Killing commanders (permanently)

[DirkGently]

I've been doing some thinking recently on methods for dealing with especially problematic commanders - commanders that are either particularly dangerous (selvala, heart of the wilds), particularly hard to get rid of (derevi, empyrial tactician), or which removal/counters are not very effective against (Maelstrom Wanderer). Commanders that you'd like to erase off the face of the Earth. Of course, in the days of yore there was the option of tuck, but while that tool has been taken away, there are still options left available.

I'll just list off what I've got so far:

1) Song of the Dryads, darksteel mutation, or other removal that keeps the commander on the battlefield but renders it irrelevant. Especially the two that turn it into a land (imprison in the moon being the other) can be very difficult for decks to deal with if they don't have enchantment removal, since most decks can't sacrifice lands. And what enchantment removal they might have can be countered. This method is the most straightforward, compared to the other tricky tricks. However, it does run the risk of the commander being freed at some point down the line.

2) The fakeout tuck. Start by putting the commander on top of their deck with, say, expel from orazca. They let it go on top, preferring to lose the draw as to not to jack up the tax. Then follow it up with a spell that forces a shuffle, like bribery. Commander didn't change zones, so they're SOL. Tuck achieved in 2020!

3) Mindslaver. There's only 4 cards that let you control an opponent (not counting word of command which I'm pretty sure can't be used in this way, but if there's some way it can be lmk, that card is confusing as hell), and two are black (sorin, worst fears, emrakul being the other 3), so your options are somewhat limited here. And they're all very slow and expensive. But with mindslaver you can either force them to chump attack and leave their commander in the grave, or exile their commander with either your own removal spell, or theirs if you're very lucky. Permanent exile, sweet. It even works against eminence commanders like Inalla because you can force them to be cast and then Swords them right in the face.

4) The fakeout exile. This one is my favourite but unfortunately it's kind of cheating. The idea is to exile their commander with a temporary effect - such as mistmeadow witch - and then stifle the trigger when it tries to return to the battlefield. But unfortunately with *most* of these effects, it's relying on a bit of a cheat. With mistmeadow witch, you can send your commander to the command zone instead of exile and - provided no stifles happen - it will still return regardless, so that if it DOES get stranded there by a stifle, you can just recast. Meaning there's no reason NOT to send it to the CZ unless you didn't know that part of the rules, or you just didn't bother to specify because you weren't expecting anything tricky to happen. To my understanding of the rules, in order to avoid this loophole, you need a card that references "the exiled card" specifically - for example, voyager's staff. To really make this work, though, you'd prefer something reusable so that they can't just treat your voyager staff like removal, shrug, and pay the tax. Barring some recursion/blinky shenanigans, the only reusable tools that do this, to my knowledge, are identity thief and Tawnos's coffin. And coffin is such that they're likely to put it in the CZ anyway, since it's presumably trapped in there without artifact removal - leaving identity thief as really the only card where they're likely to "take the bait" and allow their commander to be exiled so you can stifle the trigger.

5) Meddling Mage, Nevermore, etc. If they can't even cast their commander, there's not much to fear from it. Unless it's Derevi, then you'll need a pithing needle. This method is pretty similar to #1 in that it works great so long as it doesn't get removed, but you can never be certain that you've solved the problem permanently. One K-grip and it's back to square one.

6) Use Vanishing to keep their commander off the board constantly. This has some advantages compared to #1 in that the enchantment comes with the creature when it phases out, so it's resistant to removal. But it's still weak to sacrifice outlets, and many commanders can activate abilities or trigger during that brief window before they phase out, making it ineffective.

7) Theft. If you've got the commander, then it's probably not going to be a problem anymore, barring something like Hokori that has a symmetrical effect. Of course this has all the risks of #1, but at least you have the benefit of having the commander yourself. And if you have a sac outlet, at least you can sacrifice it if they try to destroy whatever enchantment you're keeping their commander in thrall with.

8) Price them off it. This could be done the hard way by removing it over and over, or the easy way by destroying/disabling the mana with land/artifact destruction.

9) Efficient repeated-removal machines. The most commonly used being grave pact and co, which can even keep Derevi off the field with sufficient fuel. Along with everything else, of course. Depending on your target, something as simple as Avatar of Woe might do the trick.

Do you have any other ideas, or information to add to the existing ones? Please share!

[Outcryqq]

In addition to what you mentioned, I also like permanent theft (Sower of Temptation, Gilded Drake, Chromeshell Crab, and Olivia Voldaren are some of my favorites) and flipping them face down (Ixidron).

[hyalopterouslemur]

Land destruction works wonders. (And things like Winter Orb and tax.)

Against Voltron, it might actually be more effective to drop their power, either by Sun Titan and "bad" auras (like agaok nst *cough* *cough#* Sigarda, Host of Herons) by something like Black Sun's Zenith. Or just throw infect/wither critters at them.

[pokken]

What I have found is that almost all of these problem commanders enable rapid spellcasting which gets crapped on by rule of law effects. So something like eidolon of rhetoric is one of my gotos to solve the problems these guys represent. It doesn't *always* work, but it works a high enough percentage of the time that I enjoy those effects.

Guys this craps on that I hate hate hate

• edric, spymaster of trest
• maelstrom wanderer
• animar, soul of elements
• golos, tireless pilgrim
• selvala, heart of the wilds
• prossh, skyraider of kher

And the list goes on and on.

But other than that I think the list is fairly exhaustive in terms of approach.

A thing I used to do with one of the hated generals (derevi, empyrial tactician was set up repeated removal lock with dismiss into dream. But there're similar options, e.g. attrition and grave pact.

I once locked an Animar player out with walking ballista and felt pretty bad about it but wasn't really another play I had other than lose to the combo.

[DirkGently]

These are all great, I've added them to the list. Keep 'em coming!

I once locked an Animar player out with walking ballista and felt pretty bad about it but wasn't really another play I had other than lose to the combo.

In a 1v1 commander tourney (it was pretty casual competitiveness-wise) I was playing the knight/dragon partners from battlebond and going aggro. Final match I went up against animar - protection from my primary wincon and most of my removal. Drew a bolt - one of my only non-white removals - to kill animar the first time, and by the time he could recast I had enough to equip sword of fire and ice and destroy any hope of him ever keeping animar on the table. And then the next game, jitte. He looked very disappointed.

Your list looks similar to mine. Although I think mine is about 10x longer lol.

[MeowZeDung]

imprisoned in the moon, frogify/kasmina's transmutation, role reversal are my go to options for somewhat permanent, or at least long lasting, commander removal. I'm fortunate that I don't face off against Golos, derevi, maelstrom, etc hardly ever, so it's not a huge issue for me.

Edit: I'm absolutely looking at creating locks with vadrok, apex of thunder and leadership vacuum

[UnNamed1]

3) Mindslaver. There's only 4 cards that let you control an opponent (not counting word of command which I'm pretty sure can't be used in this way, but if there's some way it can be lmk, that card is confusing as hell), and two are black (sorin, worst fears, emrakul being the other 3), so your options are somewhat limited here. And they're all very slow and expensive. But with mindslaver you can either force them to chump attack and leave their commander in the grave, or exile their commander with either your own removal spell, or theirs if you're very lucky. Permanent exile, sweet. It even works against eminence commanders like Inalla because you can force them to be cast and then Swords them right in the face.

From my understanding of the rules this doesn't work. The player's whose turn you are taking can still choose where their commander goes. We have an Emrakul player at my LGS so while you can force them to kill their commander, they can still put it back into the CZ. Feel free to correct me, but last I knew you always get the choice to put your commander back to the CZ.

[Mimicvat]

40 damage has always been the best way imo

[plushpenguin]

My three favorite ways are Oko, Thief of Crowns, Kenrith's Transformation, and Gilded Drake.

Turning the problem into an elk is pretty effective.

[illakunsaa]

3) Mindslaver. There's only 4 cards that let you control an opponent (not counting word of command which I'm pretty sure can't be used in this way, but if there's some way it can be lmk, that card is confusing as hell), and two are black (sorin, worst fears, emrakul being the other 3), so your options are somewhat limited here. And they're all very slow and expensive. But with mindslaver you can either force them to chump attack and leave their commander in the grave, or exile their commander with either your own removal spell, or theirs if you're very lucky. Permanent exile, sweet. It even works against eminence commanders like Inalla because you can force them to be cast and then Swords them right in the face.

From my understanding of the rules this doesn't work. The player's whose turn you are taking can still choose where their commander goes. We have an Emrakul player at my LGS so while you can force them to kill their commander, they can still put it back into the CZ. Feel free to correct me, but last I knew you always get the choice to put your commander back to the CZ.

When you gain control of a player you get to make all the decisions for that player. This includes where to put the commander when it changes zones.

[illakunsaa]

I'm pretty sure you can pithing needle derevi/yuriko

[Sinis]

Worst Fears or another Turn control effect, and then exile/tuck it during the controlled turn (maybe even with their own card!).

Since you make decisions, you can opt to not put it in the command zone for them, killing it forever.

[toctheyounger]

I really like Song of the Dryads and Imprisoned in the Moon. They're slow to cast of course, but if they resolve most likely the commander is stuck the way it is. Not many folk run land sacrifice unless it's a theme in the deck.

The other card I've had huge mileage from is Archfiend of Ifnir. I run it in Dralnu and Varina, both of which discard a fair amount, Dralnu if for no other reason than overdrawing by intent. Obviously Archfiend isn't commander specific, but being able to shred boards left right and centre makes it hard to land a commander and make it stick.

Otherwise, I'm happy to outprice the CMC too - the only times that doesn't work is with decks that run mana doublers, or decks that run low to the ground and close out games quickly.

[Drusus]

Drannith Magistrate and Mimic Vat.

[DirkGently]

Drannith Magistrate and Mimic Vat.

Hmm? How does mimic vat help? Just as a way to block grave recursion from commanders?

Drannith magistrate would be covered by method 5. Although I'm focusing more on methods to deny specific commanders, not all commanders.

[Drusus]

Drannith Magistrate and Mimic Vat.

Hmm? How does mimic vat help? Just as a way to block grave recursion from commanders?

Drannith magistrate would be covered by method 5. Although I'm focusing more on methods to deny specific commanders, not all commanders.

Well the token from Mimic Vat gets exiled at end of turn, so the token of the Drannith Magistrate doesn't exist when its another player's turn. Essentially its the same principle as Isochron Scepter with an imprinted Silence.

While the magistrate token is out they can't cast their commander. For other players, including yourself, you can cast as long as a magistrate token is not out.

[ZenN]

It's worth noting that if person A is playing a deck that really wants to have their commander on the table and person B is doing something to specifically make sure that person A doesn't get to play, odds are very good that person A will be throwing every single resource they have at person B, regardless of what anybody else at the table might be doing. Because spite is a strong emotion, and leads to a, "if I don't get to play, neither do you," sort of mentality.

Obviously if you're playing 1v1 that doesn't really matter, but in like a 4 player game that just leads to 2+ people having a bad time. So while I think some of these are great, like putting a Song of the Dryads on someone's commander, the other stuff like hitting someone with Mindslaver and exiling their commander is probably not something you want to do in a multiplayer game unless you just dislike having friends or something. The difference being that one of those is using a solid piece of removal and should happen organically, while the other is going out of your way to use a weird rules interaction to make sure that person doesn't get to have fun.

Just something to consider.

[DirkGently]

It's worth noting that if person A is playing a deck that really wants to have their commander on the table and person B is doing something to specifically make sure that person A doesn't get to play, odds are very good that person A will be throwing every single resource they have at person B, regardless of what anybody else at the table might be doing. Because spite is a strong emotion, and leads to a, "if I don't get to play, neither do you," sort of mentality.

Obviously if you're playing 1v1 that doesn't really matter, but in like a 4 player game that just leads to 2+ people having a bad time. So while I think some of these are great, like putting a Song of the Dryads on someone's commander, the other stuff like hitting someone with Mindslaver and exiling their commander is probably not something you want to do in a multiplayer game unless you just dislike having friends or something. The difference being that one of those is using a solid piece of removal and should happen organically, while the other is going out of your way to use a weird rules interaction to make sure that person doesn't get to have fun.

Just something to consider.

This is just a brainstorming thread. So absolutely nothing is off the table, no matter how friend-losing it might be. I think it's worth being aware of every possibility - both to potentially abuse, but also for purposes of defense. If someone blinks your commander, and they're playing blue, you might just want to think about putting it into the CZ instead.

Unfortunately, I think wotc has printed quite a few commanders that, for all intents and purposes, you MUST keep this off the table or the game will be over, at least in a reasonably tuned deck. I certainly prefer a wait-and-see approach, because even broken commanders sometimes pilot casual decks, but once a deck has revealed itself to be an "I will win/take over the game if given even the slightest opportunity" kind of deck, often the easiest line of attack is to disable their commander as permanently as possible. I really don't feel sorry for someone piloting one of those commanders if they get taken offline. You know what it's going to do if I leave you alone. You know you aren't giving me a choice. You want to win, and I don't want you to win, and I'm going to do what I must to make sure that happens.

I feel like your first paragraph really applies more to the "keep killing it over and over" approach. Those games can be a real drag, and are exactly the sort of thing I'd like to avoid by permanently removing their commander. With most of the permanent removal methods, they don't really have a window between "realizing you want to put their commander through a paper shredder" and "it's too late to do anything about it". I mean, if you hit them with mindslaver and exile their commander, they can attack you just for spite, but it won't bring their commander back. Song, on the other hand, can be removed by killing its controller, so attacking you makes sense. So I think your argument goes the opposite direction of how you think it does. Though of course, not all players are rational actors, and I can see someone having a tantrum and flipping a table because their commander got exiled.

The plus side to exiling their commander permanently is that it means they HAVE to find a plan B. With any other method, they can bide their time and try to find removal for your enchantment, or a tutor to find their commander again, or whatever. But if you exile it, it's never coming back and they'll have to think of something else if they want to have a chance.

All that said, all of these methods so far seem far more difficult than song of the dryads. So despite song of the dryads being pretty unreliable, the speed at which it can be deployed, and the ease of doing so, probably still make it the best choice.

[umtiger]

Gilded Drake being Blue and only 2cmc is just one of the many reasons why Blue is so strong.

At that point, it's just a supremely superior Beast Within/Generous Gift in terms of tempo.

It's worth noting that if person A is playing a deck that really wants to have their commander on the table and person B is doing something to specifically make sure that person A doesn't get to play, odds are very good that person A will be throwing every single resource they have at person B, regardless of what anybody else at the table might be doing. Because spite is a strong emotion, and leads to a, "if I don't get to play, neither do you," sort of mentality.

Just something to consider.

It's only spite if it carries over to the next game.

If you need the commander to operate, at that points it's more in the lines of "if I can't play with you still in the game, I've got to end you being in the game." And that's legit.

That Mindslaver ruling on the command zone really needs to be changed, especially with the amount of Emrakul. Mindslaver I rarely see played at all.

[darrenhabib]

Humility, Overwhelming Splendor.

This is really conditional on how good an actor you can be, but on the "fakeout exile" front you can have a card like Act of Authority and give it to one of your opponents.
Then you cast Grasp of Fate on everyone commanders, and then you go "Oooooh damn I forgot about the Act of Authority!!!".
Then your opponents put their commander into exile, expecting the player to use Act on the Grasp.
That's when you snare them with Stifle lol.

[EDIT]
I guess that wouldn't work as they can use the Act of Authority while the Grasp of Fate initial trigger is on the stack, meaning they don't get exiled at all.
I think Oblivion Ring or Fiend Hunter works for at least one commander?

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I love me a good thought experiment, but this thread strikes me as a somewhat putrid display of gamesmanship. You're going to deliberately try to permanently disable a fundamental, defining aspect of the format and gameplay experience for what exactly? To prove you can? To show that Korvold player who's boss because you couldn't be bothered to discuss that a t5 win is not within your ideal game today?

Honestly, the format is better if you don't break it. It's even better if everyone plays to maximize each player's chance at a good time. Nothing in this thread is going to make anyone's games better, but it might convince a few to do something else with their free time than play EDH with people who are actively trying to turn the games into highlander vintage.

EDIT: just remembered that this stuff was exactly what got Tuck the axe, now I'm concerned you all are gonna make those poor folks rewrite the rules again to cover this %$#% too.

[Cyberium]

Should we bring back the old tuck rule? Just like EDH had evolved from all big creature big spell, we're also getting more and more legends with combo potential, perhaps it's time to at least have tucking as an "option" until your group says otherwise.

[toctheyounger]

I love me a good thought experiment, but this thread strikes me as a somewhat putrid display of gamesmanship. You're going to deliberately try to permanently disable a fundamental, defining aspect of the format and gameplay experience for what exactly? To prove you can? To show that Korvold player who's boss because you couldn't be bothered to discuss that a t5 win is not within your ideal game today?

Honestly, the format is better if you don't break it. It's even better if everyone plays to maximize each player's chance at a good time. Nothing in this thread is going to make anyone's games better, but it might convince a few to do something else with their free time than play EDH with people who are actively trying to turn the games into highlander vintage.

EDIT: just remembered that this stuff was exactly what got Tuck the axe, now I'm concerned you all are gonna make those poor folks rewrite the rules again to cover this %$#% too.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. There's a lot of commanders out there that will dominate a game if unchecked. It forces an atmosphere of 'answer me or the game is over'. It sucks to be on the receiving end of that with no answers, so yes, this question is valid, at least insofar as having these answers will give you a fighting chance to win. By comparison, having no chance is garbage.

Really, all we're talking about here is ways to force people to adhere to the usual symmetry of the format instead of being able to cast T3 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth followed by the same T4, 5 and 6. A fair game is a game you can win, a game where a commander warps the boardstate and won't relent is not. And that's the thing, usually these commanders run a significant degree of support to be able to continuously cast their commander, so let's not think that theyre being ganged up on - they know what they're doing and they've planned ahead of time around it.

[darrenhabib]

I love me a good thought experiment, but this thread strikes me as a somewhat putrid display of gamesmanship. You're going to deliberately try to permanently disable a fundamental, defining aspect of the format and gameplay experience for what exactly? To prove you can? To show that Korvold player who's boss because you couldn't be bothered to discuss that a t5 win is not within your ideal game today?

Honestly, the format is better if you don't break it. It's even better if everyone plays to maximize each player's chance at a good time. Nothing in this thread is going to make anyone's games better, but it might convince a few to do something else with their free time than play EDH with people who are actively trying to turn the games into highlander vintage.

EDIT: just remembered that this stuff was exactly what got Tuck the axe, now I'm concerned you all are gonna make those poor folks rewrite the rules again to cover this %$#% too.

You are making out that the thread is toxic in some manner.

Anyway another thing I thought you could do is chloroform your opponent, and when they wake up and say "what happened?", just point to their commander in the exile zone and say "for some reason you put your commander into the exile zone, don't you remember?".

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This is a just a joke post. This is how I get my kicks making jokes.

[Wallycaine]

Humility, Overwhelming Splendor.

This is really conditional on how good an actor you can be, but on the "fakeout exile" front you can have a card like Act of Authority and give it to one of your opponents.
Then you cast Grasp of Fate on everyone commanders, and then you go "Oooooh damn I forgot about the Act of Authority!!!".
Then your opponents put their commander into exile, expecting the player to use Act on the Grasp.
That's when you snare them with Stifle lol.

[EDIT]
I guess that wouldn't work as they can use the Act of Authority while the Grasp of Fate initial trigger is on the stack, meaning they don't get exiled at all.
I think Oblivion Ring or Fiend Hunter works for at least one commander?

Stifle wouldn't work on Grasp of Fate at all, it just sets a duration rather than creates a second trigger.