Shuffling a hundred cards
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- darrenhabib
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: 4 years ago
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I was playing with my friends decks last night and this happened.
I had Flash + Protean Hulk in my starter, which I won on Turn 2, and the very next game I had Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin (with Mana Crypt) and again won on Turn 2.
My point is that I feel like these two card combos simply got stuck together in the scooping up after games and that statistically as such are more likely to appear together during games, unless of course you spend an amazing amount of time shuffling.
Shuffling a hundred cards is a pain. I hate it. As such the thoroughness and motivation of shuffling diminishes for me as the night goes on.
How thorough do you find yourself shuffling decks? Do you see the problem that combos get shuffled along together more than they should?
I had Flash + Protean Hulk in my starter, which I won on Turn 2, and the very next game I had Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin (with Mana Crypt) and again won on Turn 2.
My point is that I feel like these two card combos simply got stuck together in the scooping up after games and that statistically as such are more likely to appear together during games, unless of course you spend an amazing amount of time shuffling.
Shuffling a hundred cards is a pain. I hate it. As such the thoroughness and motivation of shuffling diminishes for me as the night goes on.
How thorough do you find yourself shuffling decks? Do you see the problem that combos get shuffled along together more than they should?
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DirkGently My wins are unconditional
- Posts: 4536
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I've got big ol' hands, so I've got no problems shuffling 100 cards. I can't understand people that double sleeve, though. I'll single-sleeve my tabernacle 'til the day I die.
Something worth talking about, that no one really talks about, is functional randomness vs true randomness. One of the funniest things I've seen online is people complaining about the MTGO/arena shuffler, complaining that it gave them mana flood or screw or whatever. It is an interesting problem to create randomness in a computer - the method generally used it to use the very high-precision digits on the clock which go by so quickly that picking any given instant is essentially random, even at the high speeds a shuffling algorithm is going to work at. Hopefully. But it's theoretically possible that the shuffler isn't truly, truly random, and given enough information there might be a way to predict some sort of pattern within it.
That said...it's very unlikely to be anything related to something we, as humans, would care about, like the number of lands in your opening hand, or how many lands are being stacked in a row, or nonlands in a row, or whatever. So maybe the shuffler isn't truly truly TRULY random, but it's certainly close enough to be functionally random. It's not going to generate results that would be detectably non-random to someone just playing the game. Because it almost certainly doesn't care about lands vs nonlands, or creatures vs instants, or anything else that might matter and be noticeable to a person.
I'm saying this because, while shuffling a stack of cards is also pretty hard to make truly random, it's much easier to make it functionally random. One thing that can happen pretty easily is for cards to get stuck together, especially if you're not doing a perfect Faro shuffle every time (or if you're using grimy non-matte sleeves like me). That's why I'll often take the cards I played in a game and fan them into the deck when I'm done, so they're reasonably split apart before I even start shuffling. If you've got a combo, just put each piece into the deck separately. If they end up together again later, then that's XCOMrandomness, baby!
If the whole deck is at risk - for example, you've just built it and they're all sorted out - I tend to go ahead and give it a pile shuffle to start. A lot of very serious players will tell you that this isn't a good shuffling method because it's not truly random, and that's certainly true, but true randomness is overrated anyway. We just need it to be random enough that there aren't any distinguishable patterns. If you start with a pile shuffle - before you give it some normal shuffling - that'll give you a good starting point where there isn't any particular significance to any cards touching each other.
Something worth talking about, that no one really talks about, is functional randomness vs true randomness. One of the funniest things I've seen online is people complaining about the MTGO/arena shuffler, complaining that it gave them mana flood or screw or whatever. It is an interesting problem to create randomness in a computer - the method generally used it to use the very high-precision digits on the clock which go by so quickly that picking any given instant is essentially random, even at the high speeds a shuffling algorithm is going to work at. Hopefully. But it's theoretically possible that the shuffler isn't truly, truly random, and given enough information there might be a way to predict some sort of pattern within it.
That said...it's very unlikely to be anything related to something we, as humans, would care about, like the number of lands in your opening hand, or how many lands are being stacked in a row, or nonlands in a row, or whatever. So maybe the shuffler isn't truly truly TRULY random, but it's certainly close enough to be functionally random. It's not going to generate results that would be detectably non-random to someone just playing the game. Because it almost certainly doesn't care about lands vs nonlands, or creatures vs instants, or anything else that might matter and be noticeable to a person.
I'm saying this because, while shuffling a stack of cards is also pretty hard to make truly random, it's much easier to make it functionally random. One thing that can happen pretty easily is for cards to get stuck together, especially if you're not doing a perfect Faro shuffle every time (or if you're using grimy non-matte sleeves like me). That's why I'll often take the cards I played in a game and fan them into the deck when I'm done, so they're reasonably split apart before I even start shuffling. If you've got a combo, just put each piece into the deck separately. If they end up together again later, then that's XCOMrandomness, baby!
If the whole deck is at risk - for example, you've just built it and they're all sorted out - I tend to go ahead and give it a pile shuffle to start. A lot of very serious players will tell you that this isn't a good shuffling method because it's not truly random, and that's certainly true, but true randomness is overrated anyway. We just need it to be random enough that there aren't any distinguishable patterns. If you start with a pile shuffle - before you give it some normal shuffling - that'll give you a good starting point where there isn't any particular significance to any cards touching each other.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
After a game I tend to do the following:
- Shuffle my graveyard and my exile
- Shuffle in my hand
- Shuffle in my board
- Shuffle all that into my deck
- Shuffle my deck a bunch
I don't usually pile shuffle, but that is something I do for limited and I find it helps a lot. But keep in mind that you still need to do a few shuffles after pile shuffling because you can know where cards are in the deck (by using math).
If you can't shuffle the full 100 cards, you can take half the deck, shuffle vigorously, Shuffle the other half vigorously. then take half from each pile and shuffle those together. Shuffle the other halves.
I also like the idea of fanning out your board into the deck before you start shuffling.
I think it is worth spending time to make sure that you don't draw the same cards again.
- Shuffle my graveyard and my exile
- Shuffle in my hand
- Shuffle in my board
- Shuffle all that into my deck
- Shuffle my deck a bunch
I don't usually pile shuffle, but that is something I do for limited and I find it helps a lot. But keep in mind that you still need to do a few shuffles after pile shuffling because you can know where cards are in the deck (by using math).
If you can't shuffle the full 100 cards, you can take half the deck, shuffle vigorously, Shuffle the other half vigorously. then take half from each pile and shuffle those together. Shuffle the other halves.
I also like the idea of fanning out your board into the deck before you start shuffling.
I think it is worth spending time to make sure that you don't draw the same cards again.
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme
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folding_music glitter pen on my mana crypt
- Posts: 2236
- Joined: 4 years ago
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I try to use a sleeve with an asymmetrical image or some other means of THIS WAY UP so you can't mess up. then I take two thirds of the deck, stuff/interleave shuffle it a few times, swap the top half of the pile for the remaining third, and repeat, for a long time. my hands are small and it's boring and it's at least half of the reason why I don't run anything that reshuffles the deck!
If I ever designed a game to be played on physical cards it would not involve shuffling once the game has begun.
If I ever designed a game to be played on physical cards it would not involve shuffling once the game has begun.
I also do the 2/3rds method, and then awkwardly shuffle the whole thing together a few times. Unfortunately for me, having a double sleeved deck along with tiny hands is a bad mix.
If I've separated my deck out to make updates, or after a game where I may have dumped a decent number of cards in to play so that they're grouped up by permanent type, I'll always pile shuffle afterwards, and then shuffle it all back together a few times just to mix it back up a bit.
If I've separated my deck out to make updates, or after a game where I may have dumped a decent number of cards in to play so that they're grouped up by permanent type, I'll always pile shuffle afterwards, and then shuffle it all back together a few times just to mix it back up a bit.
Big hands; I have the Giant (or at least Ogre) subtype irl.
I find it doesn't come up. The specific scenario you've mentioned is combo-oriented, and I don't typically play combo, or have specific card pairs that are overwhelmingly strong.
The only time it comes up is in my extremely ramp-heavy decks, where clumps of lands end up together (but, even then, it's not bad).
I find it doesn't come up. The specific scenario you've mentioned is combo-oriented, and I don't typically play combo, or have specific card pairs that are overwhelmingly strong.
The only time it comes up is in my extremely ramp-heavy decks, where clumps of lands end up together (but, even then, it's not bad).
The inability of most people to shuffle properly is my main reason for remaining a strong proponent of 80 card decks
I find most people do not sufficiently randomize their decks. A good third of people I run across always have hideous clumps of previously adjacent cards because they only faro shuffle, thinking this is equivalent with mash.
I do not see these clumps because I mash shuffle sufficiently. But this does take time. My nickname in our community is shuffles
I find most people do not sufficiently randomize their decks. A good third of people I run across always have hideous clumps of previously adjacent cards because they only faro shuffle, thinking this is equivalent with mash.
I do not see these clumps because I mash shuffle sufficiently. But this does take time. My nickname in our community is shuffles
- toctheyounger
- Posts: 3984
- Joined: 4 years ago
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- Location: Auckland, New Zealand
I'm tiny. 5'4" at a squint with relatively small hands. I'm the tallest person in my family too. I'm strong for my size but that's beside the point, my hands are pretty small, which makes shuffling (and playing my chosen instrument, bass) relatively tough. It's pretty common for my wife to get sick of waiting for me to shuffle.
Usually I'll do a couple of good half-deck shuffles or 2/3 shuffles, then 1-2 mash shuffles with the whole lot. It usually works fine.
There's no way I could double sleeve my decks, I'd never get a game in, even though there are some I ought to - Nissa flips, so switching her active side gets laborious.
Mechanics of shuffling aside randomness is a funny thing. I've also seen a ton of people online complaining about RNG's online. Thing is though with shuffling/randomness, it's entirely possible, however unlikely, that your deck ends up sorted alphabetically, by type, or some other variation. Just because you got a bad starting hand doesn't mean it wasn't a random shuffle.
I've also had similar experience as Darren recently though. It's really common for The Gitrog Monster and Life From the Loam to crop up in my starting hand for Korvold of late. I try my best to shuffle well to avoid accusations and stop this from happening, but it just happens.
Usually I'll do a couple of good half-deck shuffles or 2/3 shuffles, then 1-2 mash shuffles with the whole lot. It usually works fine.
There's no way I could double sleeve my decks, I'd never get a game in, even though there are some I ought to - Nissa flips, so switching her active side gets laborious.
Mechanics of shuffling aside randomness is a funny thing. I've also seen a ton of people online complaining about RNG's online. Thing is though with shuffling/randomness, it's entirely possible, however unlikely, that your deck ends up sorted alphabetically, by type, or some other variation. Just because you got a bad starting hand doesn't mean it wasn't a random shuffle.
I've also had similar experience as Darren recently though. It's really common for The Gitrog Monster and Life From the Loam to crop up in my starting hand for Korvold of late. I try my best to shuffle well to avoid accusations and stop this from happening, but it just happens.
Riffle shuffle seven times.
After a game I pile shuffle (five piles alternating: land, creature, non-land/non-creature), riffle shuffle the piles, then riffle shuffle that with the deck seven times. I bridge after each riffle to clear the cascade and balance any bends. Works with or without sleeves. With practice, you don't need much bend at all for either the riffle or the bridge.
That said, I've been riffle shuffling with a bridge for nearly 40 years (started playing pinochle and euchre around age 7-8).
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The Gilbert–Shannon–Reeds model provides a mathematical model of the random outcomes of riffling, that has been shown experimentally to be a good fit to human shuffling and that forms the basis for a recommendation that card decks be riffled seven times in order to randomize them thoroughly
That said, I've been riffle shuffling with a bridge for nearly 40 years (started playing pinochle and euchre around age 7-8).
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Treamayne
Treamayne
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- Posts: 114
- Joined: 4 years ago
- Pronoun: Unlisted
I gotta say that i've never given it too much thought. In general, i riffle shuffle some number of times (i don't count), and then i let my opponent(s) shuffle. Most of the time, they just cut it once.
I dont think i've ever had the pleasure of having 2 2-card combos in the opener 2 games in a row though. But it's only a matter of time that it'd occur.
I believe theres a rule in the official rules that says that you have to be able to shuffle your own deck. Does anyone actually enforce that rule?
I dont think i've ever had the pleasure of having 2 2-card combos in the opener 2 games in a row though. But it's only a matter of time that it'd occur.
I believe theres a rule in the official rules that says that you have to be able to shuffle your own deck. Does anyone actually enforce that rule?
Not that I've seen for EDH, though I'm pretty sure the rule doesn't specify that you have to be able to shuffle it in one pile. Otherwise, Battle of Wits decks wouldn't be tournament legal at all.schweinefett wrote: ↑4 years agoI believe theres a rule in the official rules that says that you have to be able to shuffle your own deck. Does anyone actually enforce that rule?
- toctheyounger
- Posts: 3984
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- Pronoun: he / him
- Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Yeah, as nitpicky as that is I think calling someone out on that would contravene the 'spirit of the format' and probably just doesn't really apply to EDH. Especially for those who double sleeve.
- BaronCappuccino
- Posts: 246
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- Location: Quiet Corner
I shuffle 2/3s or so of my deck at a time, always mixing in the last unused stack, and when it comes time to put it all together, I use the tabletop for assistance for a few full shuffles, just kinda looking away so that people know I can't see the bottom card.
I've got big ol mitts so shuffling 100 cards double sleeved isn't too bad. Matte sleeves make a huge difference (Eclipse ftw!)
I usually do a mix of mash and riffle shuffle (I'm crazy like that) and then my play group cuts decks just because.
I usually do a mix of mash and riffle shuffle (I'm crazy like that) and then my play group cuts decks just because.