How many cards per game does your commander represent?

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

An interesting discussion in the drannith magistrate thread that I think might have broader appeal.. how many cards does your typical commander represent per game?

Feel free to discuss that topic more broadly but I'll start with my main decks.

Maelstrom wanderer is typically cast 3 times in a game so at his worst he probably generates 9 cards. Since he casts them for freetheres also huge temp but just cards.

Ephara games typically she will draw around 10-20 cards a game. I'd say conservatively 10. I've had games where she drew 30+ tho.

My golos decks are all pretty bad at activating him but all of them will typically will range from 3 or 4 activations to 10 or 15. I'd say the floor is casting him twice for four cards and activating 3 times for 9. So 13 cards typically in a game.
-- the other night I activated him six times in a turn lol.

My feather deck shamelessly copied from rumpy is probably the most egregious ca in the zone often representing 4 or 5 cards a turn. I've had games where I saw 50 cards. Conservatively if say around 15 cards a game

You?

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

I feel like, while some commanders can very easily be equated to an average number of cards they represent, like Maelstrom Wanderer; Korvold, Fae-Cursed King; Chulane, Teller of Tales; etc., there are vastly more commanders that are much harder to quantify.

How do you determine the number of virtual cards represented by something like Kykar, Wind's Fury? Do you count just the actual cards drawn from a Kenrith, the Returned King, or do you also count the virtual cards represented by his other abilities?

With all that said, for the ones currently listed in my signature...
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I've been thinking on a simple way to classify the tempo focused commanders - if you distill kykars effect for example to card equivalency it'd probably overstate his power. But for me I'd say every two or three triggers being worth a card is close.

It's tough and starts to feel like reaching to support my point but I don't think it's that far off.

Maelstrom wanderer surely is worth more than just the cards since he casts them for free too.

Like Dirk said its really hard to.quantify but spitballing I think is a reasonable exercise.

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Post by plushpenguin » 3 years ago

Usually 1 for Xenagod unless I get a power-based draw spell (where it can be as many as 20). However, instead of being worth extra cards, it seeks to deny the opponents their value.. by making them dead fast.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Thinking through my 3 main commanders, I don't think I'd trade any of them (while keeping the deck the same) for "draw 1 card per turn (cycle)" as an emblem. They're all too integral to what the deck is trying to do, in their own way. Phelddagrif gives me the ability to lurk in the shadows, make deals, and control the flow of the game, and usually doesn't need a ton of CA to keep the game under control. Kaervek has some alternative wincons (insofar as Mirage Mirror or Reiterate are wincons...I don't really believe in "win conditions", as per my flair :P) but realistically the vast majority of the deck is dedicated to making him effective, so drawing extra cards isn't worth much without him. And Zirilan is really more about tempo and flexibility than card advantage. No amount of draw is going to put Thunder Dragon into play to clear a board on tokens on turn 5 in response to a craterhoof, or Worldgorger Dragon in response to Armageddon.

But then there also commanders I've played like, say, Gallia of the Endless Dance, which could pretty easily be replaced by such an emblem. She generates +1 card per turn she can trigger, which is generally starting T3. And sometimes better than that, since she might discard a phoenix for value, plus she deals damage. Of course she's vulnerable to removal, bad draws preventing her from triggering, or blocks preventing enough creatures from profitably attacking. If I could trade her for a "draw every turn" emblem I think that'd likely be stronger overall, even though she's a pretty efficient little draw engine slash beatstick within her deck.
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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

Nice topic.

MW - covered. Funnily, I don't think I ever cast it just 3 times. Like... I have games where it only gets cast once or twice, and games where it is cast 7-8 times.
The Ur Dragon - probably draws an average of 5 cards when it hits the board. Try to cast it every game. Magistrate affects Ur Dragon the least though of all my decks.
Marchesa, the Black Rose - probably represents about 10 cards per game. Not card draw per say.
Reyhan, last of the Abzan is not card advantage - more like something that multiplies the efficacy of my deck. Reyhan makes the rest of the deck 3-5 times stronger.
Karador, Ghost Chieftain probably represents about 3 cards on average.
Kefnet, the Mindful, represents somewhere between 4 and 99 cards per game, lol. It's a high tide deck that wants to go infinite.
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath represents 2 cards. I just use it to make demons... probably average 3 per game.
Mina and Denn, Wildborn is interesting. 0 card advantage. Gives me 2.5x more mana as I can activate Nykthos 2 additional times per turn. Deck is resistant to Magistrate though.
Mogis, god of slaughter - Mogis gives me 0 cards. Just a source of pressure as I stall up the game. Deck is okay without Mogis...
Arjun, the shifting flame represents and average of ... 75 card draws? More? I often go through my deck 2-3 times.
Rakdos, Lord of Riots - 0 card advantage, but enables the whole deck. There is no backup method to cast my fatties.
The Scarab God - Newer deck... but I think it represents about 8 cards per game?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest - probably represents about 3 cards on average. Deck can manage without Shu Yun, but giving double strike can make certain creatures or equipment 'go off'.
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - probably represents 5-7 cards per game. As a sac outlet, it enables a lot of the deck's functionality.
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Post by tempoEDH » 3 years ago

Current Decks
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death: 5-6 cards per game. Normally by that point the game is over, if they lasted longer, cards represented would grow linearly
Emmara, Soul of the Accord: Doesn't actually draw any cards, but pretty important to the deck
Edgar Markov: Similar to Emmara. Doesn't draw anything, but it kind of represents cards through the tokens it generates from cz
Karlov of the Ghost Council: Wow my commanders really don't like drawing cards, huh?
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Full on zombie tribal, sidisi shows me around 15 cards on a decent game, any kind of altar shenanigans and that changes to 70-80
Yarok, the Desecrated: this is very difficult for me to quantify. Yarok really only represents cards when I play an elvish visionary effect. Between that, and card advantage from removal creatures, I'd have to say 25-30 cards per game. Yarok is a beast
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden: Again, pretty hard to quantify. I probably activate him 20-30 times per game

Future Decks
These are decks where I've created them on online deckbuilders and goldfished them, maybe once or twice against a real opponent, to decide what to change before I buy them
Silas Renn, Seeker Adept//Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa: This deck is a little nuts with card draw, but partners make it interesting. I'll do them each seperately. Silas Renn probably returns around 5-6 cards per game for me, but those are often egg-like artifacts. We'll call it 10. Sidar Kondo, on the other hand, is surprisingly the advantage engine. She probably nets me around 20-30 cards each game,
Marisi, Breaker of the Coil: Nothing.
Kalamax, the Stormsire: Least played so far, so not entirely sure about this. It's looking like kalamax himself gives me around 8-9 cards each game. The deck is built with a mindset that is extremely similar to jori en, ruin diver, so it's just kalamax copying cantrips on other people's turns :|
Current Decks:
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Karlov of the Ghost Council EDH
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant EDH
Edgar Markov EDH
Emmara, Soul of the Accord EDH
Yarok, the Desecrated EDH
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
Kalamax (No infinites) EDH
Ghalta EDH
Current Projects:
Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa/Silas Renn, Seeker Adept EDH
Neheb, the Eternal EDH

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Post by cryogen » 3 years ago

Pretty wide spread for me as well:

Edgar: generates tokens on an average of 1 per turn, also gives an attack boost (I'll guess I get to do that a couple if times a game at best). These effects can be had quite easily for one card each, so I'll guess it nets 2-3 virtual cards?

Karador: I rarely cast him, but when I do he survives long enough to cast a couple of cards. I'll be generous and say 1 virtual card (on average)

Mathas: I cast him 2-3 times per game, and his bounty counters net me easily 1-5 cards a game. 3-5 virtual cards on average

Marisi: If we assume that recasting your general counts, then 1, maybe two virtual cards if I squint hard enough to view "not getting attacked is like a Fog in hand"

Meren: Easily 5+ virtual cards over the course of a game

Mizzex: Her cost reduction combined with building a deck full of wheels let's me see most of my decks, so 20-50 cards?

Muldrotha: 2-4 cards per turn cycle when she survives, maybe an average of 10 cards per game?

Rubinia: Theft is probably worth a few cards a game

Jaliria: In theory I'm polymorphing a creature a turn, and sometime I'll hit some card draw. Maybe one or two cards a game in virtual draw?

Brago: Blinking stuff for card draw and repeated value is his thing, so a bunch of virtual draw.
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Post by Airi » 3 years ago

I'm just going to go off of my non-Ikoria decks, because, obviously, I haven't had a chance to use any of the new ones.

Marath - .5? That might be generous. I have two cards in the deck that let me turn Marath specifically in to card advantage, but that's not really what he's there for. He builds up a board presence and acts as removal, predominately, to buy me enough time to win.

Kenrith - Actually 0. I can count on one hand how many times I've cast Kenrith and actually have him stick in play long enough to activate (and this is currently my most played deck), and of those times, I don't think I've ever activated his draw ability. He exists to look pretty and to be a flavor win from the command zone, as King Arthur at the helm of a bunch of legends spoke to me.

Najeela - She doesn't draw cards, she just kills people. Even with effects like Raiders' Spoils, she's not specifically doing anything the deck wouldn't already give me, she just speeds it all up.

Yuriko - She does draw several cards per game, though I'd argue that the actual card draw is secondary to the damage. We'll call it 10, on average? Our games tend to be on the shorter side unless people are specifically pulling out more casual decks.

Korvold - More than I care to count.

Oketra (Budget) - Also 0, unless casting your general counts. Then it's 1.

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Post by folding_music » 3 years ago

Grenzo is worth incredible numbers of cards. Dunno? All the other commanders I play are insanely woolly, the sort of card half teh people on this forum would tell me to cut for a mana rock.

Riven Turnbull: one? once I tapped him to cast an exact lethal Exsanguinate, is that a card?
Siona: one and a half for every casting, except you probably never cast her a third time? is a 1/1 human soldier a card?
Callaphe: one card, one time walk vs every Pongify nerd at the table?
Obzedat: they're the deck's main win condition; is dodging all sorcery-speed removal a card? how many cards is Obdezat plus Deadly Wanderings worth, a hundred?
Rasputin: casts a huge X spell for me every time he hits play, how many cards is seven mana worth? how many cards is cycling four cards worth?

the question hits me like something Rakso'd post in an apprentice log from 2001

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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

Hmmm.... hard to quantify this number, since it really isn't something I track. Looking at my decks....
  • Samut: doesn't draw cards directly, but she can grant additional cards indirectly off Humble Defector or Skullclamp + Thraben Doomsayer (or another token producer). Maybe 1 extra card per game on average?
  • Teysa: like Samut, doesn't draw cards directly, but can draw indirectly by producing tokens. Probably around 2 cards on average.
  • Kess: generates virtual card advantage by letting me flashback stuff, and actual card advantage if those are draw spells. I'd estimate that I cast 4 spells off her in an average game, so 4 cards.
  • Mizzix: arguably draws cards by reducing the cost of Blue Sun's Zenith and friends, but in the deck primarily for mana production, and tends to not be played until I'm ready to go off anyway. 1 extra card (but lots of extra mana).
  • Thada: draws cards from my opponents' decks, sort of. Somewhat unique in that the quality of hits goes down over time, as my opponents run out of valid targets. Probably gets 3 triggers/cards per game. But, like Mizzix, here primarily for mana production (by stealing Sol Rings).
  • Brago: alongside Mulldrifter, draws stupid numbers of cards per turn. Probably 8+ extra cards per game, but cut that in half when you account for his tendency to attract removal. (also a fair amount extra mana from flickering mana rocks)
  • Sharuum: again, usually only comes out when I'm planning to combo. I'd estimate 1 extra card, whichever artifact I happen to reanimate. But if I'm reanimating a draw engine, then that number can indirectly be much larger.
  • Tasigur: number of cards drawn per turn tends to increase linearly with number of turns in the game, which makes him very hard to estimate. Opponents tend to scoop once I've gotten around 6 extra cards in a single turn cycle. On the other hand, if the game doesn't get to lategame, then he'll have drawn zero cards, so I'd estimate around 2 cards on average.
  • Animar: like Mizzix and Thada, primarily functions as a mana rock, but I don't even have X draw spells to benefit from. 0 extra cards (but absurd amounts of mana).
Aggregate number, just in terms of cards drawn, is around 2 cards drawn off the general per game - 1 card directly, 1 card indirectly. Very high variance though - some commanders draw barely any cards, while others are capable of snowballing the card advantage out of control. Unsurprisingly, commanders that directly generate card advantage tend to generate more of it than commanders that have to jump through hoops. Numbers also get more complicated to calculate once you throw in indirect draw - if I use Thada to cast Mind's Eye and draw 5 cards off it, does that mean Thada drew those 5 cards, 6 cards (counting Mind's Eye), or just the original 1? Something to consider.

I'll also call out that mana advantage is just as important as card advantage when evaluating a commander... but that number is likely even harder to evaluate.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

One small point of clarification I'd make is that each cast of your commander absolutely counts. So if you cast your commander in a game, that's 1, if you do it again that's 2.

Right now I'm leaving off thinking about the mana advantage commanders, but I believe that too can be estimated in value.

Using Animar, Soul of Elements as an example, there is definitely a virtual card advantage to being able to sling a kozilek for 0. My inclination is to assign a rough value to each point of cost reduction used in a game -- something like 1 card / 4 mana or something like that. But I really don't know.

also re: Tokens

I think tokens have to count as cards somehow. I mean people legitimately play Hordeling Outburst in commander. My rough inclination is to just...swag it. 3 tokens is 1 card. Whatever. It won't be that far off :)

Copying something is a card, definitely.

If your commander taps to do something that's worth a card I'd count each activation (e.g. Prime Speaker Vannifar.)

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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
One small point of clarification I'd make is that each cast of your commander absolutely counts. So if you cast your commander in a game, that's 1, if you do it again that's 2.

If your commander taps to do something that's worth a card I'd count each activation (e.g. Prime Speaker Vannifar.)
To quibble with some points: I think casting the commander should only count if the body is relevant or it does something relevant on the field. To illustrate, imagine something like Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger as an extreme case. The body doesn't matter the first time you cast them, because it immediately goes to the graveyard. So he should only be "worth" the ETB effect, not a seperate card for himself. Similarly, someone like Rhys the Redeemed is rarely trading for a card's worth of value just by being cast. He needs to rely on his abilities to do that.

Speaking of abilities, I'm skeptical of including Prime Speaker Vannifar as a "gaining" you a card per activation. There's a reason Neoform isn't considered card advantage. A better example would be Arcanis the Omnipotent.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
To quibble with some points: I think casting the commander should only count if the body is relevant or it does something relevant on the field. To illustrate, imagine something like Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger as an extreme case. The body doesn't matter the first time you cast them, because it immediately goes to the graveyard. So he should only be "worth" the ETB effect, not a seperate card for himself. Similarly, someone like Rhys the Redeemed is rarely trading for a card's worth of value just by being cast. He needs to rely on his abilities to do that.

Speaking of abilities, I'm skeptical of including Prime Speaker Vannifar as a "gaining" you a card per activation. There's a reason Neoform isn't considered card advantage. A better example would be Arcanis the Omnipotent.
I think it's largely pointless to quibble down to this level of detail; shorthanding the commander as a card per cast is a simple way to assess value to static abilities and combo outlets and so on. If you cast it, you had a reason that you think was worth the mana.

regarding neoform -- that's exactly the thought I had. if I had neoform and I cast it, that's 1 card I cast -- it doesn't give me advantage, but it was a card when I cast it. if I tap vannifar, it's like casting neoform. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. In any event I think vannifar activation is worth far closer to a card than not :P

If we wanted to really analyze all this we'd need to get really down into the weeds. I'm more after rough estimates.

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Post by Airi » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
One small point of clarification I'd make is that each cast of your commander absolutely counts. So if you cast your commander in a game, that's 1, if you do it again that's 2.
Well.... then I guess Kenrith is .00001

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Airi wrote:
3 years ago
Marath - .5? That might be generous. I have two cards in the deck that let me turn Marath specifically in to card advantage, but that's not really what he's there for. He builds up a board presence and acts as removal, predominately, to buy me enough time to win.
An interesting point here is that I think removal has to count as cards. If your commander repeatedly machineguns creatures that's got to count as cards right?

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Post by Airi » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Airi wrote:
3 years ago
Marath - .5? That might be generous. I have two cards in the deck that let me turn Marath specifically in to card advantage, but that's not really what he's there for. He builds up a board presence and acts as removal, predominately, to buy me enough time to win.
An interesting point here is that I think removal has to count as cards. If your commander repeatedly machineguns creatures that's got to count as cards right?
I wouldn't count it that way, I'm not gaining CA, because I'm devoting just as many spots to powering up that removal as I would be to straight up removal spells if I didn't have Marath.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Airi wrote:
3 years ago
I wouldn't count it that way, I'm not gaining CA, because I'm devoting just as many spots to powering up that removal as I would be to straight up removal spells if I didn't have Marath.
I would think that marath + basilisk collar kills more creatures than Swords to Plowshares doesn't it?

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Post by Dunharrow » 3 years ago

Basically, it boils down to two options:
1. Does your commander just add on to what your deck is trying to do?
2. Does your commander enable the deck to work?

If you look at Prime Speaker Zegana drawing a bunch of cards - Would Spirit of the Labyrinth not be pretty close in effect to Magistrate?
Zegana is typically just a way to refill your hand in a UG goodstuff deck.

But many decks literally do not work without the commander, because you picked this unique legendary creature and built around its abilities. My Phenax, God of Deceoption deck is a clear example of this.

How many people build decks like # 1 or #2? I am more aligned with #2 for most of my decks. Is that wrong?

I wish Magistrate had been symmetrical. Then it could be an interesting decision for EDH.
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Post by Airi » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Airi wrote:
3 years ago
I wouldn't count it that way, I'm not gaining CA, because I'm devoting just as many spots to powering up that removal as I would be to straight up removal spells if I didn't have Marath.
I would think that marath + basilisk collar kills more creatures than Swords to Plowshares doesn't it?
It kills more creatures, but it's not saving me card slots. If we're going that route, you can't count a commander as a normal form of card advantage. Something that you always have in your hand, even when it's removed counts as more than just drawing a card per turn, and I don't think it can be boiled down so simply in the way that this thread means.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Airi wrote:
3 years ago
It kills more creatures, but it's not saving me card slots. If we're going that route, you can't count a commander as a normal form of card advantage. Something that you always have in your hand, even when it's removed counts as more than just drawing a card per turn, and I don't think it can be boiled down so simply in the way that this thread means.
I think it's definitely hard to quantify exactly, because for sure consistency is a huge advantage. I'm interested in how people think about more general questions of how much value a commander represents as well.

Cards are also not equal - if your commander is a search effect and only gets one card a game, that can be significantly better than the hypothetical two cards.

If the end result is you can't reduce it to a rough estimate of value, so be it :)

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Post by Airi » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I think it's definitely hard to quantify exactly, because for sure consistency is a huge advantage. I'm interested in how people think about more general questions of how much value a commander represents as well.

Cards are also not equal - if your commander is a search effect and only gets one card a game, that can be significantly better than the hypothetical two cards.

If the end result is you can't reduce it to a rough estimate of value, so be it :)
I guess I have a hard time quantifying it because while I do try to build all of my decks to involve the general heavily, either because it's the core engine like Marath and Tayam, or by synergizing with the theme, like Otrimi or Najeela, it's also important to me that they're not a lynch pin, and that I have things to do without them. Because frankly, my board dies. A lot. So while you might look at Marath and go, "That's a whole lot of value!" all I see is something that's great when it's there, but ultimately just makes what I'm already doing better.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

I had not thought of this mentality in deckbuilding, that's an interesting question. I'm not doing every deck, but I want to think about this for most that I have built.

EDIT: I'm counting mostly the effective cards cast instead of card slots here. I added a 1.5 or 2 multiplier to number of casts if the commander is absolutely required or sufficiently unique. I was trying to account for recasts as the primary CA for commanders that are voltron or combo focused. On review it would actually make sense to look at real card advantage, virtual card advantage and deck slots. Does BBS support tables?
EDIT2: updated based on the premise that 3 tokens is a card.
  • Kemba, Kha Regent: cast 2-3 times per game to hold equipment. Generates enough tokens to be worth a couple cards. Probably equivalent to 5 cards/game.
  • Talrand, Sky Summoner: Generates most of my CA via Coastal Piracy. Probably generates 10-30 cards/game in real CA, and another 5 in virtual CA from tokens.
  • Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign: Generates all my CA. Reveals at least 50 cards/game. Average is probably 50 actual cards drawn, with an additional 100 virtual CA from card selection (including reshuffling).
  • Geth, Lord of the Vault: Virtual CA from theft is probably 5 cards/game average and 10 cards/game if those thefts were optimal, eg. Seedborn Muse.
  • Zada, Hedron Grinder: 85 cards, because the game ends by turn 7 one way or another. Creates up to 10^18 virtual CA from tokens.
  • Krenko, Mob Boss: cast 1-3 times per game. Only generates more real CA with skullclamp but has massive virtual CA from tokens. Averages around 15 cards/game?
  • Patron of the Orochi: no significant direct CA, but the mana generated is worth multiple Caged Sun effects. Probably worth 4-6 cards/game on average.
  • Ghalta, Primal Hunger: Combo piece and storm enabler, as well as primary source of cards via Greater Good or Life's Legacy. I'd credit it with generating half of the 40-80 cards drawn/game when successful. Otherwise probably 6 cards minimum.
  • Gargos, Vicious Watcher: cast 1-3 times per game, and primary source of removal. No virtual CA unless I can re-use my auras. Including cost reduction is probably 3 cards/game average and at least 4 more if I'm sacrificing Rancor to Claws of Gix.
  • Medomai the Ageless: Directly responsible for 4-10 cards/game in draw and ramp. Thankfully, while this is tempo, it is straightforward.
  • Baron Von Count: Directly responsible for the deck functioning at all, but no CA. I don't know how to measure this. it's either 2 or 60. What's the equivalent virtual CA to killing a player: 6?
  • Nikya of the Old Ways: similar to Patron, probably worth 4 cards/game in repeatable Mana Flare.
  • Athreos, God of Passage: recurs an average of 6-12 cards/game from Shadowborn Apostles.
  • Nin, the Pain Artist: Creates most of the CA in the deck, ideally generates at least 25 cards/game. Averages around 10-15?
  • Gisela, Blade of Goldnight: 1-2 casts/game, each worth 2 card due to the favorable comparison to Furnace of Rath. At least 4 cards/game in virtual CA.
  • Feather, the Redeemed: Probably worth at least 10-20 cards in virtual CA from recursion.
  • Roon of the Hidden Realm: Recurring EtB and removal is probably at least 6 cards/game. Around 10 cards/game on the average.
  • Sydri, Galvanic Genius: Engine/combo enabler, but no direct CA. Cast 1-4 times/game, but the deck can barely win without her. 8 cards/game to weight at 2 cards in value per cast.
  • Mairsil, the Pretender: Directly responsible for the deck functioning, but adds repeatability and resilience. Probably generates 5-10 virtual CA by protecting cards from removal? If Mairsil doesn't stick then those cards are lost forever. This one is difficult, probably worth at least 8 cards due to the focused nature.
  • Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: Prosh does nothing, but half of my real partners is The Gitrog Monster, which creates CA most games. Borborygmos Enraged rarely generates CA. At the cost of -2 CA to tutor Gitrog, it generates around 6 cards on average. 4 cards/game total?
  • Marath, Will of the Wild: 2-4 casts/game, with removal equipment to make each cast an average of 5 removal spells. Worth around 7 cards/game if half of that is attributable to Marath.
  • Queen Marchesa: usually trades the monarchy with others for CA and tokens in long games. Probably draws 7 cards/game, but also gives CA to an opponent. I guess that's 4-5 effective CA if In only deal with half of the resources given out. Including tokens pushes up to 6 cards/game.
  • Riku of Two Reflections creatures and spells: Both decks cast Riku 2-4 times/game on average. Do copies count as virtual CA? If so; creature-Riku is probably 3 CA and 5 virtual CA. spell-Riku is probably 2 CA and 8 virtual CA.
  • Animar, Soul of Elements: Cost reduction for morphs. Probably just worth the casts, 2 cards/game.
  • Ghave, Guru of Spores: Engine/combo enabler, but no direct CA. Cast 1-3 times/game. Worth double and including tokens makes this 5 cards/game.
  • Tasigur, the Golden Fang: Intentionally the only source of direct CA. Generates at 15 cards/game average. Another 10 virtual CA if I have a willing opponent handing me removal repeatedly.
  • Zedruu the Greathearted: Generates around 1-2 cards/turn most games. Around 8 cards/game total.
  • Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder: Another storm deck. Cascade is odd, so each cascade is probably 1.5 cards due to free casting. Average game has 2-3 cascades so Yidris is 4-8 cards/game average (and > 40 when storming).
  • Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis: Similar issue to Marchesa, usually sticks around for a while but is partially-symmetric. If 1 extra land in play is approximately equal to 1.5 cards drawn then they never overcome the opponent's benefit with >2 opponents. If I only offset by the equivalent fraction I give my opponents (1/3 in a 4 player game) then my kings always generate around 1 CA/turn. That's probably 4 cards/game, but this feels like an underestimate.
  • Saskia the Unyielding: Aggro, represents 1-3 casts/game but is an uncommon effect. I'd estimate 3 cards/game in value for a creature with one-sided Furnace of Rath.
  • Tymna & Kydele: Tymna represents virtually all my CA that isn't Edric, Spymaster of Trest. In 4 player, at 3 cards/turn that's probably 15 cards/game?
  • Atraxa, Praetors' Voice: No direct CA here, but proliferating my experience counters is probably some virtual CA. Saves around 5 cards/game at the same experience count, so probably 4 cards/game including casts.
  • Akiri & Silas: Silas usually recasts equipment 2-4 times/game. Including casts that represents 6 cards/game.
  • Genju of the Realm: commander does nothing without an enchantress or Humility. Might not even be worth 1 card/game.
  • Sisay, Weatherlight Captain: I cut most other CA to make legendary tribal more of a toolbox. If each activation is 1 card, probably around 4 cards/game.
  • Golos, Tireless Pilgrim: This superfriends deck generates most of it's own CA, but Golos still probably brings 4-5 cards/game.
  • Horde of Notions: Recasts a couple elementals/game. Probably worth 5 cards/game.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
One small point of clarification I'd make is that each cast of your commander absolutely counts. So if you cast your commander in a game, that's 1, if you do it again that's 2.

Right now I'm leaving off thinking about the mana advantage commanders, but I believe that too can be estimated in value.

Using Animar, Soul of Elements as an example, there is definitely a virtual card advantage to being able to sling a kozilek for 0. My inclination is to assign a rough value to each point of cost reduction used in a game -- something like 1 card / 4 mana or something like that. But I really don't know.
I feel like your decks are way more straightforward in value generation from the command zone than my decks are. My decks get stupid hard to quantify. I'll go from most easy to quantify to hardest.

Chromium - 1 card, full stop. I usually cast him once and then he dies to a Vindicate once. It's incredibly consistent actually.

Gishath, Sun's Avatar - I usually cast him and swing for about 2 dinos. He dies. I cast him again and then swing twice for about 2 dinos a swing. That's a total of 8 cards and a rough guess at 30 free mana (6 free 5-drop-ish dinos)

The Ur-Dragon - The Ur-Dragon usually gets cast once. It either wins me the game or dies almost immediately. So that's either a ton of cards or 1-3. I'll call it 2 cards but more importantly it generates a ton of free mana since I loop changelings a lot. Probably generates around 25 free mana a game.

Progenitus - He's a finisher in my political dredge deck. He'll only get cast once but then he'll usually immediately kill someone with anger and Savage Beating. How many cards do you value a dead opponent as? He's worth 1 dead opponent on average.

Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker - uuuuuh. If I sacrifice Doomed Dissenter to Viscera Seer with a Pitiless Plunderer on board and Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker reanimates him... is that 1 card or... ? If I generate 8 treasure tokens over a single 4 player turn cycle and then use those to cast Rise of the Dark Realms that I wouldn't have had the mana for otherwise...? Where are we at? I guess I'd value Shirei at 4 Verdant Forces? So I guess I value him at 4 cards and 32 free mana ... I usually cast him twice a game so 8 cards and 64 free mana?

Golos Tireless Pilgrim - My golos deck is built to have as many timmy filled terrible curve toppers as possible. If I activate golos, and flip Conflux and Aminatou's Augury. Is that two cards or seven? Is flipping Grozoth and drawing six 9-drops 1 card or 7? Is casting golos twice to find Cabal Coffers and Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth worth only 2 cards when the deck plays only 9 drops and desperately desperately needs that mana? I guess I'd call each golos trigger 7 free mana and 6 cards of value? If I activate him 3 times a game I guess I'd call him 20 cards and 50 free mana (20 from spell triggers and 30 from Cabal Coffers).

Lazav, the Multifarious - Uh... The point of this deck is to make lasav a hexproof, indestructible 9/8. I usually only cast him once and then he never leaves the battlefield. He also doesn't create any card advantage. He just kinda awkwardly voltrons people out while being a huge mana sink. So... 1 card, -30 mana? I guess?


I personally think the amount of free mana-generation a general has is way more indicative of power level than the amount of cards a general draws. For example if Maelstrom Wanderer was chopped into two separate cards one with "on cast: draw 2 cards" and the other was "on cast: cast two 7-drop or less spells from your hand for free". I think the later is way more scary.

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Diz
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Post by Diz » 3 years ago

Airi wrote:
3 years ago
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I think it's definitely hard to quantify exactly, because for sure consistency is a huge advantage. I'm interested in how people think about more general questions of how much value a commander represents as well.

Cards are also not equal - if your commander is a search effect and only gets one card a game, that can be significantly better than the hypothetical two cards.

If the end result is you can't reduce it to a rough estimate of value, so be it :)
I guess I have a hard time quantifying it because while I do try to build all of my decks to involve the general heavily, either because it's the core engine like Marath and Tayam, or by synergizing with the theme, like Otrimi or Najeela, it's also important to me that they're not a lynch pin, and that I have things to do without them. Because frankly, my board dies. A lot. So while you might look at Marath and go, "That's a whole lot of value!" all I see is something that's great when it's there, but ultimately just makes what I'm already doing better.
I'm inclined to agree, here - at least, with my primary deck. Nicol Bolas, himself, doesn't generate value - but I frequently see all 100 cards in the deck because of the way it plays. The times when I do cast him, he makes people discard things, I guess? Does that count?

Jhoira probably helps me cast 4-8 cards on average, per game, depending on how early she hits the board and what I draw.

I haven't played Slimefoot, yet.

Tatyova draws a lot of cards, but I've only played her twice, so...

I haven't played Rona, yet.

Brion generates 0 value for the deck beyond damage.

I haven't built Karametra, yet.

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