Group Think: O-Kagachi

Outcryqq · Post by **Outcryqq** » 3 years ago

I'll vote to cut Niv-Mizzet Reborn

That means we just have one enchantment/artifact/walker to cut. Can we cast another vote for something we've already voted for? There's a few I wouldn't mind see go.

Treamayne · Post by **Treamayne** » 3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote: ↑
3 years ago
That means we just have one enchantment/artifact/walker to cut. Can we cast another vote for something we've already voted for? There's a few I wouldn't mind see go.

Sure. I think the dearth of voters kinda makes that necessary.

Sinis · Post by **Sinis** » 3 years ago

Treamayne wrote: ↑
3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote: ↑
3 years ago
That means we just have one enchantment/artifact/walker to cut. Can we cast another vote for something we've already voted for? There's a few I wouldn't mind see go.
Sure. I think the dearth of voters kinda makes that necessary.

Cool. Axe Unbender Tine unless Outcryqq has one that he especially wants gone.

Outcryqq · Post by **Outcryqq** » 3 years ago

I'm good with that one! My other pick would have been Mystic Barrier which narrowly escapes!

Treamayne · Post by **Treamayne** » 3 years ago

Day 32

Now voting to cut: Land

Changes:
I have nominated 29 Lands to use in voting for cuts. We now only need 2 votes for each cut.
16 Lands need to be cut.
Each day, participants may vote for up to 4 lands to cut.

Sections will be:

Show

Hide

3 Creature(s)
5 from among Enchantments, Artifacts, and Planeswalkers
1 from among Instants and Sorceries
We should now be at: 30 Creatures, 15 Spells, 20 Other
6 Non-Lands
We should now be at 59 of 99
Cut lands until we are at 40 (16 Remain)

Current ratios and weights for consideration:

Color	Card Count	Weight Count	Weight Multiplier
White	21	28	1.34
Blue	10	13	1.3
Black	12	13	1.09
Red	20	28	1.40
Green	19	21	1.11

*Where Weight Multiplier is the ratio of total costs in a color to the number of cards in the deck with that color in their CI. I use this to multiply against the color's required land ratio to get the total minimum number of mana sources the deck should contain to support that color weight.

Cut Lands: (16 Remain)

Land Chopping Block:
Basic
1 Vote - Plains
1 Vote - Plains
1 Vote - Island
1 Vote - Island
1 Vote - Swamp
1 Vote - Swamp
1 Vote - Mountain
1 Vote - Mountain
1 Vote - Forest
1 Vote - Forest
Multi
1 Vote - City of Brass
1 Vote - Exotic Orchard
1 Vote - Forbidden Orchard
1 Vote - Indatha Triome
1 Vote - Raugrin Triome
1 Vote - Zagoth Triome
1 Vote - Savai Triome
1 Vote - Ketria Triome
1 Vote - Murmuring Bosk
Utility
1 Vote - Krosan Verge
1 Vote - Marsh Flats
1 Vote - Scalding Tarn
1 Vote - Verdant Catacombs
1 Vote - Arid Mesa
1 Vote - Misty Rainforest
1 Vote - Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Vote - High Market
1 Vote - Kor Haven
1 Vote - Maze of Ith

Deck Images and List

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O-Kagachi Lands.jpg

O-Kagachi NL.jpg

O-Kagachi Group Think

Approximate Total Cost:

Non-Land Cuts:

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Chopped
3 Creatures (Complete)
3 Votes - Pramikon, Sky Rampart
3 Votes - Slumbering Dragon
3 Votes - Skyline Despot

5 among Enchantments, Artifacts and Planeswalkers (1 remains)
3 Votes - Sarkhan Unbroken
3 Votes - Prismatic Omen
3 Votes - Mu Yanling
3 Votes - Tome of Legends
3 Votes - Unbender Tine

1 among Instants and Sorceries (Complete)
3 Votes - Painful Truths

6 additional Non-Lands from any type (1 remains)
3 Votes - Courtly Provocateur
3 Votes - Thought Distortion
3 Votes - Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
3 Votes - Seasoned Pyromancer
3 Votes - Keep Watch
3 Votes - Niv-Mizzet Reborn

Chopping Block

2 Votes - Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
2 Votes - Mystic Barrier
2 Votes - Spear of Heliod
1 Vote - Blind Obedience
1 Vote - Curse of Opulence
1 Vote - Expansion // Explosion
1 Vote - Kiora's Follower
1 Vote - Knight of New Alara
1 Vote - Sol Ring
1 Vote - Swiftfoot Boots

Outcryqq · Post by **Outcryqq** » 3 years ago

I'll nominate to cut Maze of Ith, Murmuring Bosk, High Market, and Swamp.

Treamayne · Post by **Treamayne** » 3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I'll nominate to cut Maze of Ith

You may not have noticed, but with so many lands to cut, I made the following change (under "changes" at the top of the summary):

16 Lands need to be cut.
Each day, participants may vote for up to 4 lands to cut.

Outcryqq · Post by **Outcryqq** » 3 years ago

Yeah I missed that, edited my earlier post to vote for 4 lands.

Henlock · Post by **Henlock** » 3 years ago

I nominate Murmuring Bosk, Kor Haven, Island and High Market

Mookie · Post by **Mookie** » 3 years ago

I'll nominate Swamp, Forest, Island, and, Plains. Between the fetchlands and triomes, I think we have plenty of lands to fetch for turning on checklands already.

Maluko · Post by **Maluko** » 3 years ago

My votes go to City of Brass and Murmuring Bosk.

Treamayne · Post by **Treamayne** » 3 years ago

Thank you everybody.

Day 33

Now voting to cut: Land

Changes:
I have nominated 29 Lands to use in voting for cuts. We now only need 2 votes for each cut.
16 Lands need to be cut.
Each day, participants may vote for up to 4 lands to cut.

Sections will be:

Show

Hide

3 Creature(s)
5 from among Enchantments, Artifacts, and Planeswalkers
1 from among Instants and Sorceries
We should now be at: 30 Creatures, 15 Spells, 20 Other
6 Non-Lands
We should now be at 59 of 99
Cut lands until we are at 40 (12 Remain)

Current ratios and weights for consideration:

Color	Card Count	Weight Count	Weight Multiplier
White	21	28	1.34
Blue	10	13	1.30
Black	12	13	1.09
Red	20	28	1.40
Green	19	21	1.11

*Where Weight Multiplier is the ratio of total costs in a color to the number of cards in the deck with that color in their CI. I use this to multiply against the color's required land ratio to get the total minimum number of mana sources the deck should contain to support that color weight.

Cut Lands: (12 Remain)
3 Votes - Island
3 Votes - Swamp
3 Votes - High Market
3 Votes - Murmuring Bosk

Land Chopping Block:
2 Vote - Plains
2 Vote - Forest
2 Vote - City of Brass
2 Vote - Kor Haven
2 Vote - Maze of Ith
Basic
1 Vote - Plains
1 Vote - Island
1 Vote - Swamp
1 Vote - Mountain
1 Vote - Mountain
1 Vote - Forest
Multi
1 Vote - Exotic Orchard
1 Vote - Forbidden Orchard
1 Vote - Indatha Triome
1 Vote - Raugrin Triome
1 Vote - Zagoth Triome
1 Vote - Savai Triome
1 Vote - Ketria Triome
Utility
1 Vote - Krosan Verge
1 Vote - Marsh Flats
1 Vote - Scalding Tarn
1 Vote - Verdant Catacombs
1 Vote - Arid Mesa
1 Vote - Misty Rainforest
1 Vote - Shizo, Death's Storehouse

Deck Images and List

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O-Kagachi Group Think

General

1 O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami

Basic Land (25)

5 Plains

5 Island

5 Swamp

5 Mountain

5 Forest

WUBRG Land (5)

1 Cascading Cataracts

Dual/Tri Land (16)

Utility Land (10)

1 Marsh Flats

1 Arid Mesa

1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse

1 High Market

1 Kor Haven

1 Maze of Ith

Creatures (26)

1 Alluring Siren

1 Bloom Tender

1 Goblin Diplomats

1 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser

1 Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder

1 Brutal Hordechief

1 Fumiko the Lowblood

1 Knight of New Alara

1 Basandra, Battle Seraph

1 Custodi Lich

1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

1 Pathbreaker Ibex

1 Thantis, the Warweaver

1 Angler Turtle

Artifacts (10)

1 Sol Ring

1 Crawlspace

Enchantment (10)

1 Curse of Opulence

1 Footfall Crater

1 Blind Obedience

1 Luminarch Ascension

1 Duelist's Heritage

1 Rhythm of the Wild

1 Trove of Temptation

1 Nature's Blessing

1 Mystic Barrier

1 Revel in Riches

Instants (6)

1 Expansion // Explosion

Sorceries (7)

1 Gaea's Blessing

1 Borrowing 100,000 Arrows

1 Cultivate

1 Kodama's Reach

1 All Suns' Dawn

1 Bring to Light

1 Conflux

Approximate Total Cost:

Non-Land Cuts:

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Chopped
3 Creatures (Complete)
3 Votes - Pramikon, Sky Rampart
3 Votes - Slumbering Dragon
3 Votes - Skyline Despot

5 among Enchantments, Artifacts and Planeswalkers (1 remains)
3 Votes - Sarkhan Unbroken
3 Votes - Prismatic Omen
3 Votes - Mu Yanling
3 Votes - Tome of Legends
3 Votes - Unbender Tine

1 among Instants and Sorceries (Complete)
3 Votes - Painful Truths

6 additional Non-Lands from any type (1 remains)
3 Votes - Courtly Provocateur
3 Votes - Thought Distortion
3 Votes - Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
3 Votes - Seasoned Pyromancer
3 Votes - Keep Watch
3 Votes - Niv-Mizzet Reborn

Chopping Block

2 Votes - Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
2 Votes - Mystic Barrier
2 Votes - Spear of Heliod
1 Vote - Blind Obedience
1 Vote - Curse of Opulence
1 Vote - Expansion // Explosion
1 Vote - Kiora's Follower
1 Vote - Knight of New Alara
1 Vote - Sol Ring
1 Vote - Swiftfoot Boots

Outcryqq · Post by **Outcryqq** » 3 years ago

I'll cast votes for Shizo, Death's Storehouse, Plains, Island, Mountain.

Segrus · Post by **Segrus** » 3 years ago

I'll vote for Shizo, Death's Storehouse, Krosan Verge, Forbidden Orchard, and Mountain.

Henlock · Post by **Henlock** » 3 years ago

let's go on with the basics cutting. I vote Plains, Forest and Mountain.

Sinis · Post by **Sinis** » 3 years ago

I vote for Forbidden Orchard, Mountain, Plains and Forest.

Treamayne · Post by **Treamayne** » 3 years ago

Day 34

Now voting to cut: Land

Changes:
I have nominated 29 Lands to use in voting for cuts. We now only need 2 votes for each cut.
16 Lands need to be cut.
Each day, participants may vote for up to 4 lands to cut.

Sections will be:

Show

Hide

3 Creature(s)
5 from among Enchantments, Artifacts, and Planeswalkers
1 from among Instants and Sorceries
We should now be at: 30 Creatures, 15 Spells, 20 Other
6 Non-Lands
We should now be at 59 of 99
Cut lands until we are at 40 (12 Remain)

Current ratios and weights for consideration:

Color	Card Count	Weight Count	Weight Multiplier	Land Count
White	21	28	1.34	17
Blue	10	13	1.30	17
Black	12	13	1.09	17
Red	20	28	1.40	16
Green	19	21	1.11	18

*Where Weight Multiplier is the ratio of total costs in a color to the number of cards in the deck with that color in their CI. I use this to multiply against the color's required land ratio to get the total minimum number of mana sources the deck should contain to support that color weight.
*Land count is the current number of lands producing that color, Fetch lands count for the colors they search.

Cut Lands: (5 Remain)
3 Votes - Plains
3 Votes - Plains
3 Votes - Island
3 Votes - Swamp
3 Votes - Mountain
3 Votes - Mountain
3 Votes - Forest
3 Votes - High Market
3 Votes - Murmuring Bosk
3 Votes - Forbidden Orchard
3 Votes - Shizo, Death's Storehouse

Land Chopping Block:
2 Vote - Island
2 Vote - Forest
2 Vote - City of Brass
2 Vote - Krosan Verge
2 Vote - Kor Haven
2 Vote - Maze of Ith
Basic
1 Vote - Swamp
Multi
1 Vote - Exotic Orchard
1 Vote - Indatha Triome
1 Vote - Raugrin Triome
1 Vote - Zagoth Triome
1 Vote - Savai Triome
1 Vote - Ketria Triome
Utility
1 Vote - Marsh Flats
1 Vote - Scalding Tarn
1 Vote - Verdant Catacombs
1 Vote - Arid Mesa
1 Vote - Misty Rainforest

Deck Images and List

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O-Kagachi Group Think

General

1 O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami

Basic Land (18)

3 Plains

4 Island

4 Swamp

3 Mountain

4 Forest

WUBRG Land (4)

1 Cascading Cataracts

1 City of Brass

1 Command Tower

1 Exotic Orchard

Dual/Tri Land (15)

Utility Land (8)

1 Marsh Flats

1 Arid Mesa

1 Kor Haven

1 Maze of Ith

Creatures (26)

1 Alluring Siren

1 Bloom Tender

1 Goblin Diplomats

1 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser

1 Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder

1 Brutal Hordechief

1 Fumiko the Lowblood

1 Knight of New Alara

1 Basandra, Battle Seraph

1 Custodi Lich

1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

1 Pathbreaker Ibex

1 Thantis, the Warweaver

1 Angler Turtle

Artifacts (10)

1 Sol Ring

1 Crawlspace

Enchantment (10)

1 Curse of Opulence

1 Footfall Crater

1 Blind Obedience

1 Luminarch Ascension

1 Duelist's Heritage

1 Rhythm of the Wild

1 Trove of Temptation

1 Nature's Blessing

1 Mystic Barrier

1 Revel in Riches

Instants (6)

1 Expansion // Explosion

Sorceries (7)

1 Gaea's Blessing

1 Borrowing 100,000 Arrows

1 Cultivate

1 Kodama's Reach

1 All Suns' Dawn

1 Bring to Light

1 Conflux

Approximate Total Cost:

Non-Land Cuts:

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Chopped
3 Creatures (Complete)
3 Votes - Pramikon, Sky Rampart
3 Votes - Slumbering Dragon
3 Votes - Skyline Despot

5 among Enchantments, Artifacts and Planeswalkers (1 remains)
3 Votes - Sarkhan Unbroken
3 Votes - Prismatic Omen
3 Votes - Mu Yanling
3 Votes - Tome of Legends
3 Votes - Unbender Tine

1 among Instants and Sorceries (Complete)
3 Votes - Painful Truths

6 additional Non-Lands from any type (1 remains)
3 Votes - Courtly Provocateur
3 Votes - Thought Distortion
3 Votes - Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
3 Votes - Seasoned Pyromancer
3 Votes - Keep Watch
3 Votes - Niv-Mizzet Reborn

Chopping Block

2 Votes - Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
2 Votes - Mystic Barrier
2 Votes - Spear of Heliod
1 Vote - Blind Obedience
1 Vote - Curse of Opulence
1 Vote - Expansion // Explosion
1 Vote - Kiora's Follower
1 Vote - Knight of New Alara
1 Vote - Sol Ring
1 Vote - Swiftfoot Boots

Outcryqq · Post by **Outcryqq** » 3 years ago

I vote to cut Island, Forest, Swamp, Maze of Ith

Sinis · Post by **Sinis** » 3 years ago

I vote for City of Brass, Swamp, Exotic Orchard, and...

Can I nominate Cascading Cataracts? I feel like it doesn't do much for our deck, except fix (but I think we have that down with fetches, checklands and triomes).

Treamayne · Post by **Treamayne** » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Can I nominate Cascading Cataracts?

Yes, but the point is moot. We have finished the cuts.

Day 35

Deck Complete

Thank you to everybody that participated, especially @Outcryqq and @Sinis whose steady input made finishing possible.

If anybody has any alibis or final adjustments, please reply in thread.

I would also appreciate feedback on the concept and experiment (in whole or any part thereof in the last 30+ days).

O-Kagachi Group Think

General

1 O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami

Basic Land (15)

3 Plains

3 Island

3 Swamp

3 Mountain

3 Forest

WUBRG Land (3)

1 Cascading Cataracts

1 Command Tower

1 Exotic Orchard

Dual/Tri Land (15)

Utility Land (7)

1 Marsh Flats

1 Arid Mesa

1 Kor Haven

Creatures (26)

1 Alluring Siren

1 Bloom Tender

1 Goblin Diplomats

1 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser

1 Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder

1 Brutal Hordechief

1 Fumiko the Lowblood

1 Knight of New Alara

1 Basandra, Battle Seraph

1 Custodi Lich

1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

1 Pathbreaker Ibex

1 Thantis, the Warweaver

1 Angler Turtle

Artifacts (10)

1 Sol Ring

1 Crawlspace

Enchantment (10)

1 Curse of Opulence

1 Footfall Crater

1 Blind Obedience

1 Luminarch Ascension

1 Duelist's Heritage

1 Rhythm of the Wild

1 Trove of Temptation

1 Nature's Blessing

1 Mystic Barrier

1 Revel in Riches

Instants (6)

1 Expansion // Explosion

Sorceries (7)

1 Gaea's Blessing

1 Borrowing 100,000 Arrows

1 Cultivate

1 Kodama's Reach

1 All Suns' Dawn

1 Bring to Light

1 Conflux

Approximate Total Cost:

Cuts:

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Chopped Land
3 Votes - Plains
3 Votes - Plains
3 Votes - Island
3 Votes - Island
3 Votes - Swamp
3 Votes - Swamp
3 Votes - Mountain
3 Votes - Mountain
3 Votes - Forest
3 Votes - Forest

3 Votes - City of Brass
3 Votes - High Market
3 Votes - Maze of Ith
3 Votes - Murmuring Bosk
3 Votes - Forbidden Orchard
3 Votes - Shizo, Death's Storehouse

Chopped Creatures
3 Votes - Courtly Provocateur
3 Votes - Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
3 Votes - Niv-Mizzet Reborn
3 Votes - Pramikon, Sky Rampart
3 Votes - Seasoned Pyromancer
3 Votes - Skyline Despot
3 Votes - Slumbering Dragon

Chopped NLNCP
3 Votes - Mu Yanling
3 Votes - Prismatic Omen
3 Votes - Sarkhan Unbroken
3 Votes - Tome of Legends
3 Votes - Unbender Tine

Chopped Spells
3 Votes - Keep Watch
3 Votes - Painful Truths
3 Votes - Thought Distortion

Chopping Block
Land Chopping Block:
2 Votes - Exotic Orchard
2 Votes - Kor Haven
2 Votes - Krosan Verge
1 Vote - Arid Mesa
1 Vote - Cascading Cataracts
1 Vote - Indatha Triome
1 Vote - Ketria Triome
1 Vote - Marsh Flats
1 Vote - Misty Rainforest
1 Vote - Raugrin Triome
1 Vote - Savai Triome
1 Vote - Scalding Tarn
1 Vote - Verdant Catacombs
1 Vote - Zagoth Triome

Non-Land Chopping Block:
2 Votes - Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
2 Votes - Mystic Barrier
2 Votes - Spear of Heliod
1 Vote - Blind Obedience
1 Vote - Curse of Opulence
1 Vote - Expansion // Explosion
1 Vote - Kiora's Follower
1 Vote - Knight of New Alara
1 Vote - Sol Ring
1 Vote - Swiftfoot Boots
[/List]

Treamayne · Post by **Treamayne** » 3 years ago

Final ratios and weights:

Color	Card Count	Weight Count	Weight Multiplier	Land Count
White	21	28	1.34	16
Blue	10	13	1.30	15
Black	12	13	1.09	15
Red	20	28	1.40	15
Green	19	21	1.11	16

*Where Weight Multiplier is the ratio of total costs in a color to the number of cards in the deck with that color in their CI. I use this to multiply against the color's required land ratio to get the total minimum number of mana sources the deck should contain to support that color weight.
*Land count is the current number of lands producing that color, Fetch lands count for the colors they search.

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Sinis · Post by **Sinis** » 3 years ago

Hurray! We did it!

Outcryqq · Post by **Outcryqq** » 3 years ago

Thanks for all your hard work @Treamayne. The recently spoiled Pursued Whale would have likely been an include?

Mookie · Post by **Mookie** » 3 years ago

Thanks for running this! I'm going to look forwards to seeing the deck in action - I hope the games get recorded and put up somewhere (or at the very least, some detailed storytime).

My main feedback would just be re: the cutting phase, since things did move a bit slower for it. I don't have a ton of ideas for how to make that phase faster though - as previously stated (and based on my own deckbuilding experience), cutting cards is always more difficult than adding new ones.

Still, it may be possible to add a bit more direction / focus to the phase. Maybe something like 'nominate 3 cards to cut, the next person to post chooses one of those to actually cut and nominates 3 more'? I'm not entirely sure whether that is more or less work than adding votes for cuts one at a time, but it would probably keep things moving along at a more-constant rate.

Treamayne · Post by **Treamayne** » 3 years ago

Mookie wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Still, it may be possible to add a bit more direction / focus to the phase. Maybe something like 'nominate 3 cards to cut, the next person to post chooses one of those to actually cut and nominates 3 more'? I'm not entirely sure whether that is more or less work than adding votes for cuts one at a time, but it would probably keep things moving along at a more-constant rate.

Well, it wasn't supposed to be one-at-a-time. It was supposed to be one nomination (if there is a card you want to cut that is not yet on the chopping block - nominations count as the first vote) and one vote (for anything on the chopping block) per day.

My instructions will definitely need to be clearer; but people will still have to read them.

The real slow down was the way participation stalled, even before cutting began. The high point of participation was 14 posts (day 1). However, before we had even finished nominating card to build the deck, we had days with no nominations at all (thread pages 3-5), and most days only saw 1 or two nominations. That's why I made changes to how land was nominated, which I think was a net-positive change.

		Decks
wb teysa [primer] bw	bg tasigur [primer] gu	ug animar gr	ur mizzix ru	wu brago uw
rg samut [primer]gw	wu sharuum ub	uu thada uu	ub kess br	companion cube

Deck	Power
Inferno	5
Devoured by Dragons	5
Midnight Hunt	6
Hidden Dragon	6
Chaos Reigns	6
Draconic Onslaught	7

		Decks
wb teysa [primer] bw	bg tasigur [primer] gu	ug animar gr	ur mizzix ru	wu brago uw
rg samut [primer]gw	wu sharuum ub	uu thada uu	ub kess br	companion cube

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