Mutate creatures in the 99
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I wanted to explore something a bit different regarding the Mutate mechanic. Specifically, are there are any cards with mutate that you want to play in the 99?
As a commander, you can build around mutate... but in the 99, chances are you won't get to trigger it more than once, so the effect needs to be pretty strong.
I was just thinking about Vadrok, Apex of Thunder for my Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest. It is essentially 4 mana give Shu Yun flying, first strike (worthless) and cast a spell from my graveyard.
I can't see any other mutate cards I would really want to play in the deck. Giving Shu Yun evasion permanently sounds pretty good, and getting a free spell out of it.
Never mind if I throw it on a Geist of Saint-Traft or something.
What do you think? Have you considered any mutate cards in the 99?
As a commander, you can build around mutate... but in the 99, chances are you won't get to trigger it more than once, so the effect needs to be pretty strong.
I was just thinking about Vadrok, Apex of Thunder for my Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest. It is essentially 4 mana give Shu Yun flying, first strike (worthless) and cast a spell from my graveyard.
I can't see any other mutate cards I would really want to play in the deck. Giving Shu Yun evasion permanently sounds pretty good, and getting a free spell out of it.
Never mind if I throw it on a Geist of Saint-Traft or something.
What do you think? Have you considered any mutate cards in the 99?
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme
I second Parcelbeast as an option for UGx decks. I have also considered Nethroi, Apex of Death for Karador but it might be just beyond what I want to pay for the effect. It likely comes down to whether I am finally willing to cut Protean Hulk
Sea-Dasher Octopus is one that I am almost positive I will be slotting into Sygg as a way to a) trigger Sygg and b) draw more cards.
Otherwise, I think there are a few here and there but nothing else that has really stood out to me (that I can remember anyway). I might have mentioned a couple others in my Primer and deck threads but I am kind of lazy and don't want to look.
Sea-Dasher Octopus is one that I am almost positive I will be slotting into Sygg as a way to a) trigger Sygg and b) draw more cards.
Otherwise, I think there are a few here and there but nothing else that has really stood out to me (that I can remember anyway). I might have mentioned a couple others in my Primer and deck threads but I am kind of lazy and don't want to look.
Parcelbeast is okay; I'm not sure I would call it amazing. I'd be lying if I said I didn't preorder a couple of copies.
I think the Jeskai mutate situation is pretty sad. Vadrok looks really exciting to me on paper, but most of the white mutate creatures look pretty lackluster, red has almost nothing, and that leaves a heap in blue and the r/u hybrid one, but you're investing a lot to get a free spell or two.
I plan on playing a few of the mutates just on their own depending on the synergy with other creatures; Parcelbeast, possibly Gemrazer if I'm going to enhance the stats of something like Cold-Eyed Selkie. Maybe a few others that are just-barely-worth-it alone like Migratory Greathorn.
Mutate definitely wants to be played with as many other mutates as possible... very few of them are standalone (I would say Parcelbeast and the mythics are basically the only ones that I would consider just jamming in almost anything). That said, I'm waiting for the prices of the mythics to drop, because they're not that exciting.
I think the Jeskai mutate situation is pretty sad. Vadrok looks really exciting to me on paper, but most of the white mutate creatures look pretty lackluster, red has almost nothing, and that leaves a heap in blue and the r/u hybrid one, but you're investing a lot to get a free spell or two.
I plan on playing a few of the mutates just on their own depending on the synergy with other creatures; Parcelbeast, possibly Gemrazer if I'm going to enhance the stats of something like Cold-Eyed Selkie. Maybe a few others that are just-barely-worth-it alone like Migratory Greathorn.
Mutate definitely wants to be played with as many other mutates as possible... very few of them are standalone (I would say Parcelbeast and the mythics are basically the only ones that I would consider just jamming in almost anything). That said, I'm waiting for the prices of the mythics to drop, because they're not that exciting.
My thoughts exactly. I personally love mutate and even built a deck around Otrimi, the Ever-Playful (which is very quirky and fun to pilot!). But Wizards blew up the mechanic in two ways. First, red and white got the short end of the stick both in the number of mutating creatures and in the power level of the abilities. Second, they made the mechanic too parasitic. This would've been fine if the effects were worth the mana cost of an "aura", but sadly that is not the case (e.g. would you pay six mana to cast Hero's Downfall and give flying, plus maybe a small upgrade in P/T, permanently to a creature?). You need to mutate the same creature several times for the effects to be impressive. So my own suggestion is, unless you're going to heavily invest in a deck around mutate, stick with the apex mythic predators. At best.Sinis wrote: ↑3 years agoParcelbeast is okay; I'm not sure I would call it amazing. I'd be lying if I said I didn't preorder a couple of copies.
I think the Jeskai mutate situation is pretty sad. Vadrok looks really exciting to me on paper, but most of the white mutate creatures look pretty lackluster, red has almost nothing, and that leaves a heap in blue and the r/u hybrid one, but you're investing a lot to get a free spell or two.
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Mutate definitely wants to be played with as many other mutates as possible... very few of them are standalone (I would say Parcelbeast and the mythics are basically the only ones that I would consider just jamming in almost anything). That said, I'm waiting for the prices of the mythics to drop, because they're not that exciting.
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My definition of amazing is mostly in terms of accomplishing the dumb stuff I wanna do like mutating onto a scaretiller or Courser of Kruphix.
I also kinda want to slap a parcelbeast on one of the untap creatures like Pili-Pala and set up derpy wombo combos like Parcel-Pili with a Lotus Cobra out.
Unfortunately Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest is a human and therefore can't be part of your mutate shenanigans.Dunharrow wrote: ↑3 years ago--snip--
I was just thinking about Vadrok, Apex of Hunger for my Shu Yun, The Silent Tempest.. It is essentially 4 mana give Shu Yun flying, first strike (worthless) and cast a spell from my graveyard.
--snip--
What do you think? Have you considered any mutate cards in the 99?
As stated, I like Parcelbeast even as a one-of, but that's about it without more support. Probably Sea-Dasher Octopus but that's only due to a sea monster theme.
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Yeah. Like, Dirge Bat is probably around the 8th mutate you include in your deck, because until you're getting more than one trigger out of it, it's pretty garbage-y.Maluko wrote: ↑3 years agoSecond, they made the mechanic too parasitic. This would've been fine if the effects were worth the mana cost of an "aura", but sadly that is not the case (e.g. would you pay six mana to cast Hero's Downfall and give flying, plus maybe a small upgrade in P/T, permanently to a creature?). You need to mutate the same creature several times for the effects to be impressive. So my own suggestion is, unless you're going to heavily invest in a deck around mutate, stick with the apex mythic predators. At best.
Yeah, colour me both unsurprised and unimpressed.
I think for me, the big draw for Parcelbeast is that it's kind of middling on its own, but you're right, it can do cute things if you glue it to other creatures, especially ones with untaps (Morphling? Devoted Druid? Stone-Seeder Hierophant? Horseshoe Crab?)pokken wrote: ↑3 years agoMy definition of amazing is mostly in terms of accomplishing the dumb stuff I wanna do like mutating onto a scaretiller or Courser of Kruphix.
I also kinda want to slap a parcelbeast on one of the untap creatures like Pili-Pala and set up derpy wombo combos like Parcel-Pili with a Lotus Cobra out.
If you accept that you can include it on some minimal potential, the other part of it is that it can trigger other mutate abilities for GU, which for most of the mutates is the most aggressive converted cost. That means it could make other semi-playables worth it. That said, I'm not convinced the others will be all that playable; Parcelbeast is in the Illuna and Otrimi/Brokkos colours, but neither of the latter have a when-mutate trigger (disappointing), and Illuna is in red (lol) instead of black.
I give every alternate casting ability on creatures a try in Karador with each set, so I'll be running a package of mutate in that deck to give it a go. Outside of a dedicated mutate deck (going to give either Otrimi or Brokkos a try personally), I'm tinkering with:
Nethroi, Apex of Death: Mass reanimation is good, trying it in Karador and also running it in my entirely fair, ally-tribal General Tazri, as getting a bunch of ally triggers on the stack at once is always fun.
Mindleecher: Flying and a potentially relevant p/t boost is fine enough, stealing some value makes this worth the try. Considering it as an option to give evasion and some extra gas to K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth as well.
Chittering Harvester: Not the worst p/t boost with a Fleshbag Marauder attached. Going to try it in my all-permanents Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck for further redundancy on that kind of effect and an okay body if exp counters roll up to six.
Sawtusk Demolisher: Is actually getting a shot in a handful of decks and is definitely not getting the love it deserves. Throwing 6/6 stats and trample on to a creature for 4 mana while also getting a Beast Within is absolutely killer, and the fail state of the mutate target getting removed in response of getting said 6/6 trampler is still a pretty good bad roll.
Nethroi, Apex of Death: Mass reanimation is good, trying it in Karador and also running it in my entirely fair, ally-tribal General Tazri, as getting a bunch of ally triggers on the stack at once is always fun.
Mindleecher: Flying and a potentially relevant p/t boost is fine enough, stealing some value makes this worth the try. Considering it as an option to give evasion and some extra gas to K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth as well.
Chittering Harvester: Not the worst p/t boost with a Fleshbag Marauder attached. Going to try it in my all-permanents Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck for further redundancy on that kind of effect and an okay body if exp counters roll up to six.
Sawtusk Demolisher: Is actually getting a shot in a handful of decks and is definitely not getting the love it deserves. Throwing 6/6 stats and trample on to a creature for 4 mana while also getting a Beast Within is absolutely killer, and the fail state of the mutate target getting removed in response of getting said 6/6 trampler is still a pretty good bad roll.
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In general I'm not loving them. Most of them are either below-rate creatures OR below-rate auras, and it's hard to imagine utilizing them outside of using one as a Commander for some spicy Voltron nonsense, or going "all in" on them. For most of them, I am looking at them like - would I play Galvanic Arc in EDH? Probably no. What if it also made the target base power 3/3 if I wanted? Interesting, but probably still no. What if it was a split card and could also be cast as a Lightning Hounds? Yeah, probably still no - but hey, it's at least an argument.
I was originally going to look at them all, piece by piece, but that's a lot of me saying "this is limited chaff and is unplayable in EDH". Along the way I did have some thoughts though.
- Parcelbeast is the only one I can see running "often", or something approximating often. It's a slow but solid engine on its lonesome, and is interesting alongside untappers and Experiment Kraj. It's got STEEP competition, but is worth a look.
- Sea-Dasher Octopus, Cubwarden, and Lore Drakkis are niche but I think I can envision a specific theme or strategy I'd run them in. I could see Octopus in a Flash and/or Sea Monster deck. I intend to test Cubwarden in Cat Tribal. Lore Drakkis is a better rate than Call to Mind as long as I have a body out and has the "split card" feature of being a Hurloon Minotaur - it probably misses the cut in most of my URx spell-heavy decks but isn't that far off.
- Vulpikeet, Souvenir Snatcher, Archipelagore, Pouncing Shoreshark, Dirge Bat, Cloudpiercer, Sawtusk Demolisher, all the Apexs, and Boneyard Lurker are probably unplayable, but are fringe enough that I can envision a future commander or very specific casual deck wanting them. All the Apexs are interesting, splashy, and fun although I suspect more fun in the Command Zone than the 99. In general these are the first ones I'd want if I were all in on Mutate.dec.
The rest are limited draft chaff and I'd only run them if I were all-in on Mutate, and probably not even then.
I was originally going to look at them all, piece by piece, but that's a lot of me saying "this is limited chaff and is unplayable in EDH". Along the way I did have some thoughts though.
- Parcelbeast is the only one I can see running "often", or something approximating often. It's a slow but solid engine on its lonesome, and is interesting alongside untappers and Experiment Kraj. It's got STEEP competition, but is worth a look.
- Sea-Dasher Octopus, Cubwarden, and Lore Drakkis are niche but I think I can envision a specific theme or strategy I'd run them in. I could see Octopus in a Flash and/or Sea Monster deck. I intend to test Cubwarden in Cat Tribal. Lore Drakkis is a better rate than Call to Mind as long as I have a body out and has the "split card" feature of being a Hurloon Minotaur - it probably misses the cut in most of my URx spell-heavy decks but isn't that far off.
- Vulpikeet, Souvenir Snatcher, Archipelagore, Pouncing Shoreshark, Dirge Bat, Cloudpiercer, Sawtusk Demolisher, all the Apexs, and Boneyard Lurker are probably unplayable, but are fringe enough that I can envision a future commander or very specific casual deck wanting them. All the Apexs are interesting, splashy, and fun although I suspect more fun in the Command Zone than the 99. In general these are the first ones I'd want if I were all in on Mutate.dec.
The rest are limited draft chaff and I'd only run them if I were all-in on Mutate, and probably not even then.
I thought this too, but peskily Sawtusk says "noncreature" . It's still a fine casual card, but it is a lot closer to throwing that boost onto a creature while getting 1/3 of a Terastodon trigger, or a Acidic Slime trigger that also gives them a beast.FenrirRex wrote: ↑3 years ago
Sawtusk Demolisher: Is actually getting a shot in a handful of decks and is definitely not getting the love it deserves. Throwing 6/6 stats and trample on to a creature for 4 mana while also getting a Beast Within is absolutely killer, and the fail state of the mutate target getting removed in response of getting said 6/6 trampler is still a pretty good bad roll.
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I intend to try Sawtusk Demolisher and Gemrazer in Gargos, Vicious Watcher so that I can overlap my creature and non-creature removal. As a side effect, there are beneficial side effects with mutate on hydras because a significant number are 0/0 base.
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Lol woopsieOutcryqq wrote: ↑3 years agoUnfortunately Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest is a human and therefore can't be part of your mutate shenanigans.Dunharrow wrote: ↑3 years ago--snip--
I was just thinking about Vadrok, Apex of Hunger for my Shu Yun, The Silent Tempest.. It is essentially 4 mana give Shu Yun flying, first strike (worthless) and cast a spell from my graveyard.
--snip--
What do you think? Have you considered any mutate cards in the 99?
As stated, I like Parcelbeast even as a one-of, but that's about it without more support. Probably Sea-Dasher Octopus but that's only due to a sea monster theme.
Most of the creatures in Shu Yun are human... so that won't be working!
I like the comments though. There do seem to be a 3-4 options that are worth it even as a 1-time effect.
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I feel like Auspicious Starrix is flying under the radar here a little. 6/6 stats is a big jump for a lot of things, and there's a lot of upside to the card, with the base case being "put a land into play" and the potential to just dump something expensive into play with a little setup. You probably want another piece of synergy here, whether it's a general that likes the pump, other mutate cards, or top of the library manipulation, but with that it seems solidly playable.
Outside of that, other assessments seem solid. Most of the Apex's are at least playable as a solo mutator (Brokkos being perhaps the exception), with Nethroi and Illuna as the two strongest I think. The three created for the commander deck are also solidly playable, though they're similar to Starrix in that you want some additional synergy. Sea-Dasher Octopus and Parcelbeast are pretty good as well, while the rest definitely want additional mutators.
Outside of that, other assessments seem solid. Most of the Apex's are at least playable as a solo mutator (Brokkos being perhaps the exception), with Nethroi and Illuna as the two strongest I think. The three created for the commander deck are also solidly playable, though they're similar to Starrix in that you want some additional synergy. Sea-Dasher Octopus and Parcelbeast are pretty good as well, while the rest definitely want additional mutators.
Between Karador and Animar, I'd personally say Mutate in the 99 wouldn't be that bad, in fact, quite fun and appealing. Karador can mutate from the graveyard and has death-trigger weenies like Viridian Emissary that make the removal options less satisfying. Animar reduces mutate costs and presents so many creatures that it naturally leans towards asking for board wipes then single-target removal anyway.
That being said, those are just favorable curbs at best and the disadvantages of mutate still stand. I'm still unlikely to stack mutations beyond the first and maybe second because it escalates to the point the curbs no longer help. A quick rundown on the Mutate cards.
Cubwarden - Considerable, 2 free bodies is nice and there's little incentive to stop the mutation for two weenies I'm likely going to sacrifice anyway.
Huntmaster Liger - I don't favor X-mutation triggers and this one is honestly a pretty poor buff.
Majestic Auricorn - Classic lifegain meh.
Vulpikeet - Feels too tiny to matter.
Archipelagore - X-mutation risk and while grafting the largest base body on Animar might be nice, it isn't any priority, I'd rather play other bombs.
Dreamtail Heron - 1-mana make Animar base 3/4 flying that replaces itself on the other hand sounds like a better deal.
Pouncing Shoreshark - Flash bounce is nice that grants a 4/3 body is not bad, but I feel like it'll just drop out due to competition, especially since it can't bounce my own things (always an consideration in Animar).
Sea-Dasher Octopus - 2/2 is still bigger than 1/1, it drops faster than Heron and could draw more cards, with flash pretty much guaranteeing the first.
Cavern Whisperer - Feels a bit meh, but might be one of those that people overlook until the second mutation hits.
Chittering Harvester - Same as above.
Dirge Bat - Feels overcosted considering the risks we have to go through, it feels safer just running good ol' removal and regular creatures.
Insatiable Hemophage - X-mutation risk.
Cloudpiercer - Honestly I'd just play the Heron in Animar.
Everquill Phoenix - Too many hoops for too little reward for a deck like Animar.
Porcuparrot X-mutation risk.
Auspicious Starrix - Probably the best of the X-mutation risks, but ultimately I run Animar (and I wanna cast things), so it's meh. Better In Karador, but I'm still hesitant considering its cost.
Gemrazer - People are going to see the Aura Shards in this (and respond accordingly), but even as a flop it's good value, just don't presume it to succeed all the time, its the redundancy removal, not the main one. Likely Karador over Animar due to colored cost.
Glowstone Recluse - Bigger Vulpikeet and it's in Animar colors, but at the same time it can feel redundant when Animar scales nicely already. Might play for fun but won't be surprised if it just dies to the competition.
Migratory Greathorn - Heron, but ramp... and sometimes ramp is better even in a deck like Animar.
Boneyard Lurker - Might be one of those under-the-radar mutates, depending on the situation.
Lore Drakkis - Let's just say I play Animar.
Necropanther - Boneyard Lurker's partner-in-crime.
Parcelbeast - Actually I'd throw this into Horde of Notions land.dec, it's like a redundancy copy of Thrasios that can be brought back more than it is a mutate card, really, being on-tribal helps a lot there.
Regal Leosaur - Meh Buff. Mutate no synergy with Alesha.
Trumpeting Gnarr - That's an additional body for Animar, but I'd rather Heron honestly.
Brokkos, Apex of Forever - Let's just say I feel like it does nothing in Horde of Notions. Redundancy in the bad way.
Vadrok, Apex of Thunder - Ability is actually nice in Horde because of ramp spells... but unlike Karador, Horde doesn't allow mutate from graveyard, so it becomes a mediocre one-use there.
Snapdax, Apex of the Hunt - It's just meh and has no particular synergy for me anywhere.
Illuna, Apex of Wishes - Let's just say it's inferior Maelstrom Wanderer in Animar in pretty much most ways.
Nethroi, Apex of Death - The only Apex I'm considering (for Karador) and not really for its power because the risks considering its costs are humongous, but I'm a sucker for "big" splashy reanimation techniques (Debtors' Knell being one of my pet cards of the format). Karador is probably the only deck I would consider enough mutate cards to risk stacking the big plays for this anyway (Animar is mostly in it for the draws).
Yeah, so in short probably only Karador has the potential for a mutate "branch" here (I wouldn't even call it a subtheme, it's more functional than anything). Animar is in it pretty much for card draws alongside getting a buffer base P/T only. Horde gets only Parcelbeast more for its synergies than its mutate-cost (even if it's cheap).
That being said, those are just favorable curbs at best and the disadvantages of mutate still stand. I'm still unlikely to stack mutations beyond the first and maybe second because it escalates to the point the curbs no longer help. A quick rundown on the Mutate cards.
Cubwarden - Considerable, 2 free bodies is nice and there's little incentive to stop the mutation for two weenies I'm likely going to sacrifice anyway.
Huntmaster Liger - I don't favor X-mutation triggers and this one is honestly a pretty poor buff.
Majestic Auricorn - Classic lifegain meh.
Vulpikeet - Feels too tiny to matter.
Archipelagore - X-mutation risk and while grafting the largest base body on Animar might be nice, it isn't any priority, I'd rather play other bombs.
Dreamtail Heron - 1-mana make Animar base 3/4 flying that replaces itself on the other hand sounds like a better deal.
Pouncing Shoreshark - Flash bounce is nice that grants a 4/3 body is not bad, but I feel like it'll just drop out due to competition, especially since it can't bounce my own things (always an consideration in Animar).
Sea-Dasher Octopus - 2/2 is still bigger than 1/1, it drops faster than Heron and could draw more cards, with flash pretty much guaranteeing the first.
Cavern Whisperer - Feels a bit meh, but might be one of those that people overlook until the second mutation hits.
Chittering Harvester - Same as above.
Dirge Bat - Feels overcosted considering the risks we have to go through, it feels safer just running good ol' removal and regular creatures.
Insatiable Hemophage - X-mutation risk.
Cloudpiercer - Honestly I'd just play the Heron in Animar.
Everquill Phoenix - Too many hoops for too little reward for a deck like Animar.
Porcuparrot X-mutation risk.
Auspicious Starrix - Probably the best of the X-mutation risks, but ultimately I run Animar (and I wanna cast things), so it's meh. Better In Karador, but I'm still hesitant considering its cost.
Gemrazer - People are going to see the Aura Shards in this (and respond accordingly), but even as a flop it's good value, just don't presume it to succeed all the time, its the redundancy removal, not the main one. Likely Karador over Animar due to colored cost.
Glowstone Recluse - Bigger Vulpikeet and it's in Animar colors, but at the same time it can feel redundant when Animar scales nicely already. Might play for fun but won't be surprised if it just dies to the competition.
Migratory Greathorn - Heron, but ramp... and sometimes ramp is better even in a deck like Animar.
Boneyard Lurker - Might be one of those under-the-radar mutates, depending on the situation.
Lore Drakkis - Let's just say I play Animar.
Necropanther - Boneyard Lurker's partner-in-crime.
Parcelbeast - Actually I'd throw this into Horde of Notions land.dec, it's like a redundancy copy of Thrasios that can be brought back more than it is a mutate card, really, being on-tribal helps a lot there.
Regal Leosaur - Meh Buff. Mutate no synergy with Alesha.
Trumpeting Gnarr - That's an additional body for Animar, but I'd rather Heron honestly.
Brokkos, Apex of Forever - Let's just say I feel like it does nothing in Horde of Notions. Redundancy in the bad way.
Vadrok, Apex of Thunder - Ability is actually nice in Horde because of ramp spells... but unlike Karador, Horde doesn't allow mutate from graveyard, so it becomes a mediocre one-use there.
Snapdax, Apex of the Hunt - It's just meh and has no particular synergy for me anywhere.
Illuna, Apex of Wishes - Let's just say it's inferior Maelstrom Wanderer in Animar in pretty much most ways.
Nethroi, Apex of Death - The only Apex I'm considering (for Karador) and not really for its power because the risks considering its costs are humongous, but I'm a sucker for "big" splashy reanimation techniques (Debtors' Knell being one of my pet cards of the format). Karador is probably the only deck I would consider enough mutate cards to risk stacking the big plays for this anyway (Animar is mostly in it for the draws).
Yeah, so in short probably only Karador has the potential for a mutate "branch" here (I wouldn't even call it a subtheme, it's more functional than anything). Animar is in it pretty much for card draws alongside getting a buffer base P/T only. Horde gets only Parcelbeast more for its synergies than its mutate-cost (even if it's cheap).
Mono green mutates seem broken in a deck that can repeatedly abuse them or have thematic restrictions (nikya of the old ways likes the additional spell abilities). In particular, I am going to try gemrazer, migratory greathorn, and sawtusk demolisher in my yeva build. As I understand it, when you bounce the mutated creature, all of them return to your hand, so it is more cost effective when I start the temur sabertooth engine. Yeva handles the flash part.