Brainstorming Vadrok, Apex of Thunder

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

As a Jeskai nerd I'm really loving the new sets as they are spoiled. Most of my frequently played decks are getting more goodies than they did in Theros and Eldraine (Underworld Breach notwithstanding).

I really wasn't ecstatic about the commander options from the last two sets, but Ikoria/C20 are delivering the goods!:

- I'm sure I'll enjoy Gavi, Nest Warden the handful of times I jam the pre-con, but then she'll go to the 99 somewhere else or bide her time in a binder or box.

- Rielle, the Everwise is another that will be fantastic in the 99 in a couple of decks, but I think she's going to be too close to competitive status as a general, so I'll probably hold off.

- Zirda, the Dawnwaker makes me happy on several levels, but seems more enticing as a companion than a commander unless you're in the market for a cycling deck. I have one already, and Gavi will make 2, so I'm not that eager just yet. Someday. . .

That leaves me with two commanders (so far) that have me really excited: Brallin/Shabraz and Vadrok, Apex of Thunder. The former really lend themselves to a specific strategy that is pretty easy to map out, so I'll brew that when I get to it. Vadrok, on the other hand, seems like it can be approached from a ton of different angles. That said, I wanted to share my initial thoughts and see what others looking to build Vadrok had in mind so we can all make our initial builds better.







Analyzing Vadrok:

for a 3/3 with flying and first strike - a Mantis Rider isn't very exciting in commander. Decent, but not what anyone really wants from a general.

Mutate - 4 mana isn't bad for a mutate cost, especially for the effect we're going to get from it. It is definitely worth noting that it is particularly hungry for red mana, so our manabase and card selections should reflect this with fixing or a bias toward red.

It is also worth noting that mutate does not get around commander tax, so if we want multiple Vadrok mutations we are incentivized to mutate more critters onto a stack that has Vadrok on it, or return Vadrok to our hand.

Note that all creatures on a mutate stack go to the same zone when something happens to them. For example, if they are flickered, the whole stack gets exiled, then each creature returns to the battlefield as its own creature *not* the mutated stack creature. If the stack is hit with Swords to Plowshares, all of the creatures are exiled, but you can send Vadrok to the command zone. If the stack is hit with Leadership Vacuum, then all of the cards go to the command zone and all except Vadrok are stuck there. So on and so forth. We can use this to our advantage with etb creatures and/or Unsummon effects.

Some of you may want to pursue a flash heavy route with Vedalken Orerry, Leyline of Anticipation, Tidal Barracuda, etc. so you can mutate at instant speed. This does open up some options in combat and end steps, but I won't be pursuing it since Vadrok can't buy any of the enablers back.

Whenever this creature mutates, you may cast target noncreature card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard without paying its mana cost. - I'm in. It's like a quasi Sun Titan + a quasi Torrential Gearhulk. Unlike Titan, Vadrok's trigger can't get lands or creatures, and unlike Gearhulk it is not limited to only instants. Most notably, however, is that Vadrok triggers don't exile the card they are casting from the yard like Gearhulk, and other flashback effects. In my opinion this means that any Vadrok list worth its salt is going to try to create situations where this mutate trigger hits the stack as frequently as possible and abuses a graveyard full of spells that would be great to cast over and over. . . and over.

So to start the conversation I'm going to posit 4 things (apart from the usual ramp/removal/etc.) a Vadrok build needs in some capacity, and then suggest cards that would be worth *consideration*, though some will inevitably not make the cut:

1.) Worthy targets to mutate Vadrok with.
2.) Ways to mutate Vadrok repeatedly.
3.) Ways to fill the yard with plenty of targets for Vadrok's mutate trigger.
4.) Quality targets for Vadrok's mutate trigger to cast from the graveyard.






1.)Worthy targets to mutate Vadrok with.


The inherent weakness of Mutate is that, like with targeting a creature with an aura, the base creature can be targeted by instant speed removal by our opponents in response and result in a 2 for 1 or worse. Blowouts aren't fun, so we'd like to avoid them. The safest way to do this, IMO, is via hexproof and, to a lesser extent, indestructible or ETB/value base creatures. Anything on top of that is gravy, and of course we want all the gravy we can get. (Some of that gravy will overlap with #2-4 above, which is ideal!)

There are a lot of Jeskai critters that fit this description that are just draft chaff and underwhelming, like Benthic Giant, but there are certainly some goodies. Since the list of playable hexproof creatures is relatively short, I'm also looking at ways to give hexproof to creatures who don't have it:





Hexproof
Show
Hide
  • Dive Down - I like this effect because not only is it a cheap way to grant hexproof to a juicy mutate target, it does so at instant speed. This means we can keep it in hand until it's absolutely necessary and removal pointed at our creature is on the stack, so we get to have our hexproof creature and put an opponent down a card too! It is a terrible target for Vadrok in the yard though.

  • Glaring Spotlight - The static effect could be meaningful in some situations, and the fact that Vadrok can get it back from the yard eventually if absolutely necessary makes the sacrifice a bit less painful. Most importantly, I think granting unblockable is going to be a big deal with some of the creatures I'm interested in having combat damage to player triggers.

  • Mizzium Skin - A little less junk in the trunk than Dive Down, which isn't a huge deal, and the overload is unlikely to be useful in a deck focused on mutating one big thing rather than going wide. Other than that, it's functionally the same.

  • Glint, Lazotep Plating, Starlit Mantle - The slightly more expensive versions are still alright. The amass token from plating could be relevant, but it's not amazing, and again the global hexproof is unlikely to be amazing for a "go tall" board state.

  • Mask of Avacyn, Mirror Shield, Hexproof Boots - All pretty comparable with the boots being the best. Unlike the instant/flash hexproof enablers, these might be worth getting back with Vadrok.

  • Cloudform, Curator's Ward - Cloudform can turn a land into a hexproof creature and doesn't run the risk that conventional auras do. Ward is a bigger risk, but with ways to bounce the mutated creature stack to hand, this will generate card advantage throughout the game. Note that you will need Vadrok, another legendary, or artifact creature on top of the mutate stack to get the card draw from Ward since it triggers based on the creature being historic.

  • Geist of Saint Traft - Geist is already good enough for commander, but turning it into a 3/3 flying first striker makes it even better and lets it get more attacks in safely. Since we don't get access to humans for mutate, we miss out on some cheap options, so Geist is as low on the curve as it gets for hexproof base creatures for us.

  • Aquatic Incursion - Unfortunately, it's out of recursion range with Vadrok, but two hexproof bodies and a way to give them unblockable might be worth it, although once they get nabbed by a board wipe or some such we won't be able to get more, and we aren't exactly merfolk tribal.

  • Ascended Lawmage, Aven Fleetwing, Mistfire Weaver - Tough to say if these are worth it. I'd say they are on or near the line of jank and "useful for pretty much exactly this deck simply because it's hexproof and has a cmc of 4". Depends on how many creatures you end up running I suppose.

  • Dragonlord Ojutai - Now we're talking! We can keep the 5/4 base while we mutate pre-combat and get our Vadrok value, then go attacking and generate some card advantage while we hold up a Dive Down or Unsummon.

  • Lone Revenant - Similar to Ojutai, but I think we'll usually mutate Vadrok on top for the evasion, and the hexproof stays while we attack.

  • Stormsurge Kraken - A 7/7 flying, first strike, hexproof may not get blocked a lot, but when it does "become blocked" we get some cards, and if it's going to die in combat we still get to draw two before combat damage and then pull it back with an unsummon.

  • Prognostic Sphinx, Dream Trawler - Unlike in standard where these were control finishers, in a game of commander almost no one is willing to burn a card targeting it so you won't attack them for 3 when they know you can just respond with a discard/hexproof on the stack, multiple times if necessary. It can still hurt to do so, but in the balance of things I believe they will scry and draw more than they end up discarding. Not to mention that the attack phase isn't where we really want the hexproof, but rather when we are mutating, so we don't mind if they tap while we mutate.

  • Angler Turtle, Kiora Bests the Sea God, Tromokratis - These may be a bridge too far, but commander is about haymakers, and since I plan on building Vadrok into a controlling deck with some Propaganda effects, this could really alter the board in our favor.

  • Sphinx of the Final Word - Only worth it if your build focuses heavily on spellslinging IMO, but if you're going to hit a powerful instant/sorcery with Vadrok triggers multiple times a game, this might be worth putting in as a curve topper.


Indestructible
Show
Hide
  • Ajani's Presence, Fight as One, Sheltering Light - Good for helping our mutant survive a wrath or destruction/damage based instant speed removal without self owning our mutation with a protection spell like gods willing. Anything less than hexproof makes me nervous though, not gonna lie.

  • Boros Charm, Ephemeral Shields, Valorous Stance - The modality of charm and stance are useful, and shields has the potential to be "free".

  • Darksteel Myr -Yup. It's cheap. Turn 1-2 Faithless Looting or Careful Study into turn 2-3 myr into turn 3-4 Vadrok seems sweet.

  • Darksteel Plate - I don't think I'm into it, but I'm willing to be convinced I'm wrong.

  • Gideon Blackblade - Vadrok can buy him back after you ult or he's removed, and you can mutate onto Gids or whatever other creature he makes indestructible for the turn.

  • Kefnet the Mindful - Mana sinks and drawing cards are both very powerful things in commander. The cannot block clause hurts far worse than the cannot attack. Kefnet does let you set up blocking ambushes on opponents not paying attention to your hand size though.

  • Creepy Doll - A nice little rattlesnake, especially once it's mutated and has first strike.

  • Stuffy Doll - Similar to it's creepy sibling, but you can get political with this one!


ETB and/or value creatures
Show
Hide
I'm keeping this list on the cheap side, since the whole idea is we're looking to bounce and recast these creatures many times a game.
Obviously there's too much there to fit all in one deck, but I want to start with a broad range of ideas. I'm most inclined to run the best hexproof creatures and instants, then the best ETB value creatures, and the Whitemane Lion type creatures to keep an engine going and keep it protected.





2.) Ways to mutate Vadrok repeatedly.


The most obvious and straightforward way is to just play more mutate creatures. That's fine to some extent, but I wouldn't go too deep on that strategy since they come with all the risks of getting blown out as previously mentioned. However, there's some really good ones that we should definitely consider.

My preferred method, which I'm sure you've notice a jillion times by this point, is to mutate, bounce, recast the base creature, then mutate again. It's even better when you can get two unsummon creatures because then your play pattern becomes: play ETB value creature, mutate, play unsummon creature A, mutate, play unsummon creature B, mutate. This keeps the creatures flowing, Vadrok bouncing, and everything relatively safe from a huge card disadvantage blowout. The creature versions were covered above, so I'll list spell versions here.
Mutate creatures
Show
Hide
The Bounce Suite
Show
Hide





3.) Ways to fill the yard with plenty of targets for Vadrok's mutate trigger.

There are really two approaches here imo. The first is to use smaller filtering spells and creatures, like Faithless Looting, Frantic Search, Smuggler's Copter, Wall of Lost Thoughts, etc. to set up for that early Vadrok trigger. The other is to dump a ton of cards in the yard in one fell swoop, then target whatever you need when you need it with Vadrok's mutate trigger.

I think the best of each is probably correct.

I covered a lot of the self-mill/loot creatures earlier, so I'll focus more on the spells and big graveyard fillers here.
Loot/Rummage
Show
Hide
Fill the yard FAST
Show
Hide





4.) Quality targets for Vadrok's mutate trigger to cast from the graveyard.

Now we come to the reason you play Vadrok, Apex of Thunder in the first place! I'll admit, this is the part of the deck I'm still working through in my mind the most. I'm sure I'm overlooking some really powerful possibilities, and I'm eager to hear what others have in mind!

Since we're capped at 3 cmc, we mostly have to look for accrued value and control of the game rather than instant victory, unless you're going a combo route, in which case I'm sure it's there. As a matter of fact, I know it's there and I'll share an example with you now :cool: :
Combo demo
Show
Hide
With at least two creatures in play, cast Arcbond targeting one of them. Mutate Vadrok, Apex of Thunder onto one of your creatures, playing Arcbond from your graveyard for free and targeting a different creature than the first arcbond did. Now cast something that gives the team indestructible, like Boros Charm. Finally, cast Deafening Clarion selecting both modes. Your two arcbonded, indestructible, lifelinkers creatures will now bounce damage back and forth to themselves and each player indefinitely. (props to @tstorm823 who clued me into the possibilities of 2x arcbond + indestructible + lifelink just the other day).

Now, the great thing about that is that all of the cards involved can be had from Vadrok's mutate trigger. Multiple times per turn if you've got the bounce and mana available. So, you can arrange for that same basic combo from multiple angles. Maybe mutate → arcbond from gy → unsummon → mutate → arcbond from gy → Boros CharmJeskai CharmIzzet Charm for the same outcome.

Obviously this is a convoluted, expensive, roundabout way of winning. 1.) that's fun 2.) the point, IMO, with Vadrok is to play a more controlling role all game until you've developed to a point that setting up nonsense like this is very doable.
So, it's getting late, and my brain is fried for the day, but I don't want to save a draft of this and pick it up tomorrow, so here's a much less detailed list of cards for this category that I hope you will all add to and comment on! I will add more to this as spoilers continue and I think over it more and search scryfall endlessly while bored at work. As I said, I'll guarantee this is the aspect of the deck I'm overlooking the most possibilities for.
Pillow Fort/Staying Alive
Show
Hide
Even more annoying now since the table has to exile them or they keep coming back!
Then there's a list of goodstuff and combo pieces a la Bonus Round, Stitch in Time, etc. that I just can't go into tonight. My brain and body are mush. I hope you'll join in the brewing and let me know what you think I've got right, what I've got horribly wrong, and what cool things you would do with Vadrok. G'night.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

Tags:

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1834
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Ha ha, now I know what its like to come across one of my posts. Nice work.

I still think that return to hand creatures are the best way to get reusable value.

Blinking Spirit, Brightling
Darting Merfolk, Fae of Wishes, Fleeting Aven, Fleeting Image, Mercurial Pretender, Sakashima the Impostor, Skywing Aven, Thalakos Scout
Glitterfang, Shivan Phoenix, Zodiac Dragon, Immortal Phoenix

So the way to use Vadrok, Apex of Thunder each turn would be to cast Glitterfang and mutate onto it, and then they both return to your hand at end of turn. You can do this every turn. This also protects from sorcery speed removal.

Then maybe Darting Merfolk is another good one, as you can keep it in play as you might want to mutate another creature onto it later on, but it also has the inbuilt way to return them to hand against removal, or just wanting to mutate again.
Thalakos Scout or Skywing Aven are fine as well, and you can put a card into your graveyard to cast.

Also phasing is the only way to hold the mutation pile together against removal:
Frenetic Efreet, Rainbow Efreet, Teferi's Honor Guard.
On that note you can use Teferi's Veil as another protection tool.

So although hexproof is good against targeted removal, not so much against board wipes.

As far as targets for 3 cmc or less, Restore Balance, Ancestral Vision, Wheel of Fate are the ones you can cheat the suspend criteria.
Restore Balance is particularly good if you're are looking at just the one mutated creature, forcing your opponents to sacrifice down to one. Discarding cards should be fine as well, as you get graveyard value.

Intuition is excellent for tutoring cards.

You could look at extra turn cards in Chance for Glory, Final Fortune, Last Chance, Warrior's Oath.
But you'd need Day's Undoing or Sundial of the Infinite.

If you can double mutate each turn then you can go infinite.
Say with Darting Merfolk you can mutate each turn and you can cast the extra turn card and the Day's Undoing the following turn.
Then every subsequent turn you'll be casting an extra turn card and the Day's Undoing.
Or if you have Lore Drakkis then you just need to mutate once and return the other to cast.

Second Chance is infinite if you have 5 or less life.

Stitch in Time is a random chance, but cast it enough times, and just getting a few extra turns here or there is pretty great. You can use Lore Drakkis to double your chances each turn.

I feel like Eerie Interlude and Ghostway are going to be a powerful recurring effect. Spellseeker, Trinket Mage, Archaeomancer, Man-o'-War (returning mutations).
That type of thing every turn. Ghostly Flicker to a lesser extend.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

Thanks for the input @darrenhabib!

Of course self bounce creatures are amazing for this deck. Why on earth didn't I think of that, especially since I praised WotC in the Otrimi thread the other day for having the sense to include Wydwen, the Biting Gale in the precon??? I like the instant speed returners way more though. Glitterfang is a huuuuuge risk.

The other issue is, there aren't a ton of them, so the creature base will have to be supplemented with other things. I still think Quickling, Whitemane Lion, Stonecloaker, etc. are great options since you can still do your bouncing at instant speed for free chump blocks, and you're left with a creature to mutate back onto. Of course, they don't help out with board wipes. However, if we're only losing one creature to a board wipe, and it's a 2-3 drop, are we really that sad?

I had kind of ruled out Ghostly Flicker and Eerie Interlude since Vadrok would return to the battlefield un-mutated, but you make a great point that if it's also hitting a bouncer like Whitemane Lion and/or an ETB creature like Archaeomancer or whatever, then you get to get some value and/or send Vadrok back to hand. Eerie Interlude also protects against board wipes.

Good call on cheating suspend costs.

I didn't want to go too hard down an extra turn route, but Stitch in Time seems eminently fair. Once you hit the point that you can reliably mutate Vadrok 2x per turn, you've got a really good shot at going infinite with it though.

Good stuff. Lots of food for thought.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
tstorm823
Knowledge Pool
Posts: 1044
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him
Location: York, PA

Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

You had me fooled! I was looking for Leave // Chance in the bounce section, and it was in the looting section. My only other comment was going to be Wheel of Fate, and that got covered.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure at this point we have the same magic brain.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
4 years ago
To be fair, I'm pretty sure at this point we have the same magic brain.
:nerd: isn't it great?
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

I've given Vadrok a fair bit more thought today during my downtime at work with my good friend scryfall. I've reached several conclusions about how I personally will build my initial list, bits of which will probably not appeal to the average magic player looking to mutate a dinosaur elemental cat.

What I did want to share though is that I started coming around on the various flash enablers -- especially since we get Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage in our colors and Vadrok is historic -- but ultimately decided they aren't for me, and probably won't be suitable for a lot of others' tastes. My thoughts at first were that flash enablers would set us up for the good ol' Snap-Bolt line of play where we could play draw-go control and get any instant from our yard to suit the situation by mutating Vadrok at flash speed. Sweet. Now we can mutate and cast a cycled Akroma's Blessing in response to a board wipe, or Char the superfriends deck into oblivion, or Chaos Warp the biggest threat on the end step before our turn each round. I'm fine with all that. The reality is, the fun-factor of Vadrok is going to depend on the deck-builder's constraint.

Suppose you fill Vadrok's 99 with the various flash enablers. Emergence Zone, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Vedalken Orrery, Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Tidal Barracuda, Leyline of Anticipation. You can't get any of them back from the yard with Vadrok, but there's enough of them to achieve a level of redundancy so that you are able to see one every game, and that's without tutors. Now suppose you fill the deck with self-bouncing creatures or Whitemane Lions or mutants -- whatever your preferred method of having unfettered access to Vadrok's mutate trigger is -- and cards like these:
Depending on how robust and efficient your mutate engine is, this could get downright staxy and oppressive. Your opponents know you have the counter to suit the situation available because it's revealed information in your graveyard -- not including Fierce Guardianship and Force of Negation -- so they can play around it, but only to bait them out and still have something countered most of the time. If you're able to "reload" and set up for another mutate at instant speed, you could fairly easily lock a single player out of the game and put some serious caution into the others. You would be the archenemy, but I'm sure I'm only scratching the surface of how staxy this could be, so it may not even matter. Winter Orb, Trinisphere, Torpor Orb, Tangle Wire, and Static Orb can all be bought back with Vadrok, and if you're packing bounce tech you can make them all completely asymmetrical.

TL;DR - if there's a competitive version of Vadrok, I'm starting to think it's oppressively permission and stax centered, and the flash enablers make it all possible. I won't be walking down that path, but there it is for those interested.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6360
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I'll be honest dude I don't think this commander winds up with a good design because of how parasitic mutate is. There won't be enough cards to re-mutate the commander for a while, and

Believe me, I thought about it extensively cos I love brewing but I couldn't get to anything that didn't want to just rebounce the commander. And bouncing the commander to spend 4 mana to recast a 3 mana non-creature is just...really not the best :)

The only thing that started to tickle me was a bit of "jam all the 3 mana planeswalkers" as a kinda funny super friends teen titans edition. There're a pretty good number of them and they do some cool things.

I also kinda like the self-sac'ing cheapo stuff like selfless spirit and underworld breach.

But fundamentally it's like a commander with an ETB ability you can't reuse by blinking so you have to set up goofy stuff like familiar's ruse or erratic portal which is just so awkward that I don't think it'd be fun that much.

ETBs on a commander are super awkward unless they're incredibly powerful and this is just so/so. :(

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

Fair points all, and I agree there's nothing streamlined about it - you have to set up a bit of a rube goldberg machine. I think the critical point of note, however, is that you aren't just paying 4 mana for a 3 cmc non-creature, you're potentially doing it on the same ridiculous 3 cmc non-creature over and over. This was one of the biggest difference makers between Underworld Breach and Past in Flames. Playing an effect designed for single use multiple times is powerful; getting to do it without stopping is insane. For example, I forgot to mention in the last post, but with flash enabled you can lock the table down with Glorious End. Crap like that. NVM, it exiles. I mentioned Stitch in Time in the OP I believe. There's 3 cmc non-creatures that when cast repeatedly can be incredibly powerful.

You might be right, but I think there's a fun deck here. If I swing and miss, oh well. There are plenty of other commanders to move on to. More commanders than I could ever build decks for already, and that's just in one wedge :crazy:
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 843
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I'll be honest dude I don't think this commander winds up with a good design because of how parasitic mutate is. There won't be enough cards to re-mutate the commander for a while, and

Believe me, I thought about it extensively cos I love brewing but I couldn't get to anything that didn't want to just rebounce the commander. And bouncing the commander to spend 4 mana to recast a 3 mana non-creature is just...really not the best :)
But self-bounce effect works with all of your creatures. Even if you don't use Vadrok, repeated Snapcaster and other EtB creatures could still be useful. If nothing else, the action itself would save you from paying commander tax.
MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
Fair points all, and I agree there's nothing streamlined about it - you have to set up a bit of a rube goldberg machine. I think the critical point of note, however, is that you aren't just paying 4 mana for a 3 cmc non-creature, you're potentially doing it on the same ridiculous 3 cmc non-creature over and over.
And I think it'd be poetic to blink your stack of creatures at the end of an opponent's turn, separate them, then proceed to go wide with Savage Beating.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6360
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
4 years ago
But self-bounce effect works with all of your creatures. Even if you don't use Vadrok, repeated Snapcaster and other EtB creatures could still be useful.
It's just a pretty old and super boring machine to build, which is the depressing aspect of it to me. I kinda wish you could re-mutate? Like whenever you cast a creature you could attach it to a creature with mutate and it counts as mutating?

I dunno. The whole erratic portal dance has been going on a long while :)

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 843
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
4 years ago
But self-bounce effect works with all of your creatures. Even if you don't use Vadrok, repeated Snapcaster and other EtB creatures could still be useful.
It's just a pretty old and super boring machine to build, which is the depressing aspect of it to me. I kinda wish you could re-mutate? Like whenever you cast a creature you could attach it to a creature with mutate and it counts as mutating?

I dunno. The whole erratic portal dance has been going on a long while :)
True. Come to think of it, I wonder if Vadrok was intended to work with cycling spells prominent in Jeskai color in this set. Cycle them for cards and other synergy, recast them with Vadrok, and occasionally save him with Astral Slide effect, separating the stack to an army, save them with Evacuation, re-mutate later. Does it sound more interesting?

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6360
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
4 years ago
True. Come to think of it, I wonder if Vadrok was intended to work with cycling spells prominent in Jeskai color in this set. Cycle them for cards and other synergy, recast them with Vadrok, and occasionally save him with Astral Slide effect, separating the stack to an army, save them with Evacuation, re-mutate later. Does it sound more interesting?
I do think that he'll be more interesting in the parasitic context of mutate, where you might have other mutate creatures to mutate onto him to reuse your dead cycling and mutate cards.

Sadly, that's not going to be anywhere near efficient enough for most commander pods. At lower power level, sure.

I think there's probably a market for commander decks that are playing primarily from the pool of cards for a not-quite-deep-enough parasitic mechanic. Stuff like energy, mutate, previously morph, and cycling perhaps?

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

I really hope I end up proving you wrong @pokken. I see your points, and they are all valid, but I'm viewing Vadrok as a reliable combo piece for the list I'm drafting up. It's not like Ephara, or something like Gonti, Lord of Luxury, where you have to do the "dance" every turn to get your etb triggers. I think it's going to play more like, get the yard full, get some card draw going, mutate and bounce for some lower power value plays, then once everything's ready, one final mutate/bounce turn to fire off a combo.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6360
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
I really hope I end up proving you wrong pokken. I see your points, and they are all valid, but I'm viewing Vadrok as a reliable combo piece for the list I'm drafting up. It's not like Ephara, or something like Gonti, Lord of Luxury, where you have to do the "dance" every turn to get your etb triggers. I think it's going to play more like, get the yard full, get some card draw going, mutate and bounce for some lower power value plays, then once everything's ready, one final mutate/bounce turn to fire off a combo.
It's a lot easier to sit on the sidelines saying something won't work than to do it :) I'm definitely rooting for you.

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 843
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
I really hope I end up proving you wrong pokken. I see your points, and they are all valid, but I'm viewing Vadrok as a reliable combo piece for the list I'm drafting up. It's not like Ephara, or something like Gonti, Lord of Luxury, where you have to do the "dance" every turn to get your etb triggers. I think it's going to play more like, get the yard full, get some card draw going, mutate and bounce for some lower power value plays, then once everything's ready, one final mutate/bounce turn to fire off a combo.
What do you think about the cycling approach for Vadrok? It's not the same as your initial take, though Ikoria had provided a LOT of cycling support.

EDIT: There's a Vadrok deck on tappedout by Daedalus19876. His approach is to go Voltron with U/R's draw/discard options. Similar to the cycling idea I proposed, he uses Faithless Looting type cards to drop equipment and control spells into graveyard, fill his hand first then "reanimate" the dead cards with mutate effects for later.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
4 years ago
MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
I really hope I end up proving you wrong pokken. I see your points, and they are all valid, but I'm viewing Vadrok as a reliable combo piece for the list I'm drafting up. It's not like Ephara, or something like Gonti, Lord of Luxury, where you have to do the "dance" every turn to get your etb triggers. I think it's going to play more like, get the yard full, get some card draw going, mutate and bounce for some lower power value plays, then once everything's ready, one final mutate/bounce turn to fire off a combo.
What do you think about the cycling approach for Vadrok? It's not the same as your initial take, though Ikoria had provided a LOT of cycling support.
I'm sure it's doable. I'm not in the market for it since I already have a cycling deck with Bruse/Kraum, and the Gavi precon will be another, although I will take that apart soon enough. The issue I think Vadrok cycling will present is that some of the big cycling payoffs with Astral Slide, Astral Drift, and now Escape Protocol, are Flickers and mutate needs either more mutate, or Unsummon -- whether it's stapled to the creature like @darrenhabib advocated, attached to other creatures like I proposed, or the various unsummon instants.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 843
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
Cyberium wrote:
4 years ago

What do you think about the cycling approach for Vadrok? It's not the same as your initial take, though Ikoria had provided a LOT of cycling support.
I'm sure it's doable. I'm not in the market for it since I already have a cycling deck with Bruse/Kraum, and the Gavi precon will be another, although I will take that apart soon enough. The issue I think Vadrok cycling will present is that some of the big cycling payoffs with Astral Slide, Astral Drift, and now Escape Protocol, are Flickers and mutate needs either more mutate, or Unsummon -- whether it's stapled to the creature like darrenhabib advocated, attached to other creatures like I proposed, or the various unsummon instants.
There are also creatures that could self-bounce, which Darren mentioned a few in his post. A mix of self-bounce/protect creatures and EtB effect creatures would diversify your tactic according to situation, I find that appealing, even if it's not top tier competitive.

ilovesaprolings
Posts: 1030
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by ilovesaprolings » 4 years ago

How much mutate effect do you plan to use?

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
4 years ago
How much mutate effect do you plan to use?
Personally, I am going to build with very little mutate. Probably just Vadrok and bounce stuff. Pokken is absolutely right that it is a parasitic mechanic until they print more of it in a future set, and that's not guaranteed by any means.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6360
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 4 years ago

There are probly a couple decent mutaters that're worth playing, I haven't looked at the whole list closely. The pollywog symbiote at least I think is nice.

seadasher octopus is reallyt he only one I think is ok:P oof

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

Yeah, mutate itself is pretty underwhelming, in Jeskai colors at least. That's why I'm going to lean my build into mutating pretty much just with Vadrok.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1834
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
Yeah, mutate itself is pretty underwhelming, in Jeskai colors at least. That's why I'm going to lean my build into mutating pretty much just with Vadrok.
I mean when I saw the mechanic first spoiled I thought it was pretty jank. I was really expecting/hoping a more competitive mechanic for the set.
But I had a tiny bit of reservation waiting for everything to be spoiled in the hopes of some type of revelation.

Now that we've really broken down what can be done, it remains a jank mechanic as I first thought.

I shouldn't complain, you can't keep upping the ante every set, otherwise you've got nowhere to go in the future.
But at the same time Kaiju are my thing, and I was really looking forward to a competitive set of monsters I could play. Ah well.

yeti1069
Posts: 1196
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

Did you ever put this together? How did it run?

I play a Vadrok deck in Brawl on Arena and really enjoy it, but there are SO MANY directions this could go in EDH, it's pretty overwhelming. Then every time I start to brew something, it looks like a clunky mess, and seems like it's trying to jump through too many hoops to do anything, let alone win.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

@yeti1069 I did, but quite differently from what I originally brainstormed here. You can find the decklist in my sig.

Unfortunately, I've only played it a few times, though I really dig the concept and might tune it up real pretty eventually. The couple wins I scratched together with it were usually with Vadrok/Lore Drakkis/Stitch in Time loops.

The other heavy lifters in the deck are the 3 cmc clone effects that allow me to really pile on the mutate triggers over and over while dodging the legend rule by never having Vadrok on the top of the mutate pile. These are Cackling Counterpart, Quasiduplicate, and Fated Infatuation, which leave a token past the end of turn unlike something like Heat Shimmer or Twinflame.

Combining one of those with a bounce dude like Grinning Ignus or Skywing Aven is good times.

EDIT: I just realized the decklist in my signature isn't fully updated to reflect that I jostled some things around in the list to include the clone effects and Grinning Ignus. If you peruse the thread you'll see some good discussion about all that stuff. As far as the list itself, I went the Boros Reckoner tribal route with infinite damage combos to burn the table out. Convoluted, silly, and fun.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Commander”