Ban List Update - Flash Banned

MrMystery314
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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

I don't see any casuals doing anything beyond being keyboard warriors

While correct, some of that is because they generally tend to be less active online in places like Reddit (I've personally run into the most militant casual players on Untap while seeing extremely few militant competitive players; the closest to the latter I've seen are simply extremely insistent commanders like Atraxa and Golos are just as competitive as standard cEDH decks and refuse to listen to contrary opinions, which while weird probably isn't a huge issue.), even if sometimes active at the LGS level or in other places. The occasional stories on Reddit coming from infrequent contributors to MTG subreddits who simply went to the first place they could think of indicate there is a not insignificant group of players with hostile views toward what would even be judged by many here as fair-game casual play, even if they largely keep to themselves. We just don't hear about them as much because they keep their complaints to themselves or heckling players who stumble across them. The Reddit thread I linked has many stories of MTGO EDH, which apparently is quite toxic, although I haven't played on MTGO myself. Perhaps they are the trolls doing their things in their troll cave, occasionally eating passersby who stumble into their dens. Their issues are general toxicity rather than anything wrong with EDH specifically, as the same phenomenon can be encountered with other formats too. "Militant casual" players that are a bit too outspoken or deviant in their views are also more likely to err on the side of the RC, as often the issue is that their applications of Rule 0 create an unfun environment for anyone who happens to think differently; obviously the RC isn't responsible for these people, but many of them view players playing in what they see as a competitive or unfun way with the same animus the annoying cEDH people view the RC. It's not hard to find toxic MTG players.
I also find them being called out at the same time. I haven't been finding that to be the same case with the cEDH extreme lately.
Exactly. I don't think the compass needle has shifted toward those infrequent subjects of Reddit venting (or on here too when we complain about playing online) because the major issue has been the dynamic between cEDH and "normal" EDH. Perhaps that scale should have a new term added, something like hEDH for hyper-casual EDH, characterized not only by the level of play but by the aggressive avoidance of "unfun" elements to the extent that they create toxicity? These are the sorts that play on MTGO and quit games seemingly arbitrarily whenever their idea of fun is violated, or that aggressively house-rule to the point that outsiders feel excluded. Just because this group is seemingly more silent and hence not the target of such furious debate doesn't mean that they are insignificant; I imagine they form a good chunk of the silent majority that's often described when discussing the impact of bans and rules.

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Airi
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Post by Airi » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
Yeah, but we're not creating driveby sock puppets, calling for the RC's dissolution, or issuing death threats.

People are allowed to complain, but I don't see any casuals doing anything beyond being keyboard warriors, myself included.
Some of the worst people Cryogen and I banned from EDH during our tenures were casual players, who in some cases said some truly horrific things about the competitive playerbase. Some who made multiple accounts to repeatedly harass the same people. Their vitriol is just often directed in a different direction than the RC (the mods, prominent cEDH players, etc.) It happens, and it'll happen to any subset of people on the internet, because awful people like to hid behind their anonymity regardless of their opinions. There's a group of people who sit in my camp of "neither side"-ers who are just as vitriolic when rules issues come up on the main EDH reddit.

Not seeing it is not the same as it not happening, nor is it a good reason to disavow the RC's attempts to bridge the gaps between the communities, given that Sheldon has explicitly stated in the announcements, reddit threads, and other comments, his reasoning behind why they chose this card to compromise on, philosophy-wise.

Edit: I want to make it really clear here, that I'm not defending people being awful to the RC from the cEDH side, or them being awful to anyone else. Just that, while MTGN has been exceptionally good when it comes to our community behaving respectably, I've had to directly deal with cleaning up those kinds of vitriolic comments from just about every opinion on the spectrum when it comes to MTG at some point.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Airi wrote:
4 years ago
Some of the worst people Cryogen and I banned from EDH during our tenures were casual players, who in some cases said some truly horrific things about the competitive playerbase. Some who made multiple accounts to repeatedly harass the same people. Their vitriol is just often directed in a different direction than the RC (the mods, prominent cEDH players, etc.) It happens, and it'll happen to any subset of people on the internet, because awful people like to hid behind their anonymity regardless of their opinions. There's a group of people who sit in my camp of "neither side"-ers who are just as vitriolic when rules issues come up on the main EDH reddit.
Fair point, though, I wonder if the volume then has to do with the size of the respective demographics.

I'm saying that, for a group that is probably not even 2.5% of the EDH playerbase, cEDH rabblerousers manage to produce a very disproportionate amount of malignant noise, and I think that is likely beyond dispute.

If it were proportional, we would see 'extreme casuals' producing at least ten times the volume of vitriol, yet I doubt that's the case unless you and cryogen literally never sleep.
Airi wrote:
4 years ago
Not seeing it is not the same as it not happening, nor is it a good reason to disavow the RC's attempts to bridge the gaps between the communities, given that Sheldon has explicitly stated in the announcements, reddit threads, and other comments, his reasoning behind why they chose this card to compromise on, philosophy-wise.
I don't disavow the RCs attempts to bridge the gaps. That would be the cEDH crowd who kept an embarrassing "RC should step down" post at the top of their subreddit for most of the day they won their major victory and was only removed by moderators later in the afternoon.

Would that the cEDH community leaders be as capable of deplatforming their radicals as effectively and quickly as you and cryogen.

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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

2.5% of the EDH player base at large is a different statistic than the percentage that engage in online discussions such as these. I also have no way personally of estimating the size of the militant casual contingent, as while 25% or more easily could play at that general power level, I doubt all of them feel so strongly as to prowl MTGO and Untap looking to create bad feelings. Perhaps there's some massive conglomerate out there I'm unaware of, but I don't think the militant casual contingent is that massive at all. Just as not all cEDH players write tirades and say Sheldon should retire, not all casual players write tirades and call cEDH players griefers actively trying to ruin fun for everyone else.
Would that the cEDH community leaders be as capable of deplatforming their radicals as effectively and quickly as you and cryogen.
I think the most likely outcome of actively suppressing that view on the cEDH subreddit is that the more militant people accuse the moderators of being co-conspirators and go form their own toxic cesspool that ends up being even more vitriolic. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as I would imagine a greater percentage of moderate people is a good thing, but I imagine it would leave a bad taste in the mouths of many. I'd certainly wonder what else is being censored and if I'm being goaded or manipulated by what's allowed to remain. Internet moderation is hard, especially somewhere like Reddit. The cEDH moderators are not omnipresent, and if a post gains momentum before they can get to it, they can't necessarily make the decision immediately without risking infighting. I imagine in that case a few of the moderators talked together weighing whether such free speech should be allowed and they came to a consensus you agree with. Don't fault them for not taking action quickly enough unless you think their inaction was intended to stoke the flames of anarchy.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

MrMystery314 wrote:
4 years ago
Don't fault them for not taking action quickly enough unless you think their inaction was intended to stoke the flames of anarchy.
They need to log in more than once a day in the afternoon for 15 minutes if they're going to moderate. Flash-ban day was exactly the day they should have been on their toes.

I get it, it's a tough job. But it's one they signed up for.

Edit: right, right, be kind
Last edited by Sinis 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Airi
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Post by Airi » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
Would that the cEDH community leaders be as capable of deplatforming their radicals as effectively and quickly as you and cryogen.
I will say, that it is much harder to remove someone's presence from reddit, if they are determined to persist, than it is to do so from a forum. I do not envy the reddit moderators (for any of the EDH subs) their jobs, but to the earlier point, yes. There were some days with certain announcements/articles/community happenings where we just lagged behind with our ability to keep up with things, even at the height of there being 6(?) of us. And some users we did not successfully stop. Mod work can burn people out more quickly than you can imagine, and it's definitely not an understatement to say that Reddit mods have a far higher volume to shift through.

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

@Airi I get it. I've moderated ~30k person subreddits. I don't do it anymore. I'm even sympathetic that some users will break through.

That doesn't mean they can leave an egregious post up for more than half of a day on which they should have been on high alert. It's not like it was nested or hidden; it was at the top of the default view.

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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

I know people complain about the magicTCG mods as being a bit too trigger-happy to delete things, apparently, but I'm curious what the moderation of the main EDH subreddit is like. It's a lot more heavily-trafficked than the cEDH subreddit, while attracting many of the same people and many more. Part of the spiciness of that subreddit is that it samples more heavily from all ends of the spectrum, and from what I can tell, people in the middle tend to support cEDH perspectives more than hyper-casual perspectives, despite identifying as somewhere in between. I'd love to know more about the demographics there, especially if some of our discussion is turning toward unpacking that idea of "casual EDH" and what that really means, just as we've spent a long while talking about the complexities inherent in "competitive EDH". Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie had an excellent TED talk a while back on "the danger of a single story": . I highly recommend it, and it may provide some interesting context about preconceptions and generalization.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

What Airi and I have struggled with the most here (and with bobthefunny, ISBPathfinder, Wildfire393, and all the amazing mods I was fortunate enough to work with on MTGS) has been to achieve that balance of allowing free speech while simultaneously clamping down on asshats and vitriol.

I won't pretend to know anything about the moderation on Reddit or the tools they have at their disposal, but it is a daunting job for anyone to take on. All I'll say is I agree that if they are serious about wanting to keep the peace then they should be on their toes on those high traffic days of ban list announcements.
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Post by onering » 4 years ago

MrMystery, there is a name for hypercasual extremists already: scrubs. They pretty much can't form a cohesive group because something will always piss them off and they'll eat themselves. cEDH extremists have a much easier time staying cohesive, and thus amplifying their voice, because they are all in agreement that if it's legal it's allowed. cEDH is simply easier to define than hyper casual, which allows a community to easily form, and the most extreme elements in that community to find eachother and create an echo chamber. The most extreme hyper casuals can't agree on anything. When an extreme cEDH player argues in favor of something ridiculous, like regulating edh for tournament play at the expense of casual, it Sparks a serious conversation about format philosophy and prioritization of needs and preferences in a disparate group. When an extreme casual suggests something ridiculous like all signets should be banned or *insert commander that wrecks them at their lgs* should be banned they get laughed at and made fun of.

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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

cEDH extremists have a much easier time staying cohesive, and thus amplifying their voice, because they are all in agreement that if it's legal it's allowed.
The people (who I disagree with) who rule O'd Flash Hulk until it could be dealt with would disagree, but aside from those rare exceptions, that's certainly true. I assume most people who identify as play cEDH, besides the ones who only know the c stands for competitive and that their Golos Lands deck is "competitive" because it wins against their playgroup, would agree with that principle. Of course, that generally extends to in-game ideas only: you'd be hard-pressed to find a group that smiled upon people leaving in the middle of games because they didn't get their way, even if mid-game concessions aren't banned. Still, I agree that militant cEDH players have an easier time mobilizing because their positions align more closely with their regular equivalents compared to the opposite.
most extreme elements in that community to find eachother and create an echo chamber
It sounds like this happens already with scrubs (I try my hardest to avoid the term, which is why I did not use it previously; I find it too disparaging and not descriptive enough), except those groups aren't found on Reddit as far as I know. There could easily be some Discord server or subreddit out there that largely caters to that demographic that we just don't know about; the cEDH crowd has done a better job of marketing their community, and I'd personally much rather have them be a prominent voice than the "ban counterspells!" crowd.
like regulating edh for tournament play at the expense of casual
I agree this is a poor proposition and one I'd downvote if I encountered it on Reddit unless it was particularly well-written, but I've seen very few people personally that argue for regulating EDH at the expense of casual play for competitive play in mind, but rather to find some ideal regulations that let casual play flow unimpeded while minimizing the amount of additional baggage needed at the competitive level. As has been stated previously before, the majority of cEDH players play casually too, and the perfect system is one that works for both. As of the time of this post, hopefully we're at that point. I think a better example of an extreme point of view is "abolish the RC," although that one isn't limited just to cEDH players but really any players at any level who feel particularly mad about whatever.
serious conversation about format philosophy and prioritization of needs and preferences in a disparate group
I'd say this happens because the "hot takes" suggested, like "work toward a rules system that lets both casual and competitive play prosper without one of those groups needing to take additional measures," are feasible and not inherently objectionable; that proposal is something that could be discussed in depth, whether it's necessary and whether it's even possible. Positions like "abolish the RC" are harder to justify; the only way I can think to argue that from a casual perspective is if you're one of the militants with a pet peeve that you don't think the RC is dealing with appropriately, which could be something like cEDH or simply a playstyle like stax. And similarly, it's far harder to argue "Ban Nekusar" than "Ban Flash". That's not to say that the militant casual crowd can't occasionally raise good points, but that they tend to do so with less frequency than the militant cEDH crowd.

With many of these discussions I've wondered how EDH would have ended up had it been created originally as an experiment in making a competitively balanced multiplayer format, which then trickled down to casual play. I think in that case it would be easier to argue for casual-only bans of competitively irrelevant cards, but then again, would that be bowing down to the casual players' wins? In some parallel universe these philosophy arguments would be inverted, yes, but I don't think it would end up being as simple as that. A simpler question would be if the current RC were replaced with some theoretical cEDH RC, and the current RC being relegated to an advisory position; if anything, I see that resulting in even more anarchy competitively as players felt emboldened to lobby for their hot takes, with casual play remaining relatively the same; why not ban irrelevant cards competitively? Those are situations for another thread.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
Or maybe people just like coming here because they get a different experience that they can't on Twitter or Reddit. Even things as simple as having the ability to personalize their profile, or hold a linear conversation without the added difficulty of downvotes or timeline algorithms interfering, or relying on external sites for decklist support are things you don't get with Twitter or Reddit.
This is definitely a side conversation, but I think reddit and twitter are mostly designed for the benefit of the reader, and less the benefit of the writer. Trying to keep a conversation going is really difficult compared to a forum, but it does a good job of generating and sorting content for when you want to kill time on your phone.

Plus, for twitter especially, it's very personality focused. Celebrities can get tons of attention on those platforms. On a forum, maybe, but without followers and upvotes everyone's on sort of an even playing field. So celebs prefer those platforms and thus people who care about celebs follow them there.

My 2 cents. I think there's room for both, and I do use reddit occasionally, but I sure don't go to reddit (or twitter, lol) when I want to really dig deep on a new deck idea.
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Post by Dragoon » 4 years ago

MrMystery314 wrote:
4 years ago
With many of these discussions I've wondered how EDH would have ended up had it been created originally as an experiment in making a competitively balanced multiplayer format, which then trickled down to casual play.
My main concern with EDH tournaments would be how to deal with collusion. I feel like multiplayer tournaments in magic are bound to fail because of that. If I sit down at a table and after chatting with the other two players, we decide to take you down first, you can't really do anything about it. Now, it's true that cEDH seems very heavily combo-oriented so maybe it's not really possible to take one player down specifically?

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

If you really wanted to you could totally collude in all-combo cEDH. Just don't answer each others' threats, only the targeted player.

The problem with colluding to take someone down together is that, in the process of that, one of the two colluders are going to start to get the advantage in power. And at a certain point, it's going to be a lot more beneficial for the colluder who's falling behind to switch sides and ally with the enemy to work against the other player, rather than stay the course. Even if they manage to stay at the exact same level of power while they work together, whichever player decides to take the initiative and start planning to kill their ally will have a potentially big advantage.

That said, I've had games where my opponents decided to work against me anyway, even when I was clearly not a threat. One person got ahead, I tried to convince the other person to switch sides or he would lose, but he didn't care because he really wanted to kill me :P I didn't enjoy that game very much. But in competitive play, one would hope that players would be more focused on winning and wouldn't make choices that reduced their changes of victory just to help somebody else.

Of course, that's only true in a winner-takes-all system. Once second place gets anything, all bets are off.
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Post by Dragoon » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Of course, that's only true in a winner-takes-all system. Once second place gets anything, all bets are off.
That's exactly the system I was considering. I've never seen winner-takes-all in those EDH tournaments yet. My store had those kind of problems at first and since then, it's random prizing for everyone.

EDIT: And even if the winner takes it all, if the prize can be shared (some boosters for example), then collusion is still possible.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

MrMystery314 wrote:
4 years ago
cEDH extremists have a much easier time staying cohesive, and thus amplifying their voice, because they are all in agreement that if it's legal it's allowed.
The people (who I disagree with) who rule O'd Flash Hulk until it could be dealt with would disagree, but aside from those rare exceptions, that's certainly true. I assume most people who identify as play cEDH, besides the ones who only know the c stands for competitive and that their Golos Lands deck is "competitive" because it wins against their playgroup, would agree with that principle. Of course, that generally extends to in-game ideas only: you'd be hard-pressed to find a group that smiled upon people leaving in the middle of games because they didn't get their way, even if mid-game concessions aren't banned. Still, I agree that militant cEDH players have an easier time mobilizing because their positions align more closely with their regular equivalents compared to the opposite.
most extreme elements in that community to find eachother and create an echo chamber
It sounds like this happens already with scrubs (I try my hardest to avoid the term, which is why I did not use it previously; I find it too disparaging and not descriptive enough), except those groups aren't found on Reddit as far as I know. There could easily be some Discord server or subreddit out there that largely caters to that demographic that we just don't know about; the cEDH crowd has done a better job of marketing their community, and I'd personally much rather have them be a prominent voice than the "ban counterspells!" crowd.
like regulating edh for tournament play at the expense of casual
I agree this is a poor proposition and one I'd downvote if I encountered it on Reddit unless it was particularly well-written, but I've seen very few people personally that argue for regulating EDH at the expense of casual play for competitive play in mind, but rather to find some ideal regulations that let casual play flow unimpeded while minimizing the amount of additional baggage needed at the competitive level. As has been stated previously before, the majority of cEDH players play casually too, and the perfect system is one that works for both. As of the time of this post, hopefully we're at that point. I think a better example of an extreme point of view is "abolish the RC," although that one isn't limited just to cEDH players but really any players at any level who feel particularly mad about whatever.
serious conversation about format philosophy and prioritization of needs and preferences in a disparate group
I'd say this happens because the "hot takes" suggested, like "work toward a rules system that lets both casual and competitive play prosper without one of those groups needing to take additional measures," are feasible and not inherently objectionable; that proposal is something that could be discussed in depth, whether it's necessary and whether it's even possible. Positions like "abolish the RC" are harder to justify; the only way I can think to argue that from a casual perspective is if you're one of the militants with a pet peeve that you don't think the RC is dealing with appropriately, which could be something like cEDH or simply a playstyle like stax. And similarly, it's far harder to argue "Ban Nekusar" than "Ban Flash". That's not to say that the militant casual crowd can't occasionally raise good points, but that they tend to do so with less frequency than the militant cEDH crowd.

With many of these discussions I've wondered how EDH would have ended up had it been created originally as an experiment in making a competitively balanced multiplayer format, which then trickled down to casual play. I think in that case it would be easier to argue for casual-only bans of competitively irrelevant cards, but then again, would that be bowing down to the casual players' wins? In some parallel universe these philosophy arguments would be inverted, yes, but I don't think it would end up being as simple as that. A simpler question would be if the current RC were replaced with some theoretical cEDH RC, and the current RC being relegated to an advisory position; if anything, I see that resulting in even more anarchy competitively as players felt emboldened to lobby for their hot takes, with casual play remaining relatively the same; why not ban irrelevant cards competitively? Those are situations for another thread.

You seem to have missed that I was talking about cEDH extremists, not cEDH players generally. Hence why I repeatedly said extremists.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
Myllior wrote:
4 years ago
Wow it finally happened. I mean, after the last ban announcement it seemed apparent that this announcement would be do-or-die for Flash, but no matter how likely it may or may not have seemed, it's still something altogether different to see it happen. A lot of claims have been made about what will or won't happen following a Flash ban, so it'll be interesting to see how things develop.

Particularly, I'll be interested to see how the cEDH metagame evolves in response to this. A claim I've read a few times is that the duality of Flash decks with Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact decks pushes Stax decks out of the format, so I'm most interested in seeing how they develop within the metagame as a result of this.

I think we're in for some interesting times; I'm looking forward to it.
Agreed. I personally was in favor of rebanning Protean Hulk instead, but the cEDH players I spoke with believed Flash was more of a problem overall. So I guess we'll see what happens to their metagame as a result.
I think Hulk has more potential fair play of the two cards. I generally play 75% non combo magic and I would consider hulk in a sac based deck but its hard to ever come up with ways that flash is great with a non combo focus. Sure you could just get that 6+ mana ETB in for 2 at instant speed but really, when is the last time you saw someone play that without a way for it to be better than that in their deck?
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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

MrMystery314 wrote:
4 years ago
I highly recommend it, and it may provide some interesting context about preconceptions and generalization.
I watched this a couple of days ago, and sat on it. I agree in principle; I'm not someone who will (generally) attribute particular behaviours to a particular demographic.

I'll be honest, the 'single story' of cEDH players for me has been "the lot of you are arrogant, anti-RC, look-down-your-nose-at-us-filthy-casuals with the perennial opinion that casuals are just cEDH players but incapable of properly participating either due to weak finances or weak intelligence."

This is clearly not universal. There are very nice regulars here. But, that's like, a handful of people, and IME the tiny, tiny minority of cEDH posters are helpful or even friendly.

Fine, okay, let's accept that we're swallowing a 'single story' about cEDH players and that we should go looking for posters/communities that aren't toxic and condescending if we're interested in cEDH material. Where are they? It's clearly not reddit, twitter, Facebook or the vast majority of forum users. Where is this island of decent people? And, given that there are legions of posters giving them a bad name, why aren't they doing anything to protect their image?

None of this is to imply that there isn't some community of cEDH posters at large who are totes decent people. I just don't know where to find them in significant numbers.

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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

Personally for me, as long as the content is there I'm perfectly fine with ignoring the occasional nastiness that comes up. All the competitive MTG subreddits have good content at times, even if occasionally things devolve into anti-WoTC hysteria or endless flame wars. I'd be hard-pressed to find a MTG discussion forum where things are actually harmonious all the time, and no, here doesn't count (threads have too much of a tendency to spiral into pages upon pages of paragraph-length arguments). Especially for competitive discussion, or even if I'm just looking for a sweet deck list and an explanation, it's honestly just efficient to zero in on the important parts, maybe read through the comments for a quick chuckle, and be done. So as to actually answer your question, I've found that the cEDH Reddit Discord server is generally a bit more peaceful simply because rabble-rousers tend to self-select and go elsewhere because they don't get sweet karma for their hot takes, and the moderation is a bit more active (an invite link for reference: https://discord.gg/ytqcXu). While certainly discussions at times may not agree with things here philosophically, and obviously lean heavily in the competitive direction, that does not make them inherently uncivil, and I personally think their discussions on average are more "helpful" than the death spirals here. Still, that avoids the point: I personally think quality of content should supersede "toxicity" or "friendliness" as concerns for competitive MTG material for any format, or even MTG material in general. If you're looking for advice on a specific deck, there is a plethora of individual cEDH deck Discord servers where everyone's working together on one task and nobody has the time to bash Sheldon or MaRo or that annoying player on MTGO that conceded when they played Mana Drain. You go there, you get results. The greater task at hand, whether that's "how can I make this deck on a budget?" or "My metagame consists of Gitrog, Blood Pod, First Sliver FC, and Kenrith Consultation. How can I adjust my Urza deck to compensate?", should take precedent.

I'll take that "Where are they?" question and say that the answer is "you won't find that anywhere." If there is an utopia of "totes decent" MTG players online where the conversation isn't tailored to some hyper-specific purpose, I certainly would love to meet them. Perhaps I am an ostrich sticking my head in the sand who has lost faith too easily. But I think this conversation really goes beyond cEDH to the online MTG community as a whole.

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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
Myllior wrote:
4 years ago
Wow it finally happened. I mean, after the last ban announcement it seemed apparent that this announcement would be do-or-die for Flash, but no matter how likely it may or may not have seemed, it's still something altogether different to see it happen. A lot of claims have been made about what will or won't happen following a Flash ban, so it'll be interesting to see how things develop.

Particularly, I'll be interested to see how the cEDH metagame evolves in response to this. A claim I've read a few times is that the duality of Flash decks with Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact decks pushes Stax decks out of the format, so I'm most interested in seeing how they develop within the metagame as a result of this.

I think we're in for some interesting times; I'm looking forward to it.
Agreed. I personally was in favor of rebanning Protean Hulk instead, but the cEDH players I spoke with believed Flash was more of a problem overall. So I guess we'll see what happens to their metagame as a result.
I think Hulk has more potential fair play of the two cards. I generally play 75% non combo magic and I would consider hulk in a sac based deck but its hard to ever come up with ways that flash is great with a non combo focus. Sure you could just get that 6+ mana ETB in for 2 at instant speed but really, when is the last time you saw someone play that without a way for it to be better than that in their deck?
It's a matter of perspective. Both cards can just as easily be played "fairly" and don't have much impact on a game. Moreover, used fairly both can result in cool stories. Conversely, both cards scale and can be used in a stronger fashion (ironically culminating in using the two in conjunction with each other). Where I think they differ if we are looking at them through a casual lens is their effect and the impact the card has on the game. On the one hand you have Flash, which once you get past Hulk and Rector thr power drops off significantly. Then there's the cost: 2 mana for "as an additional cost discard a creature card, put a copy of its etb/ltb ability on the stack, and a dies trigger if that matters" is pretty cool but not back breaking. On the other hand, you have a creature which tutors up creatures into play, and all colors have ways to get creatures which can either being Hulk directly back to play, back into hand, or make copies of it from your graveyard in order to do it again. To me, this ability is more against the spirit of casual Commander than Flash is - even played fairly.

But I've said my opinion about all this before the announcement, even pleading my case directly to members of the RC and CAG. And since the decision was already made, all I can do now is shrug and move on. Maybe even seek Sheldon out and play broken Hulk chains against him at every chance in order to prove him wrong. (That's a joke, obviously.)
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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
Maybe even seek Sheldon out and play broken Hulk chains against him at every chance in order to prove him wrong. (That's a joke, obviously.)
And that's how cyro became the first person banned from playing commander
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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

cryogen wrote:
4 years ago
It's a matter of perspective. Both cards can just as easily be played "fairly" and don't have much impact on a game. Moreover, used fairly both can result in cool stories. Conversely, both cards scale and can be used in a stronger fashion (ironically culminating in using the two in conjunction with each other). Where I think they differ if we are looking at them through a casual lens is their effect and the impact the card has on the game. On the one hand you have Flash, which once you get past Hulk and Rector thr power drops off significantly. Then there's the cost: 2 mana for "as an additional cost discard a creature card, put a copy of its etb/ltb ability on the stack, and a dies trigger if that matters" is pretty cool but not back breaking. On the other hand, you have a creature which tutors up creatures into play, and all colors have ways to get creatures which can either being Hulk directly back to play, back into hand, or make copies of it from your graveyard in order to do it again. To me, this ability is more against the spirit of casual Commander than Flash is - even played fairly.
I'd agree with this. I've been looking for a place to fairly use Hulk for a little while now, and I honestly haven't been confident in a place in my decks where it doesn't just end a game or give me the tools to do so. There are some cool chains you can make with it, but it really is one of those cards you have to wilfully not combo with.

I totally get the danger of Flash though. Very early wins, very few ways of interacting with it to stop the combo*, but the drop off in value outside of a competitive meta is pretty significant. Put Flash in the hands of a casual jank player and you might get some neat plays, put Protean Hulk in those same hands and there's still a good chance they can end the game on the spot. It is what it is though, I'm actually quite happy with the outcome of this banlist update. But Hulk is still fairly gross, and we all know it.

*That's not to say combo is bad, per se, some games need to end. It just tends to be the yardstick most people use for distinguishing between casual and competitive.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I am sure you'll get a commander that makes hulk socially acceptable to abuse at some point and it'll come blaring back into the spotlight. :P

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Post by if4ko » 4 years ago

Sheldon's article is free now, for anyone who wants to read it. I'm glad that people are starting to catch onto his real beliefs.

(Also r/cEDH really needs a downvote button at this point to regulate discussion)

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Post by Airi » 4 years ago

I can't really say that made Companion and Lutri more palatable, but I at least appreciate that Sheldon took the time to explain his stance on them.

I'll probably be eternally salty about the legality of the mechanic but it sounds like it's not going anywhere.

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