Most fun commanders/decks to play against

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

As much fun as it is to score argument points with hypothetical banding atraxa lists, when someone is looking for a list of "fun commanders to play against", they're probably looking for a direction to start in that will lead them somewhere fun for their opponents. Atraxa can theoretically be used that way, but it's not most people's inclination while building her. Whereas K+T tends to be built in a way that many people (not myself, but many people apparently) enjoy playing against. That's what people (myself included) are interested in.
Airi wrote:
4 years ago
And that's fair of you to like that! I do not, I will actively remove things like hug (in the blanket sense, not in the actual dedicated group hug sense) or chaos with prejudice until I'm absolutely forced to deal with something/someone else instead. It just... isn't fun to me. I don't know if I can properly articulate why. But I don't like the 2v1 feeling it gives, and given that I mostly play aggro-style decks, my answer to that is to just kill it at its source.
Games are always going to become 2(+)v1, simply because once one player is threatening, the other players have a motivation to work together to mitigate that threat. That doesn't stop being true without cards that benefit an opponent(s) - it just means other methods are used, such as everyone aiming their answers at the threat. I can understand disliking certain cards or strategies, but not liking the "2v1 feeling" to me seems tantamount to not liking multiplayer at all.

I mean, the only alternative I can think of is everyone playing zero-answer combo decks and goldfishing to see who gets there first.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Airi
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Post by Airi » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
I can understand disliking certain cards or strategies, but not liking the "2v1 feeling" to me seems tantamount to not liking multiplayer at all.
It's not some zero sum thing, Dirk. There is a difference between a player drawing cards because they were hit with an Oblation, than if they drew cards because of something like Intellectual Offering. Or a wheel, which can help people but also can force players to flush out cards they have been tutoring or holding on to, versus Minds Aglow. Yes, people will occasionally work together. Two people might attack the same person for being a threat. Someone might remove something that is a threat to both players, but not the third. That is not the same as giving someone additional resources at no disadvantage to the receiving player's board state to me, and that is the thing I don't enjoy.

I do understand why other people find it fun. I understand why they make lists like this. But I find it utterly infuriating. Particularly when someone who is not the hug player wins off of the resources they were handed, where they otherwise would not have been able to do so. Its fine for you to think that's a silly distinction from me as well, I get it. It's not exactly a feeling rooted in logical thought, but it is tied to my own perception of fun, which is kind of the point of this thread.

Edit: Because I know the specific cards I mentioned are likely to get picked apart, they're examples. I get that not all Phelddigref decks embrace full on hug, it's more an example of why I find one style of card okay, and not the other.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Airi wrote:
4 years ago
It's not some zero sum thing, Dirk.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

To clarify what I was saying earlier, since only one player can ultimately win, Magic is inherently a zero-sum game - insofar as every play is going to be to the benefit of some players and detriment of some others. Contrary to what group hug players might think, no play can benefit all players.
There is a difference between a player drawing cards because they were hit with an Oblation, than if they drew cards because of something like Intellectual Offering. Or a wheel, which can help people but also can force players to flush out cards they have been tutoring or holding on to, versus Minds Aglow. Yes, people will occasionally work together. Two people might attack the same person for being a threat. Someone might remove something that is a threat to both players, but not the third. That is not the same as giving someone additional resources at no disadvantage to the receiving player's board state to me, and that is the thing I don't enjoy.
Since you don't want to me pick apart your examples, I'll make my own example:

P1 is the threat and P2 and P3 know they need to work against them. P1 attacks P2. P3 then does one of the following two things:

1) kills the attacking creature with removal
2) gives P2 a token, which P2 uses to block and trade with the attacking creature

These two things have the same result in the end. You're allowed to be ok with the first but not the second - I just want to clarify what it is that matters to you, fun-wise.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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folding_music
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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

I think Braids, Cabal Minion and Braids, Conjurer Adept are equally entertaining! There are certain legendary creatures which just seem crazy OP to me, like Atraxa and like Kenrith and like Muldrotha and so forth, but I think that because of what the card itself says rather than because of the deck it assembles around itself. They're just too good, but you should continue to play them cos I'll get over it. Nowadays I run enough interaction that I can survive long enough to see what the second wave of your 75% deck can do, even if I'm unlikely to beat it!

I think all the commanders named in the opening post are fun to play against! I really, really like Thantis in particular because groups I've played in have had trouble making the first attack and Thantis absolves everyone of blame, plus I generally like card effects which add a rule to the game for variety's sake; the way it forces everyone to think of a new strategy and get out of the goldfishing mindset is beautiful to me. In the same vein, I always love to play against gimmick decks like Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, Hallar, the Fire-fletcher, Sliver Queen and so forth because you get to see a greater breadth of cards and also think twice about the ones you're running in uncommon scenarios.

I seem to pick commanders based on how I feel about the colour. When I see white/red I don't think "Tajic!" so much as think of my favourite cards in the pair, think of Kjeldoran Outpost and Castle Ardenvale and Kher Keep and go, which commander is gonna reward me for playing more than the average amount of land, and which will let me live to turn one hundred so I can play all the best lands ever? Maybe always being able to play Brion Stoutarm on turn four would be solid cos he gains me life? Maybe Firesong and Sunspeaker want me to build an X-spell deck, or maybe Tiana, Ship's Caretaker would lead to a more reliable strategy that spent all its mana each turn? and what are my favourite equipments and utility creatures anyway? All I can do is hope the opponent is fine with that approach. I don't mind being a synergy-first player's punching bag once or twice but I don't at all agree with the comments I've seen going around to the tune of "If you don't build your deck as cut-throat as possible you're doing a disservice to your opponents!" Makes me wonder what happened to using the game's incredible variety as an avenue to self-expression!

(I did find myself developing a distaste for heavy tutoring, because it leads to artificial synergy and shorter games and I like long unpredictable games and getting down to a top-deck situation. You just can't run yr pet cards against these decks which are always on, unless your pet cards are all Swords to Plowshares variants. I posted a few slightly bitter comments on this forum on the subject and now feel silly about it, hee.

I think that, just as in other games and sports, just as in art, literature, food and music, when you get heavily enough into the scene you might make the mistake of developing a set of pet hates for totally innocuous tendencies other people in the scene have. try not to value yr preferences and principles above someone else's equally valid take on enjoying themselves.)

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Airi
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Post by Airi » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?
My dislike of a specific aspect of multiplayer is not tantamount to my dislike of multiplayer as a whole. Just because I don't like that specific form of play, doesn't mean I hate this format and find it unfun, and I'm not sure how you're drawing lines from my personal dislike of that style of play to me just not liking the game. I'm not talking about magic being zero sum, I'm talking about how it is possible to dislike specific aspects of cards.
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
These two things have the same result in the end. You're allowed to be ok with the first but not the second - I just want to clarify what it is that matters to you, fun-wise.
I don't particularly like either though. I do accept that they're going to happen, and very occasional hug effects do not ruffle my feathers the same way that someone building a deck around them does. Why? Because it isn't a constant strategy. In a similar vein, I do not mind the occasional chaos effect whereas I absolutely do not want to play against a deck that regularly utilizes it as a strategy. Or how many people might not mind a few stax effects on occasion, but do not want to play against decks built around stax.

Lets take your example, is P3 able to regularly give tokens? If they are, they're probably not going to do it just to make sure the token trades at dies. So, now we get in to a more direct form of collusion. P3 starts offering things in order to resolve or protect their own board. That is a social aspect I don't find particularly fun. In small doses? It's whatever. We all do it on occasion. When someone makes it a facet of how their deck operates, that's where it stops being fun to me. When your entire general and game plan is built around that concept? I'm going to remove you and you are now priority #1, in the same way I'm going to remove someone for constantly using their removal to defend other players. I don't run a lot of heavy counter magic, so my options are to just knock you out of the game to minimize the amount of damage that will happen to my opponents gaining resources they didn't set up themselves. Part of my feelings on this are that I'm not going to negotiate for resources, so a lot of times that sort of thing is aimed at me.

Does that make me biased? Sure, we all are. I'm not trying to prevent the people I play with from building decks that do play like that, there are a few people in my group who do to varying degrees of "I'm hugging my way to my own victory" to "I'm just gonna kingmake, screw you all". I've taken apart decks that have operated in a similar manor because I don't want to be that player. But just because I don't find anything wrong with people playing that way, doesn't mean that I'm going to rate that type of general as a fun experience, because it just isn't.

Your Phelddagrif deck I wouldn't find particularly egregious, it's just a control deck. But also, that doesn't make Pheldagriff itself a fun general to see hit the field, because now I'm going to have to deal with people getting cards, life, or tokens that they otherwise wouldn't have in addition to whatever they're doing on their own, so now it's my target for removing it.

I don't really know how to explain my stance better than that.

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Rumpy5897
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Guess this exchange solidifies how subjective the perception of the format can be, indirectly implying just how great finding a matching group is. Re-reading my initial post, I keep ragging on wipes. I don't find the take on the format where stuff perpetually dies fun at all, but there are some people who live for that stuff. A guy from my old group who I stopped regularly seeing in 2017 appears to have pursued this path with his Mim deck, which would ramp, draw, blow stuff up, rinse, repeat. Somehow grind out a bit of advantage each go round. I stopped dabbling in the local playgroup here when there was a three-hour, 10+ wipe game. That's not my jam, but apparently it is what other people seem to like :P
 
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DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Airi wrote:
4 years ago
I don't really know how to explain my stance better than that.
I think I understand what you're saying, even if I personally disagree. Thanks for taking the time!
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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