Removal and Restrictions: An Analysis

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

I was inspired by the discussion of Big Game Hunter in the "Card of the Day" thread to analyze removal in EDH. It's a statement of fact that most of us probably aren't running enough removal - being able to interact is an important part of EDH, and a deck should dedicate 5-15 slots towards interfering with its opponent's plans somehow. It's also obvious to say that the best removal is unconditional - Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Hero's Downfall. A game of EDH, especially at a convention or LGS (when those are a thing again), is wild and unpredictable, so having removal that hits all cards of a type without qualification, or better yet hits multiple types of permanents, is what we want. In a perfect world, we'd run 15 copies of Terminate (or probably more accurately, 5 Terminates, 5 Bedevils, and 5 Chaos Warps) in our Rakdos decks and call it a day.

Except we don't live in a perfect world, and for most every color combination except for maybe Mardu, Abzan, and Jund, we hit a point after a few removal spells where the options for flexible, unconditional removal that's 3 CMC or less starts to dry up. We're faced with the dilemma - do we pay extra for Murder and Vraska's Contempt? Or settle for Doom Blade and Terror? How often are those going to whiff, anyways?

I looked at the 15 most common "qualifications" on removal spells, mostly in terms of quantity but also in terms of the recency and power of the few cards with the text. For each, I looked at EDHRecs data for the most played Commanders and Creatures, and then came up with a few "scores" for each card - a "Hit Rate" of how often it should be a live card, as well as a "value rate" for how often it should be capable of removing the most threatening card on the other side of the table - the Commander.

I'll post a bunch more about that methodology in spoilers below, alongside a link to my raw data. But, for those who aren't interested and want to get to the Fireworks factory, here's a breakdown.
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Highly Relevant (Hit rate of 95%+): A hit rate this high means this is as close as removal gets to just not having a restriction. The "Best" Removal restriction was "Without any counters" (as seen on Heartless Act) and "Non-artifact" (as seen on Go for the Throat. With hit rates of 97% and 96% respectively, these are as close as one can get to non restriction removal in practice. You can safely and easily run these over cards like Murder and even cards like Devour in Shadow that have a significant drawback, and have confidence they will find a high-impact target very often.

Acceptable Relevance (Hit Rate of 66%+): Your mileage may vary, but to me I'd want my removal to have a hit rate of at least this. In a 4-player game this level of rate should mean it is unlikely for my cards to be 100% dead in the match and rare to be dead in hand for more than a few turns.

- First up is "Toughness 5 or less", which really is damage and -X/-X effects, with a rate of 77%. That's a bit of an overestimate as auras and equipment can shove targets out of range, but it does mean that Dismember and Magmatic Sinkhole are relevant includes to their respective colors, possibly more so than other removal spells.

- Next, surprisingly, is "CMC 4 or greater" (as seen on Despark and Disdainful Stroke), with a hit rate of 74%. Considering these hit multiple permanent types and I only looked at creatures, as well as the fact that these get around "Indestructible" and "Regenerate", these seem like borderline auto-includes in decks of their colors.

- After that, in what is probably my most shocking finding, is "Green or White", as seen on Noxious Grasp and Deathmark. That's right - on average, in a blind metagame, these are more likely to find targets than Doom Blade. I think especially given that Grasp hits planeswalkers as well, it merits a lot more testing - these cards have a rep as sideboard only cards in Standard and Modern, but the "meta" of EDH today is such that they should rarely be dead draws.

- Lastly, we have "Power 3 or greater", as seen on Skywhaler's Shot and Abzan Charm (also Dusk // Dawn and Meekstone). At a 69% hit rate these are nice inclusions, although it should be noted that in my data they have a high hit rate but lower overall value - they are active and live on the most dangerous creatures to come out of a 99, but they miss on a LOT of commanders. As a result, they aren't quite auto-includes especially in Abzan where you have tons of options. It does mean that Shot is one of the better instant-speed answers in mono-white, Azorius, Selesnya, or Bant after the usual suspects though.

Shaky Relevance (Hit Rate of 50%+): To me this is starting to get in the danger zone - there will be games where these are dead especially in the endgame after a few opponents are down, and they may sit, useless, in hand for several rounds before a target presents itself. They can still be worth running in some color combinations, but may deserve a second look in other decks or if your meta is one where speed is less important and you can get away with Murder.

- The highest rated restriction here, coming sooooo close to being in the next tier, is "Black or Red" as seen on Celestial Purge, Surge of Righteousness, Inquisitor's Snare, or Devout Decree. They had an impressive hit rate of 64%. Again, these effects are seen as sideboard-only but I think now that I've done the math they deserve additional glances for EDH, especially as they are high "Value" (hitting many commanders) and because two of the four of these are capable of hitting multiple permanent types.

- Next at sort of the bare minimum I'd feel comfortable with is "Nonblack". This is the removal restriction du jour nowadays, seen most prominently on Doom Blade but also on many, many, many other removal spells, and had a hit rate of 62%. Honestly? I think you can do better, but sometimes in Monoblack or Dimir running these might be necessary. For my money, I'm pretty sure I'm just never running blade or Hideous End again - if I run a removal spell with this restriction it will be because it generates extra value like Malicious Affliction or because it can be cast for free like Snuff Out or Slaughter Pact, and even then I may run those a little less.

- Unsurprisingly next is "Nonblack, Nonartifact", which is 5% worse than the prior restriction with a hit rate of 57%. Only 1000 decks run Terror on EDHRecs, but I hope that number vanishes soon - there's simply no reason for the risk. Honestly, this makes me take a long, cold, and hard look at running Nekrataal and Bone Shredder outside of the most durdly of Meren and Alesha decks, too.

- Next is "Toughness 4 or less" which is also at 57% hit rate but a much higher value rating, as you hit significantly more commanders. This is the minimum level needed for a -X-X or X damage effect to make it in Commander, I think - in black you should be able to do better than Grasp of Darkness or Sudden Death but in many Red, Blue, Simic, Gruul, Izzet, or Temur decks it makes running Char, Lava Coil, Psionic Blast, and similar cards at least worthy of argument.

- Rounding out this category, and just barely, is "Power 4 or Greater" as seen most relevantly on Reprisal, Eternal Isolation, The Wanderer, and Collective Effort as well as on the card that started my little quest - Big Game Hunter. With a hit rate of 51% these should rarely be dead, but I'd have to stress that that hit rate is being buoyed a lot by how "effective" these cards are against threatening finishers out of the '99 - these effects have a profoundly lower value level than all other removal in this tier and are dead against most all of the most popular modern Commanders. Run them at your peril, or if (in the case of Hunter or Defiance) they bring some additional value to your deck via synergy.

Bad Idea: Below 50% hit rate: This is mostly the stuff you'd expect; I did the math on "Blue" and "Red" (as seen on stuff like Pyroblast or Hydroblast ) and found that those just aren't going to hit often enough even with the modals. For what it's worth, "Blue" won the category with a hit rate of 35% so it isn't totally insane at least. "Toughness 3 or less" had a sad hit rate of 31% - I had mentioned offhand a few weeks ago that Lightning Bolt seemed underplayed, but it's actually played just right as it is going to whiff a lot in this format. The only shocker here is "CMC 3 or less", with our worst hit rate of 23%. Of course almost no one is playing Smother or Baffling End in EDH, but Abrupt Decay is in over 10000 decks and Tyrant's Scorn is also in a surprising amount of decks. I won't say that's wrong as those spells are modal and should never be truly dead draws, but one should probably look closely at how often decay is just a Natural State and Scorn is just an Unsummon and consider adjusting accordingly.

EDIT: As a bonus to call to mind just how questionable these are, I ran "nonlegendary" real quick (as seen on Cast Down). Cast Down has a hit rate of 41% and a value of 65, outstripping all of these, despite being completely unable to handle any commander. I don't advise running Cast Down, but hopefully that also is extra illustration on just how "dead" these effects are often going to be.
TL;DR - may you look at running Noxious Grasp over Doom Blade the next time you build Bx spellslinger :grin:
Methodology and Data
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Link to my Spreadsheet
  • I used EDHREC data as of the last few days.
  • I did not weight any particular creature for "likelihood of targeting it" anywhere except the "Relevant" Column. For instance, I did not add any consideration that removal on Yuriko, The Tiger's Shadow is not very effective, or that Edgar Markov is unlikely to ever leave the command zone.
  • I also did not weight by presence - it made no difference that Sun Titan is the most omnipresent creature in the 50 relevant creature list and Etali is the least.
  • Korvold, Fae-Cursed King was considered a 4/4 with a +1/+1 counter for the purposes of targeting, as the window in which he has no counter is very small and easily interrupted by a sacrifice outlet. This consideration was not extended to Ramos, Dragon Engine, Edgar Markov, or Deadeye Navigator, Mother of Runes, and similar creatures, because the windows to respond to those cards is wider. It does mean a bit of caution is required in evaluating Heartless Act and Dismember, however.
  • Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Prime Speaker Zegana have variable power; I considered them as likely targetable by an effect that destroys cards of "3 or more" power (since it's rare to have someone cast them without them being at least a 3/3), but as unlikely targets for any "5 toughness or less" effects (because they can't, reliably, be counted on to be destroyable by them).
  • I did take a creature's text into consideration somewhat - all of these are "Destroy" effects for the most part, so I did consider Xenagos, God of Revels untouchable by them. A few exceptions - because not all effects are black, I did not factor in Karmic Guide's protection. Because all effects that target cards of CMC 4+ either exile or counter at this time, I considered them successful against the Gods. I did not take into consideration the ability to sacrifice Sakura-Tribe Elder or Burnished Hart in response - removal is considered capable of "hitting" them even though it will often fizzle.
  • "Toughness X or less" in general was tough. I generally evaluated it all as damage, even though -X/-X also kills Indestructible critters and regenerators. Meanwhile, it is totally possible that these cards quickly fail due to equipment, auras, or counters - and also possible to extend their reach by combining them or tossing them out after damage. I simplified it to purely look at printed Toughness (minus the aforementioned exceptions) with the understanding that those results should be taken with a grain of salt.
  • In part because of Elder and Hart, the "Relevant Target" category was created as a curated list by me of the 50 most common creatures in EDH one might actually want to kill. The complete list is below; in it I effectively excluded creatures only played for their EtB or Death triggers and creatures that almost all removal fails against (the gods, Underrealm Lich) to get a wider range of targets. I did this because a full half of the top 10 most played creatures are things I'd never ever burn removal on - Solemn Simulacrum and Eternal Witness and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Another decent chunk are cards that, in competitive play one may want to kill (e.g. always bolt the Birds of Paradise) but that I'm unlikely to want to specifically target in a multiplayer game for a variety of reasons both strategic and political. I wanted to see the efficacy of removal against specifically cards one might actually want to surgically remove instead of just waiting for them to be mopped up as collateral damage in the next boardwipe.
  • I do recognize some of that is debatable - most people play Prime Speaker Zegana for her EtB trigger as she's just a vanilla beater otherwise, and sometimes killing Acidic Slime or Baleful Strix really is relevant in determining the outcome of a game. My final consideration in these cases is "how likely is this creature going to be capable of swinging for lethal unassisted?" Really anything over a 5/5 is still plenty threatening. On the flip side, I had to make a call on cards like Goblin Electromancer, Deathrite Shaman, Beast Whisperer, and Kiora's Follower - these look a lot like "little birds" as small enablers, but I decided they enable enough nonsense to be priority targets in a way Elvish Mystic rarely is.
  • The final scores also deserve some explanation. Hit Percent is, simply, the total number of hits divided by 140 (the total number of cards looked at). Because there's a ton of overlap in the four data columns, there is also "Strict Hit", which looks only at "Commanders of the last 2 years" and "Top 50 Relevant Targets", divided by 70. These are the percentages actually reported above.
  • Finally we have "Value"; I wanted to have a column that properly considered that killing Commanders is typically more important than just creatures. In an extreme example, if you can kill Meren or Grave Titan, you MUST kill Meren - as a sufficiently experienced Meren will simply reanimate the Grave Titan. Not all Commanders are this extreme, but most are - killing commanders can shut down turns or entire decks. Value thus gives a small numerical boost to the two commander columns to more accurately reflect how life-saving that removal spell will be in practice.
Last edited by Hawk 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

Thanks for compiling this! Based on testing over the years, I've found myself happy to run Go for the Throat, and consistently disappointed by Doom Blade. Really nice to see some data that actually backs up those data points.

Very interesting to see Noxious Grasp so high, but it makes sense, given how prevalent green is. Haven't picked up any copies of Heartless Act yet, but this has reminded me to do so when I get the chance. Numbers may skew slightly for it as Ikoria stuff becomes more prevalent, but I wouldn't expect it to shift that much.

I will lodge a (very minor) complaint about no data for 'power 2 or less', but as I've never seen anyone else run Dimir Charm, and the hit rate is almost certainly 'no, seriously, don't run this card as removal', I'll excuse its exclusion. :P

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 years ago

I'd personally like to see the data and analysis expanded to encompass removal towards all permanent types as opposed to only creatures. Doing so allows us to see which niche removal spells have hit rates well above their EV and should therefore see more play despite their ostensible limitations.

All that being said, this thread = excellent.
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

Mookie wrote:
4 years ago
Thanks for compiling this! Based on testing over the years, I've found myself happy to run Go for the Throat, and consistently disappointed by Doom Blade. Really nice to see some data that actually backs up those data points.

Very interesting to see Noxious Grasp so high, but it makes sense, given how prevalent green is. Haven't picked up any copies of Heartless Act yet, but this has reminded me to do so when I get the chance. Numbers may skew slightly for it as Ikoria stuff becomes more prevalent, but I wouldn't expect it to shift that much.

I will lodge a (very minor) complaint about no data for 'power 2 or less', but as I've never seen anyone else run Dimir Charm, and the hit rate is almost certainly 'no, seriously, don't run this card as removal', I'll excuse its exclusion. :P
Thanks! Yeah, for poor ol' Dimir Charm (and related effects like Krovikan Rot, Searing Light, Last Breath, and Connive // Concoct) I decided the numbers were so bad on Toughness 3 or less as to make it a shaky bet. Inversely, there are so few effects that are EDH playable and deal 6+ damage or do -6/6 or more, and I was so satisfied by the hit rate at 5, that it didn't feel worth running those either. I am happy to run it though, probably next week when I'm bored at work :).
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 years ago
I'd personally like to see the data and analysis expanded to encompass removal towards all permanent types as opposed to only creatures. Doing so allows us to see which niche removal spells have hit rates well above their EV and should therefore see more play despite their ostensible limitations.

All that being said, this thread = excellent.
I'm open to suggestions - I did think about it initially, and my concerns on it were...

1) Many decks aim to win via creatures or at least have a Commander, but some decks run 0-1 enchantments. It's harder to gauge relevance by played data on EDHRecs alone. It'd take a LOT of analysis to determine just how much more or less relevant, say, Ceremonious Rejection is than Annul for instance. Or, if I'm understanding you right, it'd be equally hard to determine, say, how valuable Putrefy's ability to hit artifacts is going to be compared to just slamming another removal spell like Go for the Throat instead.

2) Relatedly, most decks are aiming to run 5-10+ answers to creatures and if those answers just so happen to hit other permanents, gravy. Most decks are rarely aiming to run 5+ Disenchant effects - they're running one or two, maybe three or four tops. The "best in show" quickly outweigh everything else. There's less reason to analyze how good Fragmentize is, because it's just so easy to run a few of Disenchant, Return to Dust, Forsake the Worldly, and Heliod's Intervention and call it a day.

3) There are very few playable cards that affect non-creatures and have restrictions at least off the top of my head; it's pretty much just Fragmentize, Natural State, and Abrupt Decay right? No others leap to mind.

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Post by Wallycaine » 4 years ago

Very cool! Thinking on it further, the Green/White result doesn't surprise me when you consider the prevalence of multicolored cards, especially as commanders. Once something's 3 colors, it's waaay more likely to be green or white (only 1 combination of 3 colors isn't) than non-black (which is only 4 combinations out of 10). Even with 2 color, assuming an even spread, 70% are either white or green, while only 60% are non-black. It's only in mono-color that non-black has the advantage. Add in green and white being creature colors, and thus more likely to have popular creatures, and the results actually make a lot of sense there. I'd be curious what the hit rate for red/green is, as blue has had some bounce/removal spells in that vein before (Blue/White members of those cycles tend to be further limited by being damage, and green rarely gets removal for their parts of those cycles).

My only caveat with Heartless Act would be the consideration that there are more ways for counters to get on things than just the cards themselves. For example, Ghave, Guru of Spores prevents you from having an effective target as long as they have even a single mana up, and something like Cathars' Crusade covers a board in counters without much external effort. That said, Heartless Act does still have some ability to interact with cards in those cases, even if that's hard to account for in the hit rate.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

One thing I'll say for REB/Pyroblast: it's only hitting a little over 1/3 of creatures, but it's also countering blue spells more generally. Basically, if it's blue those cards handle it for R in response, and if it's a creature they handle it even after it resolves. They differ enough from other spot removal to matter.

With those, and abrupt decay, it's important to look at what they hit besides creatures. I'd say one way to look at it is to consider something like Naturalize as a creature removal spell that only hits artifact and enchantment creatures. That's a seriously bad restriction, but it also hits non creature artifacts and enchantments and that dramatically increases it's usefulness. For Pyroblast, being able to protect a combo from a counterspell or counter something like Rite of Replication or Cyclonic Rift is pretty major, and for Abrupt Decay there are numerous important non creature permanents with cmc 3 or less.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

There's a few corner case restrictions I'd be interested in:

Non-Green (since Death Rattle with Delve can be cheap and Soul Reap is 2 mana)

Non-Zombie

Non-Elf

Non-Demon

Non-Merfolk

Non-Werewolf, Non-Vampire, Non-Zombie (Victim of Night is a pet card of mine)

I picked the tribal ones that were either recent, cheap, or have been used multiple times. Non Zombie and Non Demon in particular I expect will be printed again.

Lastly: Legendary, like Hero's Demise. It's likely to have a high miss yet high value, and I wonder how that compares to other things. It does hit any commander that can be hit by creature removal, and as a 2 mana instant.

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Post by Inkeyes22 » 4 years ago

First, thanks for compiling this! I know some people will do various methods (I really like the theory of 8x8 etc.) but so few people even think about interaction. I typically do the 2-5 board wipes, and 5-10 spot removal. I do try to have at least a few on theme (Lignify in Doran, the Siege Tower), but if I have a spare Path to Exile that will go in first. This can help get some players to run more efficient removal so I am all for that.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Interesting write-up. So this literally just looks at the rate of return on all the conditional removals, right? I'm slightly confused as you mention Murder in the intro but never double back.

I'll second Victim of Night, that thing has a crazy good spread. Withering Boon doesn't get enough recognition, nobody expects a black deck to snuff out a juicy ETB. If the deck has ways to sac on demand, Tragic Slip is wicked good too.
 
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Are you guys really running conditional removal? I would never and have never run anything like Victim of Night or any of that stuff. Just always feel like there're better options to me, even in mono colored I'd rather jam a Duplicant and take a risk than run Dismember.

Even in mono red, probably the worst removal color, I'll just figure out a way not to have to run stuff that's conditional. Maaaaybe sinkhole I guess, but after stuff like Fork or Dualcaster Mage.

It's an interesting bit of analysis but it doesn't seem to resonate to me. I guess I might just be weird in my construction though. Like I'll run Hero's Downfall and pay the 1 vs. Go for the Throat.

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Post by KMA_Again » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Are you guys really running conditional removal? I would never and have never run anything like Victim of Night or any of that stuff. Just always feel like there're better options to me, even in mono colored I'd rather jam a Duplicant and take a risk than run Dismember.

Even in mono red, probably the worst removal color, I'll just figure out a way not to have to run stuff that's conditional. Maaaaybe sinkhole I guess, but after stuff like Fork or Dualcaster Mage.

It's an interesting bit of analysis but it doesn't seem to resonate to me. I guess I might just be weird in my construction though. Like I'll run Hero's Downfall and pay the 1 vs. Go for the Throat.
You play cEDH and normal EDH. As an experiment, take a note whenever you see something that can't be killed by Victim of Night, or Go for the Throat, depending on how limiting you want to make this. Then you'll see exactly how effective or ineffective either are in your playgroup/meta.

Of course, anyone else can do this and see how potent or not any card is in their meta.

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Post by Inkeyes22 » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Are you guys really running conditional removal? I would never and have never run anything like Victim of Night or any of that stuff. Just always feel like there're better options to me, even in mono colored I'd rather jam a Duplicant and take a risk than run Dismember.

Even in mono red, probably the worst removal color, I'll just figure out a way not to have to run stuff that's conditional. Maaaaybe sinkhole I guess, but after stuff like Fork or Dualcaster Mage.

It's an interesting bit of analysis but it doesn't seem to resonate to me. I guess I might just be weird in my construction though. Like I'll run Hero's Downfall and pay the 1 vs. Go for the Throat.
I do tend to run some questionable cards when I throw together a rough idea. I typically have cards on order but until they show up, or until I decide exactly which cards I want I will run whatever I have. At one point I had over 40 decks so I really had to stretch things, especially with regards to mana bases/removal. I didn't have a Path to Exile for every deck that ran W, for example. I also switch up/pull apart decks frequently, so I often have staples sitting around, but not always the most optimal choices.

I have often lost while holding a Hero's Downfall with only 1B open a few too many times. I know a lot of people think cmc doesn't matter in EDH, and I am not saying you have to have an average cmc of 2 or anything, but sometimes running Ravenous Chupacabra vs. Noxious Gearhulk isn't just a budget constraint concern.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Inkeyes22 wrote:
4 years ago
I have often lost while holding a Hero's Downfall with only 1B open a few too many times. I know a lot of people think cmc doesn't matter in EDH, and I am not saying you have to have an average cmc of 2 or anything, but sometimes running Ravenous Chupacabra vs. Noxious Gearhulk isn't just a budget constraint concern.
CMC is obviously meaningful but comparing 1 cmc for adding planeswalkers and no restriction is not really the same as 4 to 6 cmc.

I maybe don't run as much targeted removal as most people I guess but I don't remember the last time I was like "man, I need to add Ultimate Price because i'm short on 2 cmc removal.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

I feel the thread's mainly for the benefit of mono-colour players. Usually if you've got 2+ colours' worth of stuff to work with, you can scrounge together a competent removal suite that doesn't need to get too conditional. But what do you do if you're mono black, for example? Hence this might be a bit niche in the grand scheme of EDH, but still a good thing to consider.
 
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Post by Inkeyes22 » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Inkeyes22 wrote:
4 years ago
I have often lost while holding a Hero's Downfall with only 1B open a few too many times. I know a lot of people think cmc doesn't matter in EDH, and I am not saying you have to have an average cmc of 2 or anything, but sometimes running Ravenous Chupacabra vs. Noxious Gearhulk isn't just a budget constraint concern.
CMC is obviously meaningful but comparing 1 cmc for adding planeswalkers and no restriction is not really the same as 4 to 6 cmc.

I maybe don't run as much targeted removal as most people I guess but I don't remember the last time I was like "man, I need to add Ultimate Price because i'm short on 2 cmc removal.
Very true, I think jumping from 2 cmc to 3 cmc is easier than 4 - 6. I probably should have thought of a different comparison, it was just what came to mind. I can think of a lot of games where I didn't hit 6 until turn 7+ and I was effectively out of the game, but if I couldn't get 3 by turn 7 I was really just a bystander. I do tend to play 3 colors (usually including W and or B), unless there is a compelling reason to run 2 or mono, so having to run a tier 3 removal spell is more an indicator of a placeholder or a pet card rather than a needing another 2 cmc removal. I really like the flexibility of W/B/x combos. I will admit I probably run Mortify/Putrefy more than I should.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

I don't really have this problem, I'm the opposite in that I play more removal than I should.

Says the Mardu Guy that has access to everything conceivable under the sun.

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Post by Maluko » 4 years ago

I generally start building my decks with very generic removal spells because, in my experience, versatility wins games. However, during testing, much of that removal ends up being, well, removed. I've found that even the versatility of a generic removal spell is not enough to deal with all the variety of decks you end up facing in Commander. Here are some of the situations I've seen happen in my games:

(1) An opponent removes the threat instead of me;
(2) I hold my removal spell until a suitable threat to use it on appears... but then it doesn't;
(3) I draw it too late in the game to be meaningfully useful;
(4) Forwarding my game plan is more important than removing a threat;
(5) Hexproof and indestructible are a thing.

This isn't to say strict single target removal spells are useless and you shouldn't run them, but rather they aren't impactful in most of the games you play, at least in my metagame. This is why I recommend, during deckbuilding, to aim for high floor cards, i.e. cards that can still have an impact even if they don't fulfill the main purpose you had planned for them in your deck. More concretely, I prefer Dimir Charm over Hero's Downfall because, even in the worst-case scenario, you can cast the Charm to filter the top cards of your library for a better card, while Downfall just stays there, rotting in your hand, unable to deal with that Voltron Commander coming at your face.

Nice analysis you got there, @Hawk!

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago
One thing I'll say for REB/Pyroblast: it's only hitting a little over 1/3 of creatures, but it's also countering blue spells more generally. Basically, if it's blue those cards handle it for R in response, and if it's a creature they handle it even after it resolves. They differ enough from other spot removal to matter.

With those, and abrupt decay, it's important to look at what they hit besides creatures. I'd say one way to look at it is to consider something like Naturalize as a creature removal spell that only hits artifact and enchantment creatures. That's a seriously bad restriction, but it also hits non creature artifacts and enchantments and that dramatically increases it's usefulness. For Pyroblast, being able to protect a combo from a counterspell or counter something like Rite of Replication or Cyclonic Rift is pretty major, and for Abrupt Decay there are numerous important non creature permanents with cmc 3 or less.
That's fair - it's probably more fair to look at Decay as the "Split card" it is. I find Natural State and Smother both shaky, but bundled together and uncounterable is a lot better. I will look more seriously at that in my next, even more ambitious, project. And I'm just about convinced to try out REB just because of how good Jaya Ballard, Task Mage's first ability has been in my Daretti deck - for sure, addining counterspelling to that list opens up a lot.
Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
Interesting write-up. So this literally just looks at the rate of return on all the conditional removals, right? I'm slightly confused as you mention Murder in the intro but never double back.

I'll second Victim of Night, that thing has a crazy good spread. Withering Boon doesn't get enough recognition, nobody expects a black deck to snuff out a juicy ETB. If the deck has ways to sac on demand, Tragic Slip is wicked good too.
I analyzed the first 15-16 restrictions I could think of. There's little value in analyzing Murder and Hero's Downfall, for instance, as I can tell you top of head that it hits 20/20 commanders on both lists, hits 50/50 on my cultivated list, and only misses the Gods (Iroas and Xenagos) on the top 50 creature list. Obviously, if you can run unconditional removal, you should do so...at least, to an extent.

A few restrictions I missed were "Power 2 or less" (Dimir Charm, Krovikan Rot), "Monocolored Creature" (Ultimate Price), "Non-Innistrad Monster" (Victim of Night), and "Multicolored Creature" (Radiant Purge). I do intend to take a look at those to make it an even 20 restrictions. Just from having looked at the first 16 restrictions and from memory, I am going to wager that Victim of Night is great, Radiant Purge is passable, and Ultimate Price and Dimir Charm are awful.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Are you guys really running conditional removal? I would never and have never run anything like Victim of Night or any of that stuff. Just always feel like there're better options to me, even in mono colored I'd rather jam a Duplicant and take a risk than run Dismember.

Even in mono red, probably the worst removal color, I'll just figure out a way not to have to run stuff that's conditional. Maaaaybe sinkhole I guess, but after stuff like Fork or Dualcaster Mage.

It's an interesting bit of analysis but it doesn't seem to resonate to me. I guess I might just be weird in my construction though. Like I'll run Hero's Downfall and pay the 1 vs. Go for the Throat.
To each their own, but I think this is highly meta dependent and not a universal truth. For instance, in MonoRed - yes, of course, first inclusion is Chaos Warp. It hits everything (minus hexproof permanents). Great card is great. If there was a theoretical "Chaos Warp for 1R that only hit creatures"? Well, realistically I'd play both - but I, personally, would favor Warp first since the added targets for 1 mana feels worthwhile (although will be the subject of my next analysis). After that? Certainly I might be up to run two-three of Duplicant, Spine of Ish Sah, Aftershock, Fissure, Scour from Existence, Karn Liberated, and Meteor Golem but I can tell you from firsthand experience you're going to lose a lot of games (if not on the spot than over the long haul) when you have to consistently spend an entire turn cycle and 5+ mana to answer a single threat at sorcery speed, and that's with the synergy of a card like Duplicant in a Daretti deck. Heck even 4+ mana is rough. I was running basically all of those (with Volcanic Offering over Fissure but still), and found that my deck was just. Too. Slow. That's why I've loved Magmatic Sinkhole (which looks like 6 but casts like 1 or 2) and generally have enjoyed the flexibility of Lava Coil and Mizzium Mortars on two.

EDIT: And also, this post can be used for your own purposes too to do the opposite of what I just said - there are over a 1000 people who have decided to jam Terror or Ultimate Price (as well as a non-zero amount of players jamming Reprisal and Radiant's Judgment) without fully considering the ramifications of doing so compared to just running Murder, and this post can help them too to see at what point (calibrated for their own metagame and their own deck) they're better off paying a bit more for a more reliable spell.
Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
I feel the thread's mainly for the benefit of mono-colour players. Usually if you've got 2+ colours' worth of stuff to work with, you can scrounge together a competent removal suite that doesn't need to get too conditional. But what do you do if you're mono black, for example? Hence this might be a bit niche in the grand scheme of EDH, but still a good thing to consider.
Yes, for sure. Although really, for a lot of color combinations, I think the battle starts early. I want my removal to be - 3 CMC or less (two strongly, strongly preferred), Instant Speed, and capable of hitting at least creatures and ideally multiple permanent types. Just as a quick glance...
Removal by Color and Combo
Approximate Total Cost:

Black also has Murderous Cut, Curtains' Call, and Drag to the Underworld which can be 3 or less in the right deck, and Price of Fame which is good enough that I'd at least consider it. And blue does have counters - namely, it has Counterspell and Arcane Denial at 2 CMC, a slew of 3 CMC counters, and then Mana Drain and Force of Will for those with money, but to me, counters occupy a different niche as they have to be reactive. At the same time, it should be noted that even in this list most of that removal comes with drawbacks - and sometimes those drawbacks are enough to rethink it, hence why few people play Afterlife.

For any monocolor deck, as you identify, you immediately have to contend with either paying more mana, dropping to sorcery speed, or playing with restrictions - hence this thread. For almost any base-black deck, you should be fine without it especially once you factor in multicolor spells like Terminate or Mortify, but other color combinations can still find themselves lacking and this thread is, hopefully, still a helpful tool for determining if it's worth running, say, Aftershock in Izzet or if you can get away with something else.

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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

Hawk wrote:
4 years ago
Removal by Color and Combo
Approximate Total Cost:

I see you're not counting Fight effects in green for creature removal on that quick list? Ancient Animus can be quite good. Here's a few you missed.

Black
Sickening Shoal

Red
Skred

Green
Berserk

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Post by Wallycaine » 4 years ago

bobthefunny wrote:
4 years ago
Hawk wrote:
4 years ago
Removal by Color and Combo
Approximate Total Cost:

I see you're not counting Fight effects in green for creature removal on that quick list? Ancient Animus can be quite good. Here's a few you missed.

Black
Sickening Shoal

Red
Skred

Green
Berserk
Given the settings Hawk is working with, all of those count as "Conditional". Both Sickening Shoal and Skred have a toughness basis, while Beserk requires the target to have attacked.

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Post by FoxOfWar » 4 years ago

Pretty good writeup, an interesting read to at least make me think about going through my decks and actually taking a stare at the amount and quality of removal I am running. I try to be sensible and/or on theme with my removal choices.

However...

I do admittedly have one bias though. The original art of Terror is creepy awesomeness, and I will play it even as I know it's less than optimal.
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
4 years ago
bobthefunny wrote:
4 years ago
Hawk wrote:
4 years ago
Removal by Color and Combo
Approximate Total Cost:

I see you're not counting Fight effects in green for creature removal on that quick list? Ancient Animus can be quite good. Here's a few you missed.

Black
Sickening Shoal

Red
Skred

Green
Berserk
Given the settings Hawk is working with, all of those count as "Conditional". Both Sickening Shoal and Skred have a toughness basis, while Beserk requires the target to have attacked.
Yep, precisely. Skred is a card I'd failed to consider mostly due to my own complete lack of enough Snow lands; since it ought to be a 4 or 5 shot for 1 by the time it matters in a mono-colored deck it's definitely a great removal spell, but still a conditional one. Sickening Shoal and Berserk are also conditional, as is any fight card (since it requires you to have a creature with power greater than the target's toughness). That isn't to say Ancient Animus and a few other fight or bite cards aren't decent cards in the right deck but they are highly situational and highly conditional in a way something like Drag to the Underworld isn't.

Berserk is probably the most debatable, but then again I didn't list Soul Snare or Condemn for the same reasoning.

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Post by Inkeyes22 » 4 years ago

Hawk wrote: any fight card
This is pro-G propaganda, pretending they don't have enough toys so they can steal from Esper. I expected better from you Jason!

:grin:

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Curse of Swine is also mono blue unconditional removal for 3 or less, when targeted at only one creature. It's a sorcery that leaves behind a 2/2, but it also exiles and if you have more Mana you can turn more stuff into pigs.

Usually, it's blue and white being in my deck that mean I dont have to look much at conditional removal. White gets you path, swords, and gift, while blue gets you rapid hybrid, pongify, curse of swine, and reality shift, plus counterspells and Rift. Both being in the deck means I'm set for removal, even when the third color is black. Black is actually rather limited when it comes to unconditional options because I'd much, much rather not pay 4 plus for removal without significant benefit. Price of Fame gets a pass because surveil 2 is relevant and it's only 2 Mana when aimed at a commander, companion, or other legend.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Well, this thread makes me feel pretty good about my stance on Despark (I think it's a totally acceptable/good card).

This thread also has given me thing to chew on for whether I should play near-universal-hit tempo cards like Submerge, or continue to run things like Mizzium Mortars.

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