Ban List Update - Flash Banned

[cryogen]

Site crashed from traffic, so I'll update this with the proper announcement later.

But like title says, Flash is banned. Lutri is also banned like we knew, and companion mechanic in general works in Commander.

[JqlGirl]

https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2020 ... es-update/

Companion
When we first saw the companion mechanic, our immediate reaction was "well, this is cool; it won't work in Commander." But, looking at the mechanic, there was nothing problematic about it. It was actually the kind of thing we really like to encourage. Brew with restrictions! Since we want the rules of Commander to match up to Magic where possible and healthy for the format, we took a second look.

We still don't think Wishes and the other get-other-cards-from-outside-the-game are something we want in Commander. We outline our stance on wishes in the FAQ and none of the concerns we have with them applied here. The only issue was that the mechanic referred to outside the game. If the companion started in the Command Zone or Exile, it would have been fine. Since that's clearly an arbitrary mechanical distinction, how could we adjust the rules to reflect this?

It turns out that it was easy. The problem with all prior mechanics which used outside-the-game was their open-endedness. They brought cards in from a giant unbounded set. All we had to do was change one word in Rule 11:

11: Abilities which bring other card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Living Wish; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander.

Companion now works within the framework of Commander – it's bringing itself in – and nothing else changes. Similar mechanics will be fine in the future as long as they remain self-contained (though if we think they're problematic, we'll obviously take another look and ask ourselves why).

We recognize that this does let you go past the 100 card rule that is iconic to Commander. However, a single extra card you have to jump through serious hoops to get is philosophically okay in the same way that a tiny number of cards (like Relentless Rats) are able to violate the even-more-important singleton rule.

Lutri
That left Lutri. We hate the idea of banning a card prior to release. We gave serious consideration to announcing that the card would almost certainly be banned with Core 2021 and letting it be legal rather than break our stance that all cards should be given a chance.

The argument that finally won the day was that not everyone would see that announcement. Many people would buy a legal Lutri as it goes alongside every deck with red and blue in it. Knowing that it would certainly be banned, we were uncomfortable setting up those folks, who are in many ways our primary audience, for far greater disappointment. Better to bend our stance.

This is where we say that it was a one-time thing and we don't expect it to happen again, but that might not be entirely accurate. Wizards is free to explore weird spaces, and, as demonstrated here, those spaces may occasionally do something really problematic. If another card comes along that also does something novel that is incompatible with the format, we'll ban it immediately. Note that "stupidly powerful" is not novel; those cards will get their chance to prove themselves.

Flash
Speaking of exceptional decisions, we are banning Flash (the card, not the mechanic). Enough cEDH players who we trust have convinced us that it is the only change they need for the environment they seek to cultivate. Though they represent a small fraction of the Commander playerbase, we are willing to make this effort for them. It should not be taken as a signal that we are considering any kind of change in how we intend to manage the format; this is an extraordinary step, and one we are unlikely to repeat.

We use the banlist to guide players in how to approach the format and hope Flash's role on the list will be to signal "cheating things into play quickly in non-interactive ways isn't interesting, don't do that."

We believe Commander is still best as a social-focused format and will not be making any changes to accommodate tournament play. Taking responsibility for your and your opponents' fun, including setting expectations with your group, is a fundamental part of the Commander philosophy. Organizers who want to move towards more untrusted games should consider adding additional rules or guidance to create the Commander experience they want to offer.

[cryogen]

Thanks @JqlGirl, I was about to update it.

[Myllior]

Wow it finally happened. I mean, after the last ban announcement it seemed apparent that this announcement would be do-or-die for Flash, but no matter how likely it may or may not have seemed, it's still something altogether different to see it happen. A lot of claims have been made about what will or won't happen following a Flash ban, so it'll be interesting to see how things develop.

Particularly, I'll be interested to see how the cEDH metagame evolves in response to this. A claim I've read a few times is that the duality of Flash decks with Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact decks pushes Stax decks out of the format, so I'm most interested in seeing how they develop within the metagame as a result of this.

I think we're in for some interesting times; I'm looking forward to it.

[Hermes_]

Naturally cEDH reddit is upset over the "tone" lol

[cryogen]

Wow it finally happened. I mean, after the last ban announcement it seemed apparent that this announcement would be do-or-die for Flash, but no matter how likely it may or may not have seemed, it's still something altogether different to see it happen. A lot of claims have been made about what will or won't happen following a Flash ban, so it'll be interesting to see how things develop.

Particularly, I'll be interested to see how the cEDH metagame evolves in response to this. A claim I've read a few times is that the duality of Flash decks with Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact decks pushes Stax decks out of the format, so I'm most interested in seeing how they develop within the metagame as a result of this.

I think we're in for some interesting times; I'm looking forward to it.

Agreed. I personally was in favor of rebanning Protean Hulk instead, but the cEDH players I spoke with believed Flash was more of a problem overall. So I guess we'll see what happens to their metagame as a result.

[Yatsufusa]

Naturally cEDH reddit is upset over the "tone" lol

In the recent year I started using Reddit for other hobbies (mostly because traditional forum formats like this are mostly dead and basically non-existent for some hobbies) and oh boy are the MTG sub-reddits blazing wildfires in general. The echo chamber for disliking the RC is tremendous there and it's a painful process of distilling the empty-rage to get the actual POV of people over there (to the point I mostly just don't bother).

Sometimes reading the comments get me annoyed enough to roll back here to vent off (as cordially as I can). I don't post there because that's the equivalent of dousing myself in gasoline in the middle of a wildfire (I'm not posting much here either because I'm personally on a general hiatus from the game as a whole).

I actually agree with them on some "negative" views on the RC, like that Sheldon is generally pretty isolated and hence his collection of data is pretty limited (too limited in fact). I personally gave that view in full force when Sheldon revealed he was shocked about the variety (and that Rule 0 doesn't really work if you walked into a GP/Magicfest-level scenario). But in classic empty-rage fashion, it's just bashing topped off with an extra serving of hypocrisy when they act as though their own isolated experiences are valid data because they're on a discussion platform.

No one over there talked about CAG at all. All complaints about Sheldon and his own bubble. Nothing about the exact measure the RC implemented because they've started to recognize they're pretty isolated. Granted, the CAG wasn't mentioned specifically at all in the announcement, but even then there's this:

"Enough cEDH players who we trust have convinced us that it is the only change they need for the environment they seek to cultivate."

If not the CAG (although I'm convinced they're involved, even if it's only as middlemen since I'd assume not all of the CAG are cEDH players), it's a statement that the RC has indeed reached out of their "bubble", but hey good news don't make for good gasoline, but "condescending tone" does.

When the CAG was introduced, I was skeptical (by nature, I'm the cautious type) about the selection (was not really into the social media / content-creator side of the game but I do recognize it's growth and a generation of players who are basically brought in by it), because media by nature is double-edged filter, but I said it's definitely a change that needed time to prove itself. Unfortunately I went into my hiatus soon after so I never caught up and analyzed over time, but here right now is something I caught and consider as a plus point. I won't make a sweeping conclusion as-of-yet mostly because of my lack of attention and that the format has always been a slow-moving titan anyway.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, as I said I just wanted to vent off as cordially as I can.

[cryogen]

Sheldon, the rest of the Rules Committee, and the CAG have indeed been talking quite frequently with players in the cEDH community - pretty much since the formation of the CAG and probably even longer. My suspicion is that they (the RC/CAG) have actually been seriously considering banning Flash based on the feedback they received, they just wanted to make sure that they could be reasonably sure the resulting metagame shift wouldn't just cause a "new Flash" to pop up, making the ban in vain.

I didn't mention it before, but I think what I like best about this announcement is that it feels like a complete announcement this time. With previous announcements sometimes I was left with additional questions, ones which eventually got answered, but questions all the same. This time around it feels like we got the full thought process.

[if4ko]

I'm very, very pleasantly surprised to see action taken this quickly, especially considering the RC's public statements were still pointing towards "cEDH is a small minority and we're still hesitant on making an exception for them". However, this was unequivocally the best thing for the health of the format and I'm glad the RC took action.

Flash simply wasn't fun for cEDH. Not only was it uninteractive, it was instant speed, so it actually went over most counter-based interaction. The card actively encouraged boring, unfun, uninteractive gameplay and effectively solved the format.

I don't see any cEDH-based ban movements taking hold in a majority the community. Thrasios and Tymna are fine cards (from how I see it, most legends that are banned are banned because of their oppressiveness or their place in the 99). They're indubitably powerful and flexible, but they aren't inherently broken by existing. Consult and Tainted Pact are fine cards. They can be used fairly as a Hail Mary of sorts, and they're more interactive than Flash. Thassa's Oracle is even fine too. I think the card's much less interactive than LabMan and I don't like it personally, but it can be used as a TDM tool as well and there's a lot of unused design space in the game to interact with it. Hell, even Flash was thought to be fine before Oracle pushed it over the edge.

I'd like to give a thank you to the RC and CAG for listening to the cEDH community this entire process. I personally didn't get a condescending or dismissive vibe from the ban post. As someone who plays both sides of the format, it was a necessary olive branch to offer. A Flash ban sends a message that Commander is a malleable, social format that's truly for everyone. It will bring the community together.

Well, aside from the elitists on both sides. But if you're trying to shut people out or tell people how to play Magic, we don't want you in our community.

[tstorm823]

Naturally cEDH reddit is upset over the "tone" lol

I made your sentence more efficient.

[RedCheese]

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

[Airi]

While I'm happy about the olive branch on cEDH, and hopefully this helps their metagame, I can't say I'm particularly pleased overall. I don't think companion is a particularly healthy mechanic to let free, especially not at the cost of bans since I still think Jegantha, the Wellspring might head that way over the next few sets.

[RxPhantom]

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

Niche status should never be a criterion for banning. This is the format for niche cards. What threshold of popularity would have saved it from such a ban? I have (had) it in a deck that revolves around abusing various creatures' death triggers, and it is (was) my favorite card in the deck because of sheer fun factor.

Obviously, I'm against the ban but I'm not going to spend too much time (aside from this post) pissing into the wind. cEDH players wanted to play at the highest power level, and in doing so found themselves playing a busted, solved, and stagnant format. Rather than show some initiative and manage their format themselves, they finally got their wish for someone else to do it. Joy.

I've made these points before, though. Hopefully I'll have the discipline to not repeat them again. I suppose there's a bright side: Flash lived in a deck that I'm struggling to optimize, so I guess a slot just opened up.

[cryogen]

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

I'd wager that cEDH players cared about Flash. Trying to marginalize them as "not playing EDH" is why there has been so much animosity over the years.

[Kelzam]

Thinking a new "Flash" won't pop up is foolhardy. By nature, being competitive and going out of one's way to play the best possible decks, lines of play and cards results in there always being decks that overshadow the rest. In a format as large as Commander, it is supremely easy for one to overshadow the rest. Demonic Consultation and Thassa's Oracle will soon become the new dead horse to beat. People want to say "Oh thank goodness now we don't have to keep hearing about Flash!" but it's never going to end. As long as cEDH remains the antithesis of Commander and is obstinate in it's disuse of Rule 0, they - collectively - will be a problem for the greater community.

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

I'd wager that cEDH players cared about Flash. Trying to marginalize them as "not playing EDH" is why there has been so much animosity over the years.

The "animosity" exists because they're the ones asserting themselves into conversations with casual players calling every other preview card "trash" or "uninteresting" because it doesn't fit into their narrow view of what is "good" in a casual format. The "animosity" exists because when trying to explain the concerns and ripples turning Commander competitive causes in the community or having a serious discussion, they post insulting meme images and gifs on Twitter to anyone who disagrees with them and majorly refuse to have a real discussion that doesn't use bad faith arguments or which doesn't come from the mouth of the RC's good weather friends like Jim. The "otherism" exists because they insist that the rules shouldn't apply to them - that we should ban niche cards for them, that they can't use Rule 0 like everyone else, that they should be treated equally as "EDH" players despite insisting on using the deck construction rules of the format and nothing else representative of it's intent, and yet bemoan not being considered EDH players. Don't misrepresent the core issues with the majority of their heard and seen presence that has lead to the so-called "animosity". When people are pushed, they understandably push back.

[Legend]

Thinking a new "Flash" won't pop up is foolhardy. By nature, being competitive and going out of one's way to play the best possible decks, lines of play and cards results in there always being decks that overshadow the rest. In a format as large as Commander, it is supremely easy for one to overshadow the rest. Demonic Consultation and Thassa's Oracle will soon become the new dead horse to beat. People want to say "Oh thank goodness now we don't have to keep hearing about Flash!" but it's never going to end. As long as cEDH remains the antithesis of Commander and is obstinate in it's disuse of Rule 0, they - collectively - will be a problem for the greater community.

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

I'd wager that cEDH players cared about Flash. Trying to marginalize them as "not playing EDH" is why there has been so much animosity over the years.

The "animosity" exists because they're the ones asserting themselves into conversations with casual players calling every other preview card "trash" or "uninteresting" because it doesn't fit into their narrow view of what is "good" in a casual format. The "animosity" exists because when trying to explain the concerns and ripples turning Commander competitive causes in the community or having a serious discussion, the post insulting meme images and gifs on Twitter to anyone who disagrees with them and majorly refuse to have a real discussion. The "otherism" exists because they insist that the rules shouldn't apply to them - that we should ban niche cards for them, that they can't use Rule 0 like everyone else, that they should be treated equally as "EDH" players despite insisting on using the deck construction rules of the format and nothing else representative of it's intent. Don't misrepresent the core issues with the majority of their presence that has lead to the so-called "animosity". When people are pushed, they push back.

We live whence the minority rules.

[if4ko]

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

I'd wager that cEDH players cared about Flash. Trying to marginalize them as "not playing EDH" is why there has been so much animosity over the years.

The "animosity" exists because they're the ones asserting themselves into conversations with casual players calling every other preview card "trash" or "uninteresting" because it doesn't fit into their narrow view of what is "good" in a casual format. The "animosity" exists because when trying to explain the concerns and ripples turning Commander competitive causes in the community or having a serious discussion, they post insulting meme images and gifs on Twitter to anyone who disagrees with them and majorly refuse to have a real discussion that doesn't use bad faith arguments or which doesn't come from the mouth of the RC's good weather friends like Jim. The "otherism" exists because they insist that the rules shouldn't apply to them - that we should ban niche cards for them, that they can't use Rule 0 like everyone else, that they should be treated equally as "EDH" players despite insisting on using the deck construction rules of the format and nothing else representative of it's intent, and yet bemoan not being considered EDH players. Don't misrepresent the core issues with the majority of their heard and seen presence that has lead to the so-called "animosity". When people are pushed, they understandably push back.

You compared the cEDH community to Nazis on Twitter. You don't get to talk about civility or toxicity.

[Kelzam]

I'd wager that cEDH players cared about Flash. Trying to marginalize them as "not playing EDH" is why there has been so much animosity over the years.

The "animosity" exists because they're the ones asserting themselves into conversations with casual players calling every other preview card "trash" or "uninteresting" because it doesn't fit into their narrow view of what is "good" in a casual format. The "animosity" exists because when trying to explain the concerns and ripples turning Commander competitive causes in the community or having a serious discussion, they post insulting meme images and gifs on Twitter to anyone who disagrees with them and majorly refuse to have a real discussion that doesn't use bad faith arguments or which doesn't come from the mouth of the RC's good weather friends like Jim. The "otherism" exists because they insist that the rules shouldn't apply to them - that we should ban niche cards for them, that they can't use Rule 0 like everyone else, that they should be treated equally as "EDH" players despite insisting on using the deck construction rules of the format and nothing else representative of it's intent, and yet bemoan not being considered EDH players. Don't misrepresent the core issues with the majority of their heard and seen presence that has lead to the so-called "animosity". When people are pushed, they understandably push back.

You compared the cEDH community to Nazis. You don't get to talk about civility or toxicity.

And as usual, y'all cherry pick to the extreme and latch onto the one single thing you can and regurgitate it ad nauseam when possible, because you lack any capability or desire to actually discuss outside of stamping your feet when you don't get your way. Thanks for proving my point, as you love to do so well.

Infraction for trolling. -Airi

[BeneTleilax]

I'm just glad that the RC and CAG listened to their actual players, over combative loudmouths on the internet.

[if4ko]

Don't mind Kelzam, folks. I'd be mad too if Sheldon himself disavowed my behavior and philosophy.

Infraction for trolling/flaming. -Airi

[RedCheese]

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

I'd wager that cEDH players cared about Flash. Trying to marginalize them as "not playing EDH" is why there has been so much animosity over the years.

You are dramatizing this abit too mutch by implying that im seperating both groups. Casual players didn't cared about Flash so thats why the Flash ban is a non issue from a casual player's eyes.

I never cared for Flash but not a fan of this precedent of a very minority having this amount of power to get the card banned. Imagine if Flash was a casual fan favourite and was used in fair ways?

I'm wondering why the cEDH players didn't made a house ban for Flash since they were very passionate about it, so assume players would hold their urge to using Flash and sue something else.

[UnNamed1]

Thinking a new "Flash" won't pop up is foolhardy. By nature, being competitive and going out of one's way to play the best possible decks, lines of play and cards results in there always being decks that overshadow the rest. In a format as large as Commander, it is supremely easy for one to overshadow the rest. Demonic Consultation and Thassa's Oracle will soon become the new dead horse to beat. People want to say "Oh thank goodness now we don't have to keep hearing about Flash!" but it's never going to end. As long as cEDH remains the antithesis of Commander and is obstinate in it's disuse of Rule 0, they - collectively - will be a problem for the greater community.

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

I'd wager that cEDH players cared about Flash. Trying to marginalize them as "not playing EDH" is why there has been so much animosity over the years.

The "animosity" exists because they're the ones asserting themselves into conversations with casual players calling every other preview card "trash" or "uninteresting" because it doesn't fit into their narrow view of what is "good" in a casual format. The "animosity" exists because when trying to explain the concerns and ripples turning Commander competitive causes in the community or having a serious discussion, they post insulting meme images and gifs on Twitter to anyone who disagrees with them and majorly refuse to have a real discussion that doesn't use bad faith arguments or which doesn't come from the mouth of the RC's good weather friends like Jim. The "otherism" exists because they insist that the rules shouldn't apply to them - that we should ban niche cards for them, that they can't use Rule 0 like everyone else, that they should be treated equally as "EDH" players despite insisting on using the deck construction rules of the format and nothing else representative of it's intent, and yet bemoan not being considered EDH players. Don't misrepresent the core issues with the majority of their heard and seen presence that has lead to the so-called "animosity". When people are pushed, they understandably push back.

I still think Protean Hulk is/was more of an issue than Flash. There isn't a "beating a dead horse" mentality, there is a lack of motivation to change. Personally I don't see either card you mentioned becoming an issue as that strategy is typically a mid-range grindy deck, not a turn 2 deck. cEDH is not a problem for the community, as EDH is meant to be fun. cEDH is having fun playing at the absolute highest level that you can. Just because you want to play Jank Snakes, doesn't mean someone else is wrong for finding a fully optimized consult list fun. It really isn't that easy to for a single deck to overshadow the rest, in a format this large, answers are developed. Most competitive players aren't toxic like you describe, in fact most I have talked to become quite helpful in discussing strategy and how to deal with threats. If you are playing strictly by the rules, then yes, you can't Rule 0, because it doesn't actually exist outside of a kitchen table setting. I see myself as an EDH player, and I have decks ranging from a power level 3 up to a power level 10. Simply because I have 2 "cEDH' decks does this mean I am no longer an EDH player?

[Airi]

Keep it civil folks. I get that people have strong feelings on the topic but insults will not be tolerated.

You don't need to like cEDH, Causal, 75% or any other form/power level of the game, but you do need to respect that there are players here from all walks of EDH.

[if4ko]

Almost no one that plays EDH cared about Flash anyways.

I'd wager that cEDH players cared about Flash. Trying to marginalize them as "not playing EDH" is why there has been so much animosity over the years.

You are dramatizing this abit too mutch by implying that im seperating both groups. Casual players didn't cared about Flash so thats why the Flash ban is a non issue from a casual player's eyes.

I never cared for Flash but not a fan of this precedent of a very minority having this amount of power to get the card banned. Imagine if Flash was a casual fan favourite and was used in fair ways?

I'm wondering why the cEDH players didn't made a house ban for Flash since they were very passionate about it, so assume players would hold their urge to using Flash and sue something else.

Largely for philosophical reasons. The cEDH side of the format revolves around pushing EDH to its limits. From what it looks like to me, Rule 0-ing in a Flash ban would mean that you wouldn't be playing EDH anymore.

It's also why the consensus leans against a format split. There are differences, but there aren't enough to distinguish them as two separate formats. There's also the fact that cEDH can't stand on its own two feet as a format. The card cost all but requires proxies for format growth, which is firmly against WOTC's policy for sanctioned events.

[CommanderMaster999]

Now protean hulk unbanning is now not so scary flash was the whole problem with it

I mean yes there's still ways to cheat it out but not on turn 2 anymore