June 1 2020 rules changes

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maeos
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Post by maeos » 3 years ago

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... ncement?zz

So I guess this means that lutri remains banned.

With companion impacting every other format, wizards has decided to change how companions work by adding a 3 mana special action required to put them in your hand before casting.

I'm curious if this will impact companions in our format. Obviously for higher power level decks 3 mana can be life or death. But I'm wondering if this change has pushed people away from trying to jam a companion.

I for one have decided against making my Arabo + kaheera aggri kittens deck as the companion now basically costs 6. On the other hand I will be keeping my sisay + jegantha now deck intact.

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CommanderMaster999
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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 3 years ago

The real question is that enough to get lutri unbanned?

But you should still play with it that doesn't hurt are format too much

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Post by Sheldon » 3 years ago

https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2020 ... on-change/

TLDR: Companion will work exactly the same in Commander that it does in other formats (meaning paying the 3, etc.), save that it doesn't come from a sideboard.

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Post by cryogen » 3 years ago

CommanderMaster999 wrote:
3 years ago
The real question is that enough to get lutri unbanned?

But you should still play with it that doesn't hurt are format too much
I don't see how this changes Lutri. It wasn't banned for being too OP, it was banned because it was a free 8th card with zero downside. So now you have to pay 3 mana to sorcery speed tutor it into your hand. Yeah that makes it less flexible, but it still isn't a downside to having that free card.

The RC might decide to unban it and see what happens, but that sounds like a trial unban, and we saw what happened when they did that with Rofellos.
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Maluko
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Post by Maluko » 3 years ago

That's disappointing. I really liked the idea of replacing a card in your hand with your companion. Companions were rarely seen in casual level Commander games; now, they will probably become non-existent. Three generic mana is too steep a cost in my opinion for companions to become playable in virtually every format now, including Commander.

What's more surprising is that there are two new cards banned in Standard. Seriously, how many cards have been banned in recent years now? From the likes of this article, we're now at 15 cards banned in standard in just the last 3.5 years. 15 cards! I feel terrible for everyone that has been investing in Standard in recent years. Are people still confident enough in Wizards to continue investing in competitive Magic after this? Seriously, what is Play Design even doing at this point? They were formed with the purpose to avoid the massive bannings mistake that occurred in Kaladesh. Are they under so much pressure they can't properly test the power levels of cards? Talking about doing a terrible job...

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Post by Outcryqq » 3 years ago

Maluko wrote:
3 years ago
That's disappointing. I really liked the idea of replacing a card in your hand with your companion. Companions were rarely seen in casual level Commander games; now, they will probably become non-existent. Three generic mana is too steep a cost in my opinion for companions to become playable in virtually every format now, including Commander.
-snip--
For casual level commander, if you were planning on building/altering your deck around a companion, I don't think 3 extra generic mana is going to push you into unplayable territory - you were either playing for a gimmick, the deck restriction was easy for you to achieve, or the companion's ability was so attractive that you were willing to suffer the restriction. For example, my buddy playing Keruga, the Macrosage in Prime Speaker Zegana felt that it was an easy restriction, so why not use Keruga, even if it costs 3 more?

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Annoying, but I'm still jamming my ayli lurrus brew first chance I get. I wish we could play companions as intended maybe one damn time first? Ugh.

RIP yorion Lukka fires, though, holy hell they must hate that deck. Good thing I'm a wildcard-hoarding cheapskate. Cycling deck wiiiiins!
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote:
3 years ago
For casual level commander, if you were planning on building/altering your deck around a companion, I don't think 3 extra generic mana is going to push you into unplayable territory - you were either playing for a gimmick, the deck restriction was easy for you to achieve, or the companion's ability was so attractive that you were willing to suffer the restriction. For example, my buddy playing Keruga, the Macrosage in Prime Speaker Zegana felt that it was an easy restriction, so why not use Keruga, even if it costs 3 more?
It really will push it into unplayable territory. There's a wide gulf of wanting to play Horde of Notions Elemental Tribal and feeling like you get kind of a 'bonus' general with Jegantha for 5, and having a bonus 'general' with Jegantha for 8.

One of those could be construed to be a build up, the other is supposed to be a haymaker.

Or, if you're playing Arahbo Tribal cats and get a nice little bonus of +1/+1 from Kaheera for 3, or playing a the worst anthem in the game for 6.

Or if you wanted to recoup your expenditures on Umori after 4 creature casts instead of 7.

There is an opportunity cost to running these cards. "I was already going to meet the opportunity cost" is super rare, and even if you do, during a gameplay scenario, you would be hard pressed to want to cast any of the Companions for 3+ their mana cost.

Basically I'm saying, even if you did a pure Tribal Cats Arahbo and had Kaheera waiting for you outside the game, you will almost always have better ways to spend 6 mana, even if it's just casting Arahbo over and over again. Ditto for your friend's Zegana/Keruga deck; it will probably never be worth it to cast Keruga, just cast Zegana again, maybe play a Sol Ring in your deck instead of Keruga from outside the game.
Last edited by Sinis 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Maluko
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Post by Maluko » 3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote:
3 years ago
For casual level commander, if you were planning on building/altering your deck around a companion, I don't think 3 extra generic mana is going to push you into unplayable territory - you were either playing for a gimmick, the deck restriction was easy for you to achieve, or the companion's ability was so attractive that you were willing to suffer the restriction. For example, my buddy playing Keruga, the Macrosage in Prime Speaker Zegana felt that it was an easy restriction, so why not use Keruga, even if it costs 3 more?
That's a valid point. And I obviously can't argue for people to stop playing companions if their desire for self-expression goes beyond interacting with your opponents or winning the game. But other than that, from an efficiency perspective... I wonder how many times your buddy will be casting Keruga now. In other words, how many times do you think the deckbuilding cost will weigh in favor of an eight mana hippo? This is all the more relevant knowing that your buddy's commander is already a massive card draw engine.

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Post by Sheldon » 3 years ago

BTW, folks are getting hung up on "sideboard," which WotC uses in the announcement, but may not actually be supported by the CR update. "Sideboard" is shorthand for "Outside the game in tournament play." Let's see the new CR wording before worrying too much.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

At the level of efficiency I like to play at this essentially dooms companions and that suits me very well.

I don't think it means Lutri can be unbanned since it still has zero opportunity cost (goes in every RU deck 100% even if it's now much worse).

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Post by KitsuLeif » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
It really will push it into unplayable territory. There's a wide gulf of wanting to play Horde of Notions Elemental Tribal and feeling like you get kind of a 'bonus' general with Jegantha for 5, and having a bonus 'general' with Jegantha for 8.
But it doesn't cost . You can split the cost, by putting the Companion in your hand in one turn, then casting it in the next turn. It's not a "You have to cast it immediately, after you put it into your hand." You can still ramp in turn 1, put Jegantha in your hand on turn 2, cast it in turn 3 and use it in turn 4. That's far from unplayable if you asked me.
Last edited by KitsuLeif 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 years ago

Honestly i don't think this matter for casual EDH at all. You never have 3 to spare during the first turns? The sorcery speed is kinda a bummer, however.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

It's fine for like mid and low power, although I think it becomes more questionable there too.

Most of the time, for me anyway, Idyllic Tutor or Grim Tutor are not good enough for me to want to pay that much mana to find *the best card for the current board state* much less a card specific only to my strategy but not potentially doubling as an answer.

Generally speaking I think if you can afford to take a turn off to Idyllic Tutor then that's a good sign your meta will be OK to play companions in.

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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

I haven't built a companion deck yet, nor was I intending to, so this doesn't directly affect me. However, it will, most likely, make me less likely to build a companion deck in the future.

Overall, I'd say that the fundamental problem with companions (the extra card in hand) is still present. This does, however, significantly decrease the power level of the cards. Companion tax obviously makes then a weaker tempo play, and going into hand before they can be cast makes them more vulnerable to discard and wheel effects. There are still decks that are going to play the cards - I'd play Scornful Egotist as a companion if the deckbuilding cost were low enough - but the decks that are specifically built around a companion are going to take a significant hit. I'll imagine Kaheera, the Orphanguard will see roughly the same amount of play, while Gyruda, Doom of Depths and Obosh, the Preypiercer go down significantly.

Broadly speaking, 3 mana is roughly what I value a fair tutor at. Not costing a card is likely still much more powerful than having a variety of tutor targets, but it's not a terrible price otherwise.

I guess one other thing to note about the rules change is that it lets companions dodge Drannith Magistrate.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 3 years ago

I'm happy that this change came into effect. At least now there is a downside to your previously free card. Companion will always be a stupid mechanic in my eye's, but I feel like this is a step in the right direction. I still stand by the opinion that you cannot allow certain cards to come into the game from outside your library and other cards cannot do that.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

how long until the rest of TED is BANNED? no recopense to people that bought PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE PRODUCT. they only get back when they play computer game, and WOTC is RETCONING their own mechanics like a computer game nerf. guess magic is computer now. is total %$#%.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 3 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
how long until the rest of TED is BANNED? no recopense to people that bought PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE PRODUCT. they only get back when they play computer game, and WOTC is RETCONING their own mechanics like a computer game nerf. guess magic is computer now. is total %$#%.
Nothing major has been changed for commander. Companion was a new mechanic, and they are just bringing that mechanic into balance with the rest of the game. If you were playing a companion, its still legal, just a little slower.

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BeneTleilax
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

TED is still STANDARD SET tho. now cards are useless in their only real format. EDH cant keep their value esp. not after cyclonic rift doubling seasons silliness. only recompensed for virtual computer game e-cards because MAGIC IS COMPUTER GAME ARENA NOW.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
3 years ago
But it doesn't cost . You can split the cost, by putting the Companion in your hand in one turn, then casting it in the next turn. It's not a "You have to cast it immediately, after you put it into your hand." You can still ramp in turn 1, put Jegantha in your hand on turn 2, cast it in turn 3 and use it in turn 4. That's far from unplayable if you asked me.
Yes, you can split the cost, but... I frequently spend most or all my mana on my turns. Your scenario is also a little magic-Christmasland-y; how many games do you ramp on turn 1?

You're also telegraphing a lot of information when you pay 3 with the intent to play a companion next turn. Just retrieved your Keruga, the Macrosage from outside the game? Well, I hope your stuff has shroud.

I think pokken put it better than I could, quoted below: There's plenty of times when I'm not willing to pay 3 to tutor anything, never mind build with some restrictions and to 'tutor' from a pool of one.

All that said, I may be overreacting; I could just maindeck some of these cards. Play as companion, though? Absolutely not.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Most of the time, for me anyway, Idyllic Tutor or Grim Tutor are not good enough for me to want to pay that much mana to find *the best card for the current board state* much less a card specific only to my strategy but not potentially doubling as an answer.
That's pretty much how I feel about it, but, I'd find those cards even more offensive if I had to follow any one of the companions' build-restrictions.
ilovesaprolings wrote:
3 years ago
Honestly i don't think this matter for casual EDH at all. You never have 3 to spare during the first turns? The sorcery speed is kinda a bummer, however.
Generally? No. That's why Cultivate and Kodama's Reach and mana rocks are so popular.

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Post by KitsuLeif » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
Yes, you can split the cost, but... I frequently spend most or all my mana on my turns. Your scenario is also a little magic-Christmasland-y; how many games do you ramp on turn 1?
In green, it's quite often that I can ramp on turn 1. But even turn 2 is still good enough for casual games, isn't it?

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Post by UnNamed1 » 3 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
3 years ago
Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
Yes, you can split the cost, but... I frequently spend most or all my mana on my turns. Your scenario is also a little magic-Christmasland-y; how many games do you ramp on turn 1?
In green, it's quite often that I can ramp on turn 1. But even turn 2 is still good enough for casual games, isn't it?
Most games on turn 1 I have access to 3 or more mana.... at least I have access to 2. But thats how I build my decks. If I cannot by turn 2, cast something 4-5 cmc, then I should have mulliganned. Casual games still can easily have 4-5 cmc worth of mana available turn 2, so play some more dorks and spend 3 mana to get your companion into your hand.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

KitsuLeif wrote:
3 years ago
In green, it's quite often that I can ramp on turn 1. But even turn 2 is still good enough for casual games, isn't it?
My point is that I want to be doing stuff on my initial turns that isn't paying a 3-mana tax to have my companion AFTER I've paid for it in deckbuilding restrictions.

Once you consider that you could have just maindecked it and dodged the restrictions, they become a little more palatable, but, once you've maindecked it, you realize that there are just better cards to play in most cases.

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Post by UnNamed1 » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
KitsuLeif wrote:
3 years ago
In green, it's quite often that I can ramp on turn 1. But even turn 2 is still good enough for casual games, isn't it?
My point is that I want to be doing stuff on my initial turns that isn't paying a 3-mana tax to have my companion AFTER I've paid for it in deckbuilding restrictions.

Once you consider that you could have just maindecked it and dodged the restrictions, they become a little more palatable, but, once you've maindecked it, you realize that there are just better cards to play in most cases.
But the whole point of the change is to bring the power level of the mechanic "companion" into line with the rest of the game. It slows the game down, and if the data so far is anything to go by, this will cause the reliability to go down, as it makes it more of a gameplay choice to bring the card to your hand VS straight casting it. The only companion I am even playing is Zirda, the Dawnwaker in Kenrith, and its part of the 99 not as a companion.

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Post by Inkeyes22 » 3 years ago

Makes me sad that I opened a few companions. I will likely by zero boosters now, as I only wanted a few specific things but it is fun to crack a pack on occasion. The companions went from quirky to terrible pretty quick.

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