Would you like more Xantcha type legends?

[Cyberium]

WotC appears to be making more and more "do this and profit" legends, i.e., legends that can win you the game without much interaction with another player. I'm talking about more than just "don't attack me," "let this spell go through," "help me kill this," that kind of interactions, I'm talking about legends that warp the momentum of the game.

The finest example here is comparing Chulane, Teller of Tales and Xantcha, Sleeper Agent. With Chulane, people want it dead, but that's usual for any powerful card. With Xantcha though, you decide who gets it initially, each player has the option to choose whether or not they need to activate her ability (making friend or foe), at the same time the controller is forced to attack, and defending player may or may not want to block-kill her due to her card-draw. Xnatcha adds layers of things to consider, while Chulane is just "we need to kill this one".

Chulane-ish seems to be the direction WotC is heading, and it worries me. I understand a standard expansion cannot have Xantcha-ish legends, but commander product ought to have a lot more, because ideally EDH is a game that encourages interactions and planning. They could've allowed Mutate to go on creatures you don't own, that would've entice more politics (You can still do Snapdax + Xantcha though).

So what do you think? Yes or Nay for more Xantcha type legends?

[pokken]

I hate xantcha's design, but I also hate chulane's design. Xantcha's is that she's just a political liability that turns every game into a Xantcha minigame.

Chulane's is that she's just big stupid value engine that you have to kill all the time.

Fundamentally both designs require you to wipe them off the board all the time and that's a design space I hate.

I kinda miss when they didn't design legends for commander at all and they just organically were good.

My short answer is Neither.

[Outcryqq]

Yes, I'd like more Xantcha, Sleeper Agent type cards. I think the design space is different, it makes people think, and it's not been as oppressive in my experience as pokken seems to have experienced. I have a deck built around her and I think she's fun, albeit a bit underpowered.

[DirkGently]

I mean, given the choice between those two, obviously I prefer Xantcha, but that's not really a design space that should be visited super often imo.

Chulane is too open-ended and with too powerful a payoff. "Play creatures" is a really boring condition, explore is a really boring if powerful result. But I think they do fine with, for example, this years crop of commander precons. They all require a more structured build-around than Chulane, and generally with a less powerful payoff. Hence they're interesting to build, more varied to play against, and don't need to die on sight like Chulane does.

Fundamentally both designs require you to wipe them off the board all the time

Why does Xantcha force you to wipe her off the board all the time? As an effect she's pretty tame imo. Even if she's under your control, usually your opponents have more valuable things to do than pay 3 to draw a card and ding you for 2.

[pokken]

In my experience people wind up using it quite a lot and the game kinda revolves around the 5/5 beating face aggressively. Someone who is behind is getting mauled and everyone is able to sink all their mana.

It reminds me of that stupid spider that makes everything attack in the way it alters the game into some kinda weird parody.

The other side of the coin is that a very high percentage of the time it does just incidentally die all the time. I had one game where two players played greater good and I had a high market.

The other thing I've noticed is the percentage of the time xantcha player going to achieve a truly comical amount of card draw is high. When its on the battlefield everyone has to be ready with instant speed removal for a big mana play.

I'm generally not a big fan of infinite mana outlets in the zone as a design strategy especially one someone else can use.

[onering]

Xantcha is pretty far from problematic, but she's not all that interesting. She's pretty easy to deal with, if the controller thinks the owner is going to have infinite Mana they can just send her at a guy who can safely block and kill her with a larger creature. Once you have infinite Mana, the problem is that you have infinite Mana not what you use it on. The Xantcha player could much more easily drop it all into a comet storm and kill everyone, rather than drop it into Xantcha to draw a bunch and hope they get what they need before Xantchas controller dies to her effect. Sure, if someone else has an infinite Mana combo you can help them go off even without their outlet, but again at that point the issue is that someone has infinite Mana.

That said, I like her much better in the 99 than as a commander, because I feel like she's pretty limited as a commander but supports different strategies while in the 99.

Chulane though was just clearly pushed to sell Brawl precons to raise interest in brawl, just like Korvarth and the storm faerie. They intentionally made them open ended and powerful while tangentially connected to set themes. They knew Chulane was dumb when they printed him, that was the point.

[Cyberium]

I should clarify. When I say Xantcha type legends, I meant ones that'd add another layer of thinking into the game, rather than just "I will just get the cards I need then combo off".

Using Pokken's words, I guess we can call it ones that add a "mini-game" to the table.

In my experience people wind up using it quite a lot and the game kinda revolves around the 5/5 beating face aggressively. Someone who is behind is getting mauled and everyone is able to sink all their mana.

It reminds me of that stupid spider that makes everything attack in the way it alters the game into some kinda weird parody.

And what's wrong about that? I'm honestly unsure why that's a problem.

[pokken]

It never seems to be that fun for anyone is all I can say. No one at my shop kept it past the novelty phase.

It's got a lot of parallels to group hug for me, it unnaturally accelerates the pace of the game with everyone getting extra cards and a 5/5 with pseudo haste swinging for the fences

I find most of those minigame commanders awful.

Please accept my disclaimer that the above is just my opinion and I don't pretend it to be the gospel or anything:)

[Mimicvat]

Big fan of Xantcha, or really any other commander that isn't just free value in the command zone. Commanders that impact that gigantic life total and put aggression on the table are more interesting than the types that durdle and draw cards.

[Treamayne]

Why does it have to be A or B?

With spotlight commanders (those that make themselves the focus of the board state) it really depends on the legend and ability. Xantcha, Sleeper Agent is quite group hug-gy and I find her less annoying early game (when players have to choose between drawing and advancing the board state) than late game. However I also find she warps in favor of control decks (who already want to leave mana open and sink @ EOT if unused) and really warps the late-game when the whole table generally has more mana available.

Chulane, Teller of Tales-ish legends are the kind that I like to build with but hate playing against. They are so over-the-top that, as said previously, they get a "kill-first" stigma. I think most people playing them are trying to break it, or just have the 13-going-on-30 mentality (if I do this thing, how much can I get away with before being slapped down). However, I think a "responsible Johnny" can take those kinds of cards and do something unique - with the hope of not breaking it - and make a genuinely fun deck (My first Beast deck was Uril, the Miststalker, back before the precons that gave us more Beast legends and when Uril was very overplayed as a voltron general. Having him be beast tribal with only 2 auras in the whole deck was a fun and different deck to pilot; even if it was an uphill battle each game to convince players you weren't going the assumed Uril route).

All that said, what I really want are more Sydri, Galvanic Genius and Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer type legends. Good enough for the 99 and the command zone. Build-around generals broad enough to have multiple avenues to explore but not so broad they always become goodstuff.dek. Gimme a good solid story in the command zone where the general supports the deck and the deck supports the general.

[Cyberium]

It never seems to be that fun for anyone is all I can say. No one at my shop kept it past the novelty phase.

It's got a lot of parallels to group hug for me, it unnaturally accelerates the pace of the game with everyone getting extra cards and a 5/5 with pseudo haste swinging for the fences

I find most of those minigame commanders awful.

Please accept my disclaimer that the above is just my opinion and I don't pretend it to be the gospel or anything:)

Likewise. As mentioned, I think commanders had becoming more and more value-centric and many of them are good enough that you can almost ignore interacting with your table. Again, I'm not talking about interactions such as destroy/counter/don't attack, but ones that strongly affect dynamics between players. I think commanders that add another layer of thinking such as Xantcha and Thantis are good for every table, because it forces people out of their comfort zone. I occasionally add Planeschase and/or Archenemy to my table to encourage further brainstorm.

Why does it have to be A or B?

It doesn't. I used Chulane and Xantcha to demonstrate two polars. There are ones like Sydri (which you mentioned) that have application beyond yourself are great middle ground, and I took prefer seeing those more than pure-value ones like Chulane.

[Treamayne]

@Cyberium I realized you didn't mean those two cards specifically. However, you have my apologies for misinterpreting that you were asking if players preferred one of (only) those two archetypes.