RULES UPDATE - Death Triggers on Commanders

[Wallycaine]

While not mentioned, how does this new rule interact with Oblation i.e. tuck effect? As in, does the commander gets shuffled into the library THEN return to command zone? I can't think of a trigger that happens when a creature gets shuffled at the moment, but assuming there is, will this rule eventually apply to it?

When moving to a hidden zone, such as the library and hand, it still works as a replacement effect, rather than a statebased action.

[Cyberium]

While not mentioned, how does this new rule interact with Oblation i.e. tuck effect? As in, does the commander gets shuffled into the library THEN return to command zone? I can't think of a trigger that happens when a creature gets shuffled at the moment, but assuming there is, will this rule eventually apply to it?

When moving to a hidden zone, such as the library and hand, it still works as a replacement effect, rather than a statebased action.

What about Mutate? Will the creatures go to GY/Exile accordingly, while only the commander return to command zone?

[WizardMN]

While not mentioned, how does this new rule interact with Oblation i.e. tuck effect? As in, does the commander gets shuffled into the library THEN return to command zone? I can't think of a trigger that happens when a creature gets shuffled at the moment, but assuming there is, will this rule eventually apply to it?

When moving to a hidden zone, such as the library and hand, it still works as a replacement effect, rather than a statebased action.

What about Mutate? Will the creatures go to GY/Exile accordingly, while only the commander return to command zone?

Only the commander card is allowed to move via the state based action. So, the functionality is basically the same as now except the commander actually hits the graveyard for a split second in that case. Interestingly, this makes the fact that the current "mutated commanders trigger 'dies' effects" a bit more intuitive since now the entire pile hits the graveyard and only then does the commander move,

[Cyberium]

When moving to a hidden zone, such as the library and hand, it still works as a replacement effect, rather than a statebased action.

What about Mutate? Will the creatures go to GY/Exile accordingly, while only the commander return to command zone?

Only the commander card is allowed to move via the state based action. So, the functionality is basically the same as now except the commander actually hits the graveyard for a split second in that case. Interestingly, this makes the fact that the current "mutated commanders trigger 'dies' effects" a bit more intuitive since now the entire pile hits the graveyard and only then does the commander move,

One of Mutate Commanders' weakness was that the entire stack would be moved to command zone. This rule unintentionally (or perhaps intentional?) buffs the mutate legends, especially Nethroi, Apex of Death, who could now repeatedly bring back the mutate stack from the dead.

[WizardMN]

I think that speaks to a misunderstanding of the current rules (or I don't know what your comment is trying to say). There is one situation where the entire pile moves to the command zone: Leadership Vacuum. That's it. And that still works the same way going forward.

Even now, without the new rule, you still put every card in the pile *except* the commander into whatever zone it is supposed to go to. Nethroi works the same as it always did in this context.

This weird quirk, which I alluded to above, already allowed things like Child of Alara to trigger when going to the command zone as long as it was mutated because part of the pile went to the graveyard. Which is weird and unintuitive in itself.

[KitsuLeif]

I really like the rules change, but so many people have misconceptions about what is working and what isn't working anymore now. I wished that the RC would clarify that cards like Grave Betrayal still won't work if the Commander that died moved into the Command Zone. I had a lot of conversations with people who were or still are convinced that the rules change would mean that those cards are working with Commanders as well now.
And I feel like it hasn't been communicated well enough that the SBAs are checked immediately after the Commander hit the graveyard/exile, so before any triggered ability could be put on the stack.

[WizardMN]

While I have seen the same thing that really points to either a) players not realizing this is a State Based Action or b) not realizing when State Based Actions are checked. I suppose it could also be c) not realizing the State Based Action represents a zone change.

'A' is really the only one that they have a whole lot of control over because it is something they can work on communicating better but even then, it is part of the article detailing the rules update so I am not sure what more they could do to communicate it.

They aren't really here to explain how the other 24 state based actions work so it doesn't seem to make sense to explain how this one works either.

A quick explanation that covers nearly every scenario: "If a trigger occurs from the Commander moving to the Graveyard or Exile, and that trigger wants to perform an action on the commander card in the zone it went to, the trigger will not find it if the owner chooses to move it to the command zone. If the spell or ability looking for it in exile or the graveyard to perform an action on it is part of the same spell or ability that put it into that zone, it can find it since that spell or ability is still resolving."

This shorthound explains how Grave Betrayal and Marchesa (don't) work (they are both triggers) while also explaining that Necromantic Selection and Thieves' Auction can still get commanders since the effect that exiled them is the same effect trying to get them back.

[cryogen]

This shorthound explains how Grave Betrayal and Marchesa (don't) work (they are both triggers) while also explaining that Necromantic Selection and Thieves' Auction can still get commanders since the effect that exiled them is the same effect trying to get them back.

Will they though? The zone change from graveyard to Command Zone is immediate so the general won't be in the same zone where it went to.

[KitsuLeif]

This shorthound explains how Grave Betrayal and Marchesa (don't) work (they are both triggers) while also explaining that Necromantic Selection and Thieves' Auction can still get commanders since the effect that exiled them is the same effect trying to get them back.

Will they though? The zone change from graveyard to Command Zone is immediate so the general won't be in the same zone where it went to.

They work because spells are resolved completely, before any SBAs are checked.

[cryogen]

Good to know. Stupid rules....

[KitsuLeif]

Get your Roon now before it spikes, I guess xD

[Myllior]

That title reminds me of this Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal comic, because the answer is unequivocally "No". If Roon's price spikes it will be for the same reason as Kokusho; a fear of missing out on a card at its current price rather than any actual reflection of increased card power.

Regardless, it's still a buff worth pointing out, so I'm glad the video did. Roon was quite outclassed by the printing of the abomination known as Chulane, so gaining a small buff through a semi-unique* set of interactions is neat.

*Semi-unique in the sense that, while it can be replicated by cards like Mistmeadow Witch, Roon is the only card of which I'm aware that offers this effect in the command zone.

[pokken]

Stifling commander return triggers is probably the foulest side effect of this wording. I hope that it doesn't become an accepted practice.

[tstorm823]

Stifling commander return triggers is probably the foulest side effect of this wording. I hope that it doesn't become an accepted practice.

It's unlikely to become a thing, only because people are going to send to the command zone rather than risk it. You don't have to ever Stifle the return trigger, you just need people to know that you can.

[freelunch]

I think the biggest thing that will prevent Stifling the return trigger from being common is the relative rarity of Stifle effects. I always want more of them!

[Sheldon]

While not mentioned, how does this new rule interact with Oblation i.e. tuck effect? As in, does the commander gets shuffled into the library THEN return to command zone? I can't think of a trigger that happens when a creature gets shuffled at the moment, but assuming there is, will this rule eventually apply to it?

No, it's still just a replacement effect.

[DirkGently]

I totally missed the Mistmeadow Witch interaction. A few months ago I was trying to figure out something similar, but the vast majority of cards with that effect didn't work because the commander could just be moved to the command zone. That's no longer true. Very interesting.

Obviously they can still move to the command zone, but turning mistmeadow into a self-protecting 2-drop that "kills" a commander for 4 mana is pretty insane for slow control strats.

Like, y'know.....Phelddagrif....

Hmmm....

Ok, a quick list of cards that got a lot spicier in my estimation:

• angel of condemnation
• astral drift
• astral slide
• galepowder mage
• mistmeadow witch
• mystifying maze
• planar guide
• roon of the hidden realm
• skybind
• voidwalk
• vanish into memory
• kaya, ghost assassin

There's lots of others that are more single-shot effects, and thus more likely your opponents would sniff them out and go to the command zone instead. Whereas with repeatable effects, that paranoia might not be affordable and they might have to just hope you can't stifle.

Vanish and planar guide are single-shot, but they're super strong to stifle so I threw those in too.

[Wallycaine]

To me, it's definitely an unfortunate result of the change. It's also an awkward guessing game, because if someone just uses Roon you have to decide if the risk of them having a stifle is worth having the commander killed. I would probably call that bluff a lot, as I'm doubtful people will find running stifle effects actually worth it for that case. There's also, as mentioned, a limited number of them. But it's definitely something that depends on the particular deck, as there's decks that can't risk a 1% chance of them having a stifle.

[pokken]

Stifling commander return triggers is probably the foulest side effect of this wording. I hope that it doesn't become an accepted practice.

It's unlikely to become a thing, only because people are going to send to the command zone rather than risk it. You don't have to ever Stifle the return trigger, you just need people to know that you can.

I sure won't be sending commanders to the zone on slow blinks. Not once.

I'll always risk it and it is proper to do so. Your odds of winning when someone can repeatedly kill your commander so easily are not much better than if you lose it permanently. Excepting a few options like maelstrom wanderer who is happy to be reset heh.

I think if someone uses this interaction on the regular to gotcha people it will lead to me not playing with them.

I feel like this is a corner case they can fix pretty easily by making the commander state based action also check on upkeep (perhaps only from exile, since going to the bin is a different type of risk).

[Cyberium]

Oh goodness, more power to the blue. How many ways in other colors do we have that could stop Stifle effect?

[pokken]

Oh goodness, more power to the blue. How many ways in other colors do we have that could stop Stifle effect?

Veil of Summer doesn't even work because the stifled trigger is not controlled by you.

Basically nothing can interact with either the activated abilities that do the exiling or the spells/abilities that stifle them except blue.

[Crazy Monkey]

There are also turn ending effects in colorless and red which could be used, but those will be less common outside of decks with Roon of the Hidden Realm or Mistmeadow Witch, which is likely where this would be most common.

[DirkGently]

So here's a weird interaction: if your commander is Skullbriar, the Walking Grave and you have Reyhan, Last of the Abzan on the battlefield, if skully dies and you send him to the CZ, you get 2x as many counters to throw around, right?

[Crazy Monkey]

I believe that would behave like The Ozolith and you would get both. With both in play, I believe that the end result would be counters on The Ozolith and another creature from Reyhan, Last of the Abzan. I believe that the Skullbriar, the Walking Grave player in my group runs both of these now.

[WizardMN]

So here's a weird interaction: if your commander is Skullbriar, the Walking Grave and you have Reyhan, Last of the Abzan on the battlefield, if skully dies and you send him to the CZ, you get 2x as many counters to throw around, right?

I believe that would behave like The Ozolith and you would get both. With both in play, I believe that the end result would be counters on The Ozolith and another creature from Reyhan, Last of the Abzan. I believe that the Skullbriar, the Walking Grave player in my group runs both of these now.

No. Reyhan only cares about a creature dying or going to the command zone from the battlefield. Going to the command zone from the graveyard won't do anything.