The 5 new C20 commanders

[ilovesaprolings]

Since this spoilers will be superfast, i don't think the new cards thread will be enough to hold interesting and not messy discussions. So i think we should split the important cards into other threads.
This one is for "official" C20 commander:
Otrimi, the Ever-Playful, Jirina Kudro, Kathril, Aspect Warper, Kalamax, the Stormsire and Gavi, Nest Warden.

So, let's start!
Otrimi, the Ever-Playful: the one i'm liking the most. I really want to play a mutate deck. I'd rather play abzan rather than sultai, but probably i won't be able too. Otrimi adress mutate's biggest weakness: removals. Multiple disentomb on a undercosted 6/6 trample is rather nice. The fact that it's not a lizard ikrs me.

Jirina Kudro: look, wizard corrected the Prossh mistake! I like Jirina. Weird funny name aside, it's perfect commander for a niche of decks that people tried to do many times (mardu tokens). It won't ever be a top commander... but that's a pro in my list

Kathril, Aspect Warper: the biggest disappointment ever. Rayami #2: dump thing into the graveyard and voltron. There is almost no reason to target other creatures with its ability. It doesn't interact with tokens or other cards that puts ability counters. I don't care about its power level, it will always lead to boring decks and boring games.

Kalamax, the Stormsire: this card is weird and i like it. The instant limitations forbids you from copying blatant thievery and other gross things like that. However, you can copy a lot of utility things like kill spells and brainstorms. You need to tap him, so you can either choose between attacking and voltroning, or giving some kind of T ability. Cool card that promotes interesting deckbuilding

Gavi, Nest Warden: personally, i don't like this card, but it's not bad. Cycling never interested me as an archetype and i don't think that 3/3 tokens is the right way to reward it. However, some people may like it.

So these cards are kinda underpowered compared to other to past commanders (most of). However, i like them and i think they will help players bring new types of deck into the format

EDIT: my ranking: Otrimi --> Kalamax --> Jirina = Gavi --> Kathril

[folding_music]

really happy to see 'em be less blatantly powerful than the Eldraine batch! i agree with how you've ranked them and think if i built any it'd be the temur one

[Cyberium]

Since this spoilers will be superfast, i don't think the new cards thread will be enough to hold interesting and not messy discussions. So i think we should split the important cards into other threads.
This one is for "official" C20 commander:
Otrimi, the Ever-Playful, Jirina Kudro, Kathril, Aspect Warper, Kalamax, the Stormsire and Gavi, Nest Warden.

So, let's start!
Otrimi, the Ever-Playful: the one i'm liking the most. I really want to play a mutate deck. I'd rather play abzan rather than sultai, but probably i won't be able too. Otrimi adress mutate's biggest weakness: removals. Multiple disentomb on a undercosted 6/6 trample is rather nice. The fact that it's not a lizard ikrs me.

Jirina Kudro: look, wizard corrected the Prossh mistake! I like Jirina. Weird funny name aside, it's perfect commander for a niche of decks that people tried to do many times (mardu tokens). It won't ever be a top commander... but that's a pro in my list

Kathril, Aspect Warper: the biggest disappointment ever. Rayami #2: dump thing into the graveyard and voltron. There is almost no reason to target other creatures with its ability. It doesn't interact with tokens or other cards that puts ability counters. I don't care about its power level, it will always lead to boring decks and boring games.

Kalamax, the Stormsire: this card is weird and i like it. The instant limitations forbids you from copying blatant thievery and other gross things like that. However, you can copy a lot of utility things like kill spells and brainstorms. You need to tap him, so you can either choose between attacking and voltroning, or giving some kind of T ability. Cool card that promotes interesting deckbuilding

Gavi, Nest Warden: personally, i don't like this card, but it's not bad. Cycling never interested me as an archetype and i don't think that 3/3 tokens is the right way to reward it. However, some people may like it.

So these cards are kinda underpowered compared to other to past commanders (most of). However, i like them and i think they will help players bring new types of deck into the format

Otrimi - Good thing about mutate is that you can always be (in Otrimi's case) a 6/6 trampler with abilities, or you can add its ability to a flyer to avoid blocking completely. With double strike, you can retrieve even more creatures to beef up your rank or "exalts" Otrimi again.

Jirina - It suits Mardu, and plays into human decks, though many from Innistrad (green) cannot be used here. While not as combo-y as Prossh, it's more aggressive on the get-go.

Kathril - It doesn't exile creatures like Rayami and only works with your own grave, but Abzan has no lack of graveyard dumping in the past. I agree it has potential for boring deck building, but some appreciates the raw power of two-three shotting an opponent.

Kalamax - Temur style of beefy creatures helping spellslinging, just the way I like it. Since it operates on each turn, you can beef him up with Giant Growth on your turn while drawing tons of cards with usual blue draws. Hell, you might occasionally counter TWO spells at once in a group game.

Gavi - She makes 2/2, so I guess that's even less appealing to you, but they are DINOSAUR CATS, anything that buff either would buff her tokens.

My ranking of appeal: Kalamax → Otrimi → Gavi (cat deck) → Kathril → Jirina

[BeneTleilax]

I'll probably build Otromi or Gavi if any. Gavi looks like she could helm a decent Slide deck, and draw less hate than Zur. It'll depend on what other Cycling payoffs they print. Otromi is mechanically very solid, and mutate is probably my favorite mechanic of the bunch, but I don't like the trend he represents of more cartoony and childish cards that we've been seeing since at least Ixalan. I was never the guy to bash on squirrel decks, or cards that let themselves be silly. But lately it feels like they're going the opposite direction, forcing silly names and flavor on cards where it really doesn't fit. We've got a pretty nasty stax card called "Master of Pranks" and now a Nightmare that looks like a cereal mascot.

Also, I second that Kathril looks really obnoxious. Getting ganked by a hexproof indestructible lump is boring, locking someone's commander out of the game is boring. It seems like the worst of Voltron in EDH. Either it wins the same one-sided way, or it loses the same one-sided way, every game.

[Mimicvat]

So these cards are kinda underpowered compared to other to past commanders (most of). However, i like them and i think they will help players bring new types of deck into the format

Using old cards as a benchmark is the wrong way to go about it for commander imo. Its relevant for competitive formats. but here? Here I'm looking for powered down versions of some things, and for cards that do interesting stuff!

Otrimi, the Ever-Playful - love the flavour of a playful nightmare beast, and agree that this is a solid mutate commander. Mutate seems like the absolute timmy nuts and I'm looking forward to tinkering with it

Jirina Kudro - turbo meh. I feel like mardu often gets the short end of the stick in cycles like this, and Jirina does nothing to change that opinion. Boring anthem. Boring source of a few tokens. Overrepresented tribe that already has plenty of options. No appeal at all.

Kathril, Aspect Warper - This thing has the sickest art by far. Seems like instant concerted effort deck, which is great if thats what you are after but dull if you want to try something else. Probably won't be playing it myself.

Kalamax, the Stormsire - Its a different take on a highly represented archetype of "copy big spells". Seems very similar to Riku to the point where I think this card doesn't really need to exist. If I built it, maybe combat trick tribal?

Gavi, Nest Warden - this will make a good deck, but will it make an interesting deck? Will the different Gavi decks be notably different from one another? That I can't answer. Been wanting an astral slide deck for a while and this looks like a solid contender, but I'm sure thats pretty much what everyone is thinking.

[pokken]

I really like Kalamax. Might make some kinda instant + flicker tribal, with all the blue flicker effects, some instant-matters ETB guys and stuff that taps things e.g. earthcraft. Feels like two ghostly flickers per turn with an archaeomancer out for example would be pretty good.

Probably jam all the modal counterspells I can find like supreme will and remand.

narset's reversal was th eone I was thinking of, but also commit // memory. I think reversal is the only one that actually works like I was thinking tho

Honestly it has so much of a different feel from riku of two reflections that I don't mind it at all. The instant focus is really nice.

Lemme think, so:

I think remand just becomes 1U draw a card once a turn. You remand their spell, then remand your own remand which counters it. Kinda interesting. Triggers instant/sorcery effects once?

narset's reversal does seem to work? How does that even work:

Player 1 casts fact or fiction
I cast narset's reversal targeting targeting fact or fiction
copy triggers, making a narset's reversal that targets my own narset's reversal returning it to my hand and copying it.

The copy of narset's reversal then targets their fact or fiction

Herpaderp?

[darrenhabib]

Gavi, Nest Warden at the very least promises a bunch of cycling cards in the C20 deck, hopefully not all reprints. Missing out on Green here for Life from the Loam for cycling lands is a big miss.


Otrimi, the Ever-Playful best used with protection and/or evasion creatures. That is hexproof, indestructible, shroud;
Silhana Ledgewalker becomes a flagship for mutating this commander. Note that Invisible Stalker is a human, so can't be used.
Hexproof; Silhana Ledgewalker, Nightveil Predator, Prognostic Sphinx, Gladecover Scout, Slippery Bogle, Stormsurge Kraken, Troll Ascetic, Jungleborn Pioneer.
Shroud; Cephalid Inkshrouder, Hawkeater Moth, Nimble Mongoose.
His ability to return a mutate creature back to hand probably isn't all that powerful, but I'm sure there will be some cheap mechanics to get reusable value in some form.


Kalamax, the Stormsire is the most competitive. Lightning Bolt has never looked so good in a deck before.
This will be the commander I first brew around, mainly because already have enough information without needing more spoilers.


Jirina Kudro versus Edgar Markov. Humans versus Vampires.
Jirina Kudro ability to put 1/1 humans onto the battlefield is terrible. 0/10. The +2/+0 can put the pressure on if you've cast quite a few humans already, but as we all know small-ball aggression never wins. I've never lost to an Edgar Markov deck in something like versus 20 games. Not a feasible multiplayer strategy.


Kathril, Aspect Warper. The Gods are good for the indestructible portion. You could make a Gods centric deck in Abzan with this in mind.
Zetalpa, Primal Dawn of course being the flagship for packing abilities.
Pretty linear card, try and make it a fattie for Voltron. Hope the double strike gets you there.
Its possible that you aim the counters at utility creatures instead, but the fact that the +1/+1 get put on Kathril means that most of the time you are going to be looking to protect and buff him. Design fault.

[Hawk]

Generally speaking (pun intended): this is a huge correction from the last few releases - maybe an overcorrection, in that honestly these all seem super medium after the raw insanity of the Brawl-mmanders and the last few other releases. In color combo order:

Kathril, Aspect Warper: Great art, interesting ability, but frustrating in that it gives a choice of spreading the love, and that choice is a trap - it is almost always going to be correct to dump all those counters on Kathril itself and then murder everyone with your 11/11 Hexproof, Indestructible, Trample, Double Strike, Lifelink, Vigilance, Flying, Menace. Very similar to Rayami, First of the Fallen, and mostly worse in its differences - white is, on balance, a worse color than Blue; 4 CMC obviously beats 5 CMC; a 5/4 beats a 3/3. There are perks too - Kathril allows you to mill rather than needing stuff to die, which makes for more of a dredge/reanimator deck than a Aristocrat-style deck. But, Kathril can't gain abilities from opposing creatures, and he can't assimilate Protection or Haste, meaning you'll need to find boots to instant-kill. Kathril is probably better on first casting, but also more susceptible to graveyard hate wheras Rayami IS Graveyard Hate. And mostly it's boring in that when it works, it just one-shots people, and when it doesn't work, it's a horrific 5-mana do nothing commander. Color me unexcited, which is ultra disappointing since on first view it should be my jam - a commander that rewards Dredge and looking deep in your collection for nonsense like Darksteel Sentinel or Ramunap Hydra to maximize its ability gain. EDHREC Prediction: Will be lucky to crack 300 decks, and will do so almost entirely from the "Precon Bump" and as a guy to unseat Teneb as the GWB "fat reanimator" commander.

Gavi, Nest Warden - Long have I wanted a true Cycling commander. I am disappointed that she's the same colors as mah boy Sevinne, the Chronoclasm especially as the decks will have a similar durdling feel with a five mana commander who is purely there for abilities, and especially since Black would have been more powerful to be able to use Archfiend of Ifnir and Faith of the Devoted instead of classic Lightning Rift. I will almost certainly build her (cycling Commander who makes Cat Dinos!) and I think she's one of the better Commanders here, but I do fear her deck basically builds itself without a lot of variation or flavor. EDHREC Prediction: Around 400, chilling with Sevinne.

Otrimi, the Ever-Playful : Seeing a lot of love here and...I don't get it? The age of 6/6 rumblers for 6 as our commanders died years ago. Mutate is extremely dangerous in EDH - the mechanic has a bit of safety against removal in response blowing you out, but after that it is still basically an aura and you still get absolutely shredded by any removal spell. Mutate's wording means that we don't bypass Commander tax here either - the first mutate is four but that cost goes up, and this Ever-Playful lad isn't able to cheat it like Yuriko or Derevi. Oh, and our payoff here is...super parastic in that it only returns MUTATE creatures to our hand. I think the creepy-cute Dragapult knock-off has us all bamboozled; this guy is awful. EDHREC Prediction: It'll beat Vorosh and crack 100 - and I don't think it should, honestly, but precon with a neat mechanic will make it so. Best case scenario is 300 - this card is worse than Kestia, the Cultivator in almost every conceivable way and look how popular she is.


Jirina Kudro - Boring Commander is Boring. If you want human tribal...sure? She's also reasonable as part of a Soldier build. I don't have much to say about her; she's a fixed Prossh to prohibit combo and she won't ever infinite off of anything as a result so...yay? EDHREC Prediction: Despite all that, I think she'll crack 500. She's the first real Mardu option for Soldiers OR Humans. Mardu is an insanely popular color identity (Mathas and Licia are both over 600) and she's plenty strong and valuable. She's just super boring.

Kalamax, the Stormsire : Good thing there are hoops to jump through on this big stormy boi, because otherwise he'd be busted. As is, he's merely the best Commander in this crop of Commanders. Reasonable body + clear direction for what to do with him. Pretty wide open - you can do cantrip-mancy and get all that sick value off of Opt and Crimson Wisps and stuff! You can do Storm with Manamorphose and Pyretic Ritual and Frantic Search! Play hard control with infinite Remands backed by the raw destructive power of auto-forked Volcanic Offerings and Beast Withins! Build Temur Reclamation in Commander and go off with Nexus of Fate! Do silly little infinite spell copy nonsense with guildmages and rituals to voltron people out! Skies the limit. Having to have him tapped is a cost, for sure, but a 4/4 for four rumbles fine and if you don't wanna rumble with combat tricks you are in the right colors for Earthcraft and Opposition among many other effects. EDHREC Prediction: Definitely over 600. As the best commander here I wouldn't be surprised to seem him crack 1000.

[DirkGently]

First of all, let me say that I was 100% correct about the colors and I expect a hasty coronation to king of "I told you" town.

Not a feasible multiplayer strategy.

Is it top-tier? Obviously not. Is it feasible in a casual meta? Absolutely. I've rolled tables over with my Gallia deck, and that's just a fair aggro deck with a good curve and some extra value. It's not the most effective but it's a fun challenge.

Mind you I have no real interest in Jirina.

These mostly look surprisingly restrained to me, which I am totally ok with. Sick of the pushed stuff we get every year tbh. Every release I feel like I'm trying to rationalize "well...I guess it might not be TOTAL cancer to play against...at least you can remove it?"

Gavi seems WEIRDLY fair. A 2/5 for 5? Cycling is free ONCE per turn, but only does something when you cycle twice? And the reward is a token with no abilities? Um, ok. I guess it's useful with big cycling costs like decree of silence, so maybe there's some potential here? It looks so crap on the surface I'm kind of rooting for it tbh.

Kathril seems like a lot of setup. And I have to say Rayami wasn't super fun to play and I expect this will be the same. Meh. At least it can be disrupted via grave hate.

Kalamax is probably my favorite. So glad it's instants only. Screw sorceries and their doing powerful things. He looks pretty strong but hopefully not gross strong. The Temur control commander I always dreamed of? Guess we'll see.

Jirina, as mentioned, I find boring. Human tribal is just boring. Tribal is just boring. Magic is just boring. Whoops, went one step to far. Tribal is boring, though.

Otrimi, the ever-playful - boy they're really pushing mutate this set. I'm not sure I like it as a mechanic but hopefully I'll warm to it. Throwing this onto certain creatures seems pretty obnoxious (oh hi invisible stalker [EDIT: I'm dumb nevermind. Maybe blighted agent?]) but the saboteur ability seems...meh? I guess we'll have to see how many mutate cards are worth playing within those colors.

[darrenhabib]

Otrimi, the ever-playful - boy they're really pushing mutate this set. I'm not sure I like it as a mechanic but hopefully I'll warm to it. Throwing this onto certain creatures seems pretty obnoxious (oh hi invisible stalker) but the saboteur ability seems...meh? I guess we'll have to see how many mutate cards are worth playing within those colors.

Invisible Stalker is a human.

[DirkGently]

Otrimi, the ever-playful - boy they're really pushing mutate this set. I'm not sure I like it as a mechanic but hopefully I'll warm to it. Throwing this onto certain creatures seems pretty obnoxious (oh hi invisible stalker) but the saboteur ability seems...meh? I guess we'll have to see how many mutate cards are worth playing within those colors.

Invisible Stalker is a human.

Damn you, you were faster than my edit lol.

[Cyberium]

Gavi seems WEIRDLY fair. A 2/5 for 5? Cycling is free ONCE per turn, but only does something when you cycle twice?

If it's on your turn, you're pretty much guarantee a token (draw step + free cycling), and the second draw doesn't have to be from cycling, it could be Ephara, God of the Polis too. You can pack her with Eldraine "draw second card" effects and Jori En, Ruin Diver/Kraum, Ludevic's Opus to increase the number of second draw

[DirkGently]

If it's on your turn, you're pretty much guarantee a token (draw step + free cycling), and the second draw doesn't have to be from cycling, it could be Ephara, God of the Polis too. You can pack her with Eldraine "draw second card" effects and Jori En, Ruin Diver/Kraum, Ludevic's Opus to increase the number of second draw

Whoops, misread that too, I thought it was second time you cycle. I had a late night last night, I'm tired lol.

Still seems like sort of a random payoff to me. But I'm kind of crossing fingers that it ends up being a decent commander.

[UnfulfilledDesires]

Cold-Eyed Selkie strikes me as the best thing to do with Otrimi, & that can easily happen on turn three via a dork. Needle Specter & Cephalid Constable are also amazing if you want to be a touch mean.

Apart from Kathril, I like all of these new commanders well enough, though I'm not inclined to build any at present. Gavi, Nest Warden goes into my Jodah, Archmage Eternal cycling deck that's getting a big boost from Ikoria. Kalamax appeals to me the most, as I love copying spells & it's another way to actually accomplish something by forking a fork.

[DirkGently]

...its another way to actually accomplish something by forking a fork.

...and just like that, my interest in kalamax dried up like a raisin in the sun.

[Cyberium]

...its another way to actually accomplish something by forking a fork.

...and just like that, my interest in kalamax dried up like a raisin in the sun.

Remember when internet discussion on EDH decks was a rare thing? XD People are already talking about how Illuna would exile your library for the typical Lab/Oracle win.

You can always build Kalamax with vehicles? Dino Power Ranger is the name, I'd think.

[DirkGently]

Remember when internet discussion on EDH decks was a rare thing? XD People are already talking about how Illuna would exile your library for the typical Lab/Oracle win.

You can always build Kalamax with vehicles? Dino Power Ranger is the name, I'd think.

So you need to tutor one of those first, and you can't run the other one? And you can't play black? In exchange for a very fragile and kinda hard to set up replacement for a 1-mana instant? Sounds both boring and terrible.

When I saw Illuna I was thinking most likely omniscience as the only nonland permanent. That sounds "fun". But honestly given how easy it'd be to interact with (plus you might exile your wincon) I doubt it'd be very good in a competitive sense.

Idk, kalamax still might be ok. To give him infinite power, you'd either need two forks or he'd need to be tapped while you cast a sorcery, so it's tough to swing in for surprise infinite damage. And even then, he doesn't have evasion so it's not THAT bad.

[DirkGently]

Just realized that the real plan for Gavi is decree of annihilation. On 5 mana, after ramping out with artifacts, play Gavi, immediately destroy all lands, make a 2/2, and you have a way to cheat on costs and make tokens for free. Grrrrross.

I mean, that's basically all there is since the other cards that do triggers when cycled are pretty tame. I guess we'll see when the spoilers are done, I assume there'll be more stuff.

[Mimicvat]

Lol thats disgusting! Friend of mine has challenged me to build land-D, and I'm a huge fan of astral slide, so maybe that commander has potential...

I'm excited for some of the mutate creatures, but more the ones from Ikoria than the ones from C20. Supposedly a mutant containing a commander anywhere in the pile deals commander damage. Giving some fatty double strike and commander damage is pretty gross, at least by the standards of that strategy.

[darrenhabib]

Kalamax appeals to me the most, as I love copying spells & it's another way to actually accomplish something by forking a fork.

Hey, can you explain how exactly copying a copy spell works?

[DirkGently]

Hey, can you explain how exactly copying a copy spell works?

I'd assume the standard line of play would be, get him tapped (via combat or vehicles or whatever), then cast a sorcery, then cast fork which will put the copy ability on the stack on top of the fork, which is on top of the sorcery. Trigger resolves creating another fork. this triggers the second ability and gives him a counter
You use the copy to target the original fork, copying it and choosing the original fork again with the target. That triggers his second ability and gives him another counter. So on and so forth. Eventually the target copies the original sorcery to end the loop, and your commander has unlimited +1 counters on him.

[ilovesaprolings]

Otrimi, the Ever-Playful : this card is worse than Kestia, the Cultivator in almost every conceivable way and look how popular she is.

I don't get this comparison at all. Otrimi cost only 4 to mutate. Kestia cost 6 to bestow. Also, the bestowed creature doesn't deal commander damage, while the mutate one does.

[PrimevalCommander]

Kalamax interests me the most. I have been looking for a more interesting replacement for Riku of Two Reflections for years. Riku was always too mana hungry to do much, and my only win-con was casting broken sorceries. This has an interesting restriction and incentivizes combat or other tap synergies, which is cool. I will try to get a copy and do some brewing. I really want a RUG commander that isn't super linear like Omnath or obnoxiously powerful like Malestrome Wanderer.

[SecretInfiltrator]

Kathril, Aspect Warper: the biggest disappointment ever. Rayami #2: dump thing into the graveyard and voltron. There is almost no reason to target other creatures with its ability. It doesn't interact with tokens or other cards that puts ability counters. I don't care about its power level, it will always lead to boring decks and boring games.

I would like to see this card with subtle wording changes like "another" here or there. While originally reading the card I almost thought the end would be "put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you put a counter on this way" to actually encourage spreading the love. I don't feel too enticed by this. The cut-throat play is too obvious.

[ilovesaprolings]

I would like to see this card with subtle wording changes like "another" here or there. While originally reading the card I almost thought the end would be "put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you put a counter on this way" to actually encourage spreading the love. I don't feel too enticed by this. The cut-throat play is too obvious.

I really despise the card because it's basically a trap. It gives you a lot of option but in reality these options will never be optimal.