the past putting Skullclamp on a commander wasn't really a viable thing because you would have to leave them in the graveyard to get the draw but with this change its a positive change for commander + clamp. Some other examples of things to put on commanders that would be useful now that were hard in the past would be Deathrender and Pattern of Rebirth. In both of these cases letting the commander die and then go to command zone would be a positive new way to play.
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Post by MonoRedMage » 3 years ago

Maluko wrote:
3 years ago
No... please tell me they didn't...

Why, why would the RC do this, why?? They're your commanders! They're the heroes of your story! They are not supposed to die!! The flavor was beautiful, they just get temporarily knocked out so they can enter the field again later...

So what, are we all necromancers now?
So think of it as a faked death lol.

Smh so many people overreact to minor changes. It's only a small rules difference, it just makes more cards possible to use...

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Post by Feyd_Ruin » 3 years ago

cryogen wrote:
3 years ago
I'm also curious about Fool's Demise. I'm not a judge but I know there are some cards that don't check to see if a card is still in a particular zone.
It can't track it across multiple zones. It can find it in the graveyard, but if it moves again it's gone.
You can either leave it in your graveyard to let Fool's Demise work, or SBE it into your Command Zone and let Fool's Demise fail to return it.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

cryogen wrote:
3 years ago
KitsuLeif wrote:
3 years ago
cryogen wrote:
3 years ago
OP updated with further explanation from Toby. They act like tokens, going to the graveyard but as a state based effect going to the command zone (if you choose to put them there). Tp trigger goes on the stack but no way to interact with them while in the graveyard.
So, Syr Konrad will trigger twice? :D
Would be awesome.
Probably? I'm also curious about Fool's Demise. I'm not a judge but I know there are some cards that don't check to see if a card is still in a particular zone. I can't think of the specific card but some O-Ring type card doesn't can pull a Commander out of the command zone if it got exiled. The way Fool's Demise is worded it doesn't seem to check that the enchanted creature is still in the graveyard when the trigger resolves.

Maybe JqlGirl or papa_funk can weigh in?
That suggests it is a second zone change. Which means Fool's Demise won't track it to the command zone (but you can just leave it in the graveyard anyway).

If that is the case (and another reason I want to see the rule): this means Banishing Light and friends might be "fixed" now. As would things like It That Betrays and Guile when dealing with commanders. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself before seeing the actual rules but I sincerely hope this change alleviates some of the rules nonsense with those cards.

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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Yeah, my first thought was that Banishing Light and similar 'fixed' O-ring effects will now be full removals on Commanders. Likewise, Norin the Wary can't blink off and hide in the Command Zone for his trigger (for the small corner cases where that matters).

I feel this is rather good, because trying to explain which cards would track Commanders going to the CZ and which wouldn't, was a rather mite annoying. This may make Stifle effects ever so slightly better now... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm more intrigued to see which Commanders might get a resurgeance of life from this change... Could Elenda, the Dusk Rose be more playable now? Iname, Life Aspect? Roalesk, Apex Hybrid ?

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

bobthefunny wrote:
3 years ago
I feel this is rather good, because trying to explain which cards would track Commanders going to the CZ and which wouldn't, was a rather mite annoying. This may make Stifle effects ever so slightly better now... but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I agree about the explanation aspect definitely. Though, none of the things where this changes functionality really does much with triggers so I wouldn't expect Stifle effects to do a whole lot.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I think the implication is if people are incentivized to put the commanders in exile (so you could get them back) you could stifle them coming back which is savage.

Feels very corner case to me tho

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Post by Yatsufusa » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
So, I haven't seen the in depth details but assuming you can still choose to leave the commander in the graveyard then Fool's Demise will work fine. If we only have the option of treating them as tokens, it will disappear to command zone before the trigger can resolve.

Tokens essentially are gone before anything can resolve. They might be gone before the triggers even go on the stack but I am not sure offhand because either way it doesn't matter. Assuming you still have the option to leave them in the graveyard you can still do Fool's Demise tactics. I don't know the full details of the change offhand though. As an example, Skullclamp will see a token die and still go on the stack but the token is long gone before the trigger to draw two will ever resolve. In the past putting Skullclamp on a commander wasn't really a viable thing because you would have to leave them in the graveyard to get the draw but with this change its a positive change for commander + clamp. Some other examples of things to put on commanders that would be useful now that were hard in the past would be Deathrender and Pattern of Rebirth. In both of these cases letting the commander die and then go to command zone would be a positive new way to play.
My mental gymnastics for tokens is when they hit the graveyard, all the triggers go on stack, then a "state-based action/trigger" kicks-in putting a "Token ceases to exist" trigger on top of the stack, and then immediately resolving that trigger before any priority is given because it is state-based. Only after that is anything else allowed to resolve.

So I'm getting the impression that "Token ceases to exist" is simply replaced with "Commander leaves for Command Zone".

I'm one of the few people who play Ryusei, the Falling Star as Commander with the purpose of triggering his ability (Repercussion being a thing). I had measures in the form of Grim Lavamancer and Relic of Progenitus to exile Ryusei for multiple uses, although I don't actually recall succeeding spectacularly with it (might have done it before but probably didn't manage to get Repercussion out so it was just a boring double wipe at best).

This change is pretty huge because it essentially removes an entire hoop I need to jump through. Mono-Red isn't exactly stellar at tutoring and I can resort to essentially producing huge mana and triggering the Commander several times if need be instead of only having to resort to the multitude of tricks like Helm of the Host and/or my damage doublers (for one-shots in case all else fails). Sure the main barrier of Repercussion being the only effect of its kind is still there (and it basically still fails if it isn't there), but at the very least past that point it has become much, much more flexible to pull the stunts.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 years ago

I hope they have designed Commander Legends with this new rule in mind to avoid weird templates like the new Gerrard

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Post by KitsuLeif » 3 years ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
3 years ago
I hope they have designed Commander Legends with this new rule in mind to avoid weird templates like the new Gerrard
I wouldn't get my hopes up for this. Sets get designed for around 2-3 years and last changes can be made around one year before release. I doubt that the RC was involved in the design of Commander Legends and I also doubt that they planned this rule change for longer than a year.

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Post by Maluko » 3 years ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
3 years ago
I hope they have designed Commander Legends with this new rule in mind to avoid weird templates like the new Gerrard
That template isn't actually all that weird. It prevents you from returning Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero to the battlefield with its own ability. Could they have done it another way? Yes, they could. But it doesn't make it weird or a corner case. Underworld Cerberus is phrased in a similar way, for example.

To add a bit to the discussion. I understand the change for gameplay reasons. I've had to explain many times to other players that a commander dying is a replacement effect and doesn't trigger death triggers. It has never been an intuitive rule, especially for new players. Additionally, it has led to many miscountings when mass removal spells are played, because, again, players count commanders for death triggers even if they are aware it is a replacement effect. But from a flavor perspective, it makes no sense. Kamigawa dragons trigger those abilities when they die because it symbolizes the blessings provided by a star when it falls. You can't just strategically kill your hero to trigger its effect and retcon it like nothing happened! Come on, Rules Committee! 😒

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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
3 years ago
ilovesaprolings wrote:
3 years ago
I hope they have designed Commander Legends with this new rule in mind to avoid weird templates like the new Gerrard
I wouldn't get my hopes up for this. Sets get designed for around 2-3 years and last changes can be made around one year before release. I doubt that the RC was involved in the design of Commander Legends and I also doubt that they planned this rule change for longer than a year.
On the flip side, I doubt that the RC wasn't consulted in the design of Commander Legends, since they've been consistently consulted about every other Commander release, and even non-commander releases like Companion. It also wouldn't have had to be a year. The Commander Legends design would have been locked sometime around the end of last year, so they only would have been sitting on this change for 6 months or so. And I can easily see Wizards requesting them to hold off on making the change for a bit, just to allow there to be less of a gap between "major change that opens design space" and "actual use of the design space".

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