Let's rank ALL the fixing lands

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

We've gotten land cycles occasionally in RCotD, but thanks to the "otD" part, it never really gets as deep as I'd like. So I went through every land cycle I could find, and ranked them. That way everyone can disagree, and we can all waste a lot of time while we're sitting inside quarantined/paranoid.

I'm going to rank on the assumption of minimal synergy, but I'll point out circumstances where these lands could be better than I've ranked them.

KEY:
(F) = friendly only cycle (shards for trilands)
(E) = enemy only cycle (wedges for trilands)

#1 - Fetchlands

Expensive, but unequivocally the best. If you need proof, just look at competitive formats, where these consistently dominate. With dual-typed lands, these function as rainbow lands with a very modest life investment, but they're so much more - they also provide a shuffle, graveyard fuel, recursion potential, landfalls, sac triggers, and more. Unlike every other land on this list, they're also resistant to nonbasic hate, since they can hit basics if you suspect hate is incoming. Any optimized deck should be running as many of these as possible - even many mono-colored lists can get benefits from them.

Synergies: dual-typed lands, land recursion, topdeck control, delve, landfall

#2 - ABU Duals

The classic duals. These are obviously very strong duals, having essentially no downside and tapping for 2 colors, but imo their biggest strength is how they perform with fetches. While these are certainly very good, I wouldn't necessarily always run all ten in a 5c deck, since they aren't always good topdecks in a deck where they only cover 40% of your colors. But for anything 4 colors or less, I'd almost always run as many as possible.

Synergies: fetches, basic type bonuses

#3 - Shocklands

Strictly worse than the ABU duals in virtually all cases, but in a 40-life format it's a fairly minimal downside. As with duals, their biggest benefit is their synergy with fetches. Without fetches or other type synergies, these would be just barely better than painlands really, but those synergies make them indispensable, especially if you're running fetches but don't have ABU duals. I'd probably always run all of these in 3 colors or less, and probably at least some in every multicolor deck, but how many I'd run in 4-5 color would depend on my color balance and how many fixing land slots I had. If you have fetches without ABU duals, though, you're probably running these at ABU dual frequencies, though.

Synergies: fetches, basic type bonuses, not having ABU duals

#4 - BBD duals (F)

These are basically just ABU duals without the land typing. If you plan to play 1v1 these will drop off significantly, but in multiplayer they're very nearly no-downside duals. They'll enter untapped almost always, and if they game is down to 1v1 it's a good bet you've got a lot of lands and one entering tapped isn't a big deal. That said, they don't have any particular synergies. They're just good dual lands. I'd always run them in 3 or fewer colors, but would probably only run the ones supporting my main colors is 4+ color decks.

Synergies: having enough people to play properly

#5 - Checklands

Much like the BBD duals, these will enter untapped reliably in most decks, but otherwise offer few benefits aside from good fixing. Unlike the BBD duals, these drop off significantly if you're playing more than 3 colors, though, since they're much less likely to enter untapped. This is especially true if you don't have fetches, since most duals aren't land-typed. They also can't enter untapped as your first land, which can be a significant downside in very fast decks that need to hit plays on the early turns reliably. For average decks that either don't mind these as a tapland on T1, or waiting until later to play it untapped, though, the times these will bite you in 2-3 color decks is very rare.

Synergies: fetches/dual-typed lands, not too many colors

#6 - Bicycle Lands (F)

Always entering tapped is a significant downside, but luckily these do a lot to make up for it. For one thing, they're dual typed, which makes them an additional option to hit with fetches, although if you've already got the shock and the ABU dual then you probably don't really need it, since by the time you've already fetched both you're probably doing fine on both of those colors, and would be better off hitting basics for hate protection. If you don't have ABU duals, though, these go up significantly, and it's nice to be able to hit them when you have a fetch to crack but know you don't need the mana this turn. The cycling ability can range from very useful to pretty meaningless, depending on how well your deck handles excess mana. If your commander is The Scorpion God, for example, you'd probably be better off with an untapped land since you'll always have a place to put excess mana. Whereas if you're often running out of gas, having a land that can try to find something else might help you from guttering out. And it's also neat with Life from the Loam and other recursion.

Synergies: fetches, land type bonuses, not having ABU duals, recursion, limited mana utility

#7 - Filter lands

Filter lands are really interesting, because they've got some really high and really low rolls. On one hand, they can do a fantastic job of enabling you to cast cards with really high costs of a certain color (i.e. necropotence or invoke prejudice), but on the other hand if you can't get one of the two colors, they're colorless. As a result, they're usually an auto-include in 2 color decks, can be great or just okay in 3 color decks depending on the mana costs and color split, and are often risky in 4+ color decks. That said, if you've got a couple main colors which the deck includes cards with high color requirements for, then these can potentially fit into any deck. I'd usually look at my mana costs and how many sources I have for the respective colors before including them, and I'm also very likely to include only a couple of them, in the colors I use most and have the heaviest requirements for.

Synergies: high color requirements (of one color), "primary" colors, mana doublers

#8 - ODY filter lands (F)

The less popular brother to the shadowmoor filter lands, odyssey's filters are still quite solid. While in theory they can be even riskier than shadowmoor filters, because they can't even produce colorless on their own, in reality they're pretty robust since they can use any mana to activate, and thus are less dependent on being in "primary" colors. If you like using colorless utility lands, these can help turn that hard-to-use mana into something more helpful, and can ensure you still cast your commander on-curve even if it doesn't have any colorless in its cost. I'd avoid using too many of these, since they can be a disaster in multiples, and like signets, they require forethought to avoid getting stuck with an unusable land (In general, I'd try to use them ASAP in your turn to avoid this scenario). And also they don't play very nicely with the aforementioned necropotences of the world. As a result, you're well advised to match your lands to your deck.

Synergies: high color requirements (of multiple colors), colorless utility lands, commanders with no colorless cost

#9 - Painlands

These used to be the premium duals, back when I first started playing. That said, they're still surprisingly good. They always enter untapped, and they always tap for two colors at a fairly minimal cost. So long as you only need to use them occasionally for their colored mana - a splash color, hitting the last pip on your necropotence - there's really nothing wrong with them. Where they start to become a problem is if you're using one through the whole game for colored mana the damage can start to become significant. In a 2-color deck I'd almost always run one, since it can usually be used for colorless but provides colored mana when most needed. In a 5 color deck, though, I'd probably avoid these.

Synergies: damaging yourself triggers, colorless (eldrazi) costs

#10 - Karoo lands

I'm sure I'm going to catch flak for putting these so high in the list, and it's true that their position is pretty dependent on the speed of your meta. That said, these have significant upside in exchange for the pain of entering tapped. Effectively, they let you draw an entire card - albeit one that's guaranteed to be a land. Imagine if there was a new dual land cycle that always entered tapped, but searched for a basic to hand on etb. That's functionally what these are. In 1v1 they're much more risky, since they're actually worth hitting with strip mine and co, but in multiplayer that's generally a bad move, making these pretty safe, though they do get hit harder than normal by nonbasic hate (though if you play them under a blood moon and then the blood moon goes away, you get free ramp). Much like the ODY filters, these get more risky the more you have, since they can't be your first land drop, so caution is advised. And in addition, since these will "replace" themselves in your hand, be cautious about running them out early since you might lose the card advantage they provide to hand size (although ofc playing one is still better than playing no land). Unless you want to discard something, in which case that's just an added bonus.

Synergies: landfall, land untaps, slow metas, exploration, certain grave synergies

#11 - Fastlands (F)

These are in a weird spot, because most of them are significantly more expensive than their corresponding painland, but generally worse. As a result, they don't get much play in commander. That said, they're still pretty decent. The early turns are the most crucial for having untapped lands, generally-speaking. That said, a lot of commander games can go very long, and the window when these enter untapped versus tapped can get pretty small. I'd probably run them in a 2-color deck, but I'm unlikely to run them in decks with more colors simply because they're boxed out by the competition.

Synergies: fast decks

#12 - Trilands

The second guaranteed-to-enter-tapped land on the list. These are a great example of a land that's excellent for beginners but will get cut as the list gets stronger. Tapping for 3 colors is a lot of the color pie, but fixing in commander is good enough that can get pretty impeccable fixing without sacrificing tempo. That said, there's nothing wrong with these, and any budget 3 color deck should be running the corresponding triland.

Synergies: budget builds, having exactly 3 colors

#13 - Temples

Temples are a decent dual - they have a small upside, but enter tapped. They're fine. Generally-speaking, a good deck should get more value out of the tempo of an untapped land than it would a scry 1, which is why they rank this low, but they're still totally fine, and imo are often worth running in 2 color decks with limited options. A hidden downside is that the scry is usually most valuable late-game, when scrying a land to the bottom is as good as a draw, whereas early drawing anything is generally fine (unless you really need to hit another land) - so playing a temple T1 if you have nothing better to do might be sacrificing long-term value.

Synergies: playing grenzo, dungeon warden

#14 - horizon lands (E) (+GW)

Personally I'm a bit down on these lands, simply because almost any successful commander deck that isn't planning to combo win quickly will probably want to have some way to turn mana into cards in order to keep itself going into the late-game. Whether that's a control deck pumping a million mana into Blue Sun's Zenith, on aggro deck turning attacks into draw with Ohran Frostfang. So I don't really like sacrificing mana to draw, when that mana might be helping to fuel my draw engine later in the game. I also don't like constantly taking damage from my lands. That said, these enter untapped and tap for 2 colors, and do have a bonus even if most well-made decks shouldn't want to use it very often. Whether these are worth running probably depends more on how much you expect the damage to matter, although there can be some synergies with recursion and such.

Synergies: land recursion, delve, fast decks

#15 - ETBT fetches (F)

Yes, we've gotten 14 spots down the list and the only difference is that we've traded paying a life for entering tapped. That's partly because entering tapped is a pretty big deal...but it's also because, if we're being honest, there are a LOT of really good lands in commander. These probably won't make the cut for most decks, simply because fetches are so much better, but if you're really going all-in on fetch synergies, these aren't bad by any stretch. Plus they're dirt cheap.

Synergies: dual-typed lands, land recursion, delve, topdeck control, landfall

#16 - Man-duals

This is the only cycle that sort of needs to be rated individually, since each one is different, though they're at least somewhat comparable in power. Personally I rarely activate my man-duals, but they can be worth the spot if they have synergy with your deck, or especially if you have equipment that could be shouldered by a land if your commander is getting hated out. My order for ranking these would be:
  • UB (gets damage triggers the best, inevitability)
  • BR (randomly fireball kills people, trades ok)
  • BG (rattlesnake blocker, potential ping synergy)
  • RW (double damage trigger potential)
  • WU (evasion, blocks flyers)
  • UB (lifegain synergy)
  • GU (works well vs control pieces, when you counter wasteland with it you feel like a god)
  • RG (in magical dreamland you'll get eight counters on it! in reality it's a 4/4 once)
  • GW (it's cheap to activate and blocks ok)
  • UR (there's some bad combos with it, otherwise it's pretty much crap)
#17 - Tangos (F)

Are these lands secretly the reason I made this list? Maybe. I do not like these lands one bit, but they get a lot of attention because they're one of only 4 cycles of duals with basic typing. I think this placement is very fair, though. There's two points to consider. The first is how well they play when drawn, in comparison to the above, un-typed duals. The second question is how useful they are off fetches.

As compared to other lands, these fall woefully short. Where checklands lost some points for needing another land with either of their types to enter untapped, these need two lands (making them reverse fastlands at best), AND they have to be basic, not dual-typed. Now, granted, they don't need to share a type with the tango land, but the more colors you have, the less room you have for basics and the less likely you'll have 2 out early. Now, of course, if you are running a lot of basics this becomes less of a problem, but even if every other land in your deck is a basic, these are still quite mediocre since it's the early turns that are often the most important, when you need to hit your curve to play ramp and set up for the midgame.

The main counterargument to this is that they're fetchable, which is true of course, but it hardly saves them imo. Especially while these are only in friendly colors, there are three better options with the same colors available. Once you've already fetched out all of those, do you really need another dual land? I'd much prefer to get a basic and protect myself from nonbasic hate. Even if you don't have an ABU dual, I'd still consider a third dual-typed land to be unnecessary. Two is almost always plenty.

The dual types can potentially have other advantages - i.e. emeria, the sky ruin - that might justify including these over other duals, and sometimes they're ok in a 2-color deck with really crazy color requirements, but otherwise I'd almost never play these.

synergies: basic type bonuses, low standards

#18 - Reveal Lands (F)

I really don't like these. In theory they're ok, but in practice it's so much easier to have a typed land on the battlefield than in hand, since you can fetch them onto the battlefield. That said, in a 2-color deck they're ok I guess, if you're running a lot of basics, although there are enough better options you probably shouldn't need to run them.

synergies: high basic count, 2 color decks, budget

#19 - Storage lands (F)

This cycle is funny because it's one of my least favorites but it's actually probably underrated. Commander games are often decided by big, powerful plays, and being able to build up your power until the opportune time is a powerful tool for a land to provide. But I just hate keeping track of counters on my lands, so I haven't run these in ages. They do definitely trend casual, since they require dumping 2 mana into them to charge. Great for a meta that involves durdling until someone drops a bomb on turn 20, less good in a meta where things are actually happening.

synergies: slow metas, big spells/turns, proliferate

#20 - Panoramas (F)

The next worst version of fetches. These break from the previous options by only hitting basics, which of course makes them garbage. They do enter untapped and tap for colorless, though, so that's kind of nice. They're conceivable if you need to recursion synergy lands, or if you're on a really tight budget.

synergies: land recursion, topdeck control, delve, landfall, budget

#21 - Tribal duals (F/E/???)

If I'm being fair, these are probably quite high if you're playing a tribal deck with them, but otherwise they're pretty unlikely to enter untapped generally, and thus quite weak. The cycle doesn't follow the normal friendly/enemy scheme.

synergies: tribal

#22 - Refuge-likes

We've almost hit straight-up etbt duals, but not quite. Here we get 1 measly life as our benefit. But hey, in the right deck, that might actually be reasonable justification to run them.

synergies: lifegain, budget

#23 - Refuges (F)

See above.

#24 - Snow duals (F)

There are some snow synergies that might actually make this justifiable - although most good snow decks will be monocolor so they can safely run a ton of snow basics without compromising their fixing.

synergies: snow

#25 - Guildgates

There aren't many gate synergies that make any sense in commander - basically just maze's end. Other than that, these are just weak budget lands.

synergies: gates, budget

#26 - Invasion duals

I'll confess I have a soft spot in my heart for these, since they were the go-to budget fixing lands when I started playing. They're crap, of course, as is everything beyond this point. But hey, it's always fun to see just how bad magic cards can be.

synergies: for the budget player with exquisite taste

#27 - Tainted lands (?)

I really don't like the tainted lands, as evidenced by their spot down here. For one thing, they're budget fixers when most budget fixing won't have land types. For a second thing, they kick you when you're down. When you most need black mana, their black mana ability is turned off. As such, they just exacerbate color screw. Unless you need the extra black mana, you could just run a basic of the other color, and have that color guaranteed. These only begin to make sense if you're really heavy black. Otherwise they're just a total disaster.

synergies: heavy black decks with a splash, budget

#28 - ETBT painlands (E)

If you didn't love painlands, how about painlands that also ETBT? Yes, tempest was a hard time to play multicolor, wizards was still figuring out a fair rate after somewhat overdoing it with the ABU duals. These are both obscure and terrible. But they're also one of the only enemy-only cycles of lands!

synergies: terrible cards tribal

#29 - Tempest Stucklands (F)

I'm pretty sure I just invented the term "stucklands", but it groks really well to me so I'm sticking with it. Unfortunately it will never be used by anyone else because this cycle of lands is truly atrocious. At least it enters untapped, but the cost to pay for a colored mana is very painful, every single time. Luckily after tempest wizards realized how bad these lands were and they were never seen again...

synergies: wanting to lose

#30 - Kamigawa Stucklands (F)

Just kidding! Were these horrible lands the reason Kamigawa was unpopular? We may never know (but yes, duh). Even more tragic here, because they wasted really cool art and flavor on them, and they don't even have that sweet "horrible old funny jank" smell on them like the tempest lands do.

synergies: can we stop? please?

#31 - Lairs (F)

Back when I was an idiot I remember loving these lands. My justification was "ok, bouncing a land is real bad, but if you only play them as your last land, then it's no downside at all! I solved the game!" How wrong I was. For one thing, if you topdeck another land, you've just shot yourself in the foot. For a second, fixing that requires you to play it as your last land is real bad. While other lands might set you back in mana temporarily, these can set you back in mana PERMANENTLY. They are very bad.

synergies: kill me kill me kill me...ok, landfall though I guess...kill me

#32 - Homelands trilands (F)

You know it's going to be good when we're talking homelands. You know the extremely janky, barely-limited-playable unknown shores? What if we took that card...and made it so that only one color could be produced at the (extremely efficient) cost of only 2 mana, and the others cost the princely sum of 3 mana to produce just one mana of their color? Still too good? Ok, it only produces 2 other colors. And we know these are going to be super playable, so let's give them awesome flavour as some of the most iconic buildings from early magic, with the knowledge that this won't be a huge waste. Nailed it!

synergies: .......................

#33 - Ice Age Depletion lands

Magic is a game for dreamers. Twenty five years ago, magic scientists dared to dream of a land cycle even worse than the Stucklands (this was several years before stucklands were released, so it was a somewhat confusing dream). A land cycle so bad, that virtually everyone would forget it existed when they were comparing cycles of dual lands. But today I honor the memory of those dreamers, for unto this world they dared to ask the question "ok, the stucklands are pretty horrible, but what if....what if we got rid of their ability to produce colorless without exerting themselves? And what if we gave them horribly confusing wording that takes a three-week correspondence course to understand? And just for fun...let's make it so that, if you're ever playing against Atraxa, your land will just get stuck forever and you'll never get it back?"

And thus, the ice age depletion land cycle was born. And it was the worst thing ever.

synergies: im ded.
Last edited by DirkGently 4 years ago, edited 4 times in total.
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Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 4 years ago

No vivid lands? For shame. They're the first includes for me in a 5c deck while I'm just testing it. They're obviously worse than a bunch of stuff but I like them a lot. Curious to know how you compare them to tri-lands.

This seems really interesting to me. I'll comment more later.

Edit: bouncelands?

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

My few hot takes:

Painlands should be #5. They are very, very good and underrated.

Tainted lands are better than guildgates.

Tangos worse than temples or trilands? You so crazy DIrk. I'd put them at 11 after fast lands, but it's close. The way I build decks they're usually better, but I am kinda particular about high basic count. In 2 color decks they're absolutely better than fast lands, probably #5 in a high fetch high basics manabase.

Horizon lands are #3 or 4 for me personally.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

materpillar wrote:
4 years ago
Edit: bouncelands?
Crap I knew I forgot something.

It's 4AM I'm going to sleep. I'll fix it tomorrow, after I downgrade tangos EVEN FURTHER :love:

EDIT: I left off vivids intentionally since they're not a dual/tri cycle. My personal opinion is that I dislike them because I hate tracking counters (see storage lands). I think wotc way overuses them - they're really strictly for a 5c-super-budget option, yet wotc keeps shoving them into 2-3 color decks where they're terrible.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Post by Toshi » 4 years ago

My Top10:*
1. Fetches
2. ABUR Duals
3. Shocks
4. BBD Duals
5. Checks
6. Pains
7. Filters
8. Tainted Lands
9. Tangos
10. Bicycles

*In 2C-Context only

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Dirk, you neglect something incredibly important about the Homelands tri lands: Flex factor. I mean, sure, they're terrible, but at least they come into play untapped and tap for colorless with no hoops, so in paper, where I lack many options for colorless utility, I've ran them in a colorless land slot. Would literally any other colorless land or basic land (except wastes) been better? No, that's nonsense. Can any other land let me windmill slam Baron Sengir's %$#% crib? Can any other land let me stick an actual wizards school in a wizards tribal deck? Is there anything that compares to the table laughing and asking "Is that a Homelands card?" No, no there isn't.

Ok, seriously though, this is a great list. I'd rank pains 5th or 6th honestly. I feel like they are equal to checks but more reliable. Checks are better in 2 color, they are maybe equal in 3, and anything more pains win. When I run them, they get me the color when I need it but will usually tap for colorless, which honestly is the role most lands fill most of the time. That they actually have upsides, like producing colorless mana and synergy with damage triggers is pretty sweet, and puts them above checks for me (as otherwise they are about equal). I like them better the bicycles simply because they enter untapped, and that's more important to me than the dual typing and even cycling (though cycling has synergies obviously). Online, once I fetch a Dual and a Shock, I'm cool fetching basics. In paper, I'm cool fetching basics after getting a shock honestly. These are still good, but I'd rather draw the pain land early more than I'd rather draw the bicycle late, and since early is already more important than late this puts pains clearly ahead for me.

I'd shoot tribal duals all the way up to 12 or 13, maybe as far as 11. Rather, I think they are so unique that they sort of deserve 2 ratings, 11 for tribal decks and equal to invasions for anything else. Realistically, you are only running them in tribal decks with their colors, and in those decks they are much easier to use than the typed reveals (you're probably going to have more creatures of the correct type in your deck than lands of the correct types). These are nearly as reliable as checks in their tribes decks, and I'd knock them down to 12 solely because they are narrow.

Guildgates are even harder to rate. They are weak budget lands with only mild synergies outside of mazes end (that one wall that searches for a gate is pretty alright). But in lands.dek, they win the game. I think I agree with your rating though, because once you're scapeshifting them out or even grinding toward the maze win with extra land drops, these aren't mana fixers anymore, their a combo.

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Post by materpillar » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
#32 - Ice Age Depletion lands

Magic is a game for dreamers. Twenty five years ago, magic scientists dared to dream of a land cycle even worse than the Stucklands (this was several years before stucklands were released, so it was a somewhat confusing dream). A land cycle so bad, that virtually everyone would forget it existed when they were comparing cycles of dual lands. But today I honor the memory of those dreamers, for unto this world they dared to ask the question "ok, the stucklands are pretty horrible, but what if....what if we got rid of their ability to produce colorless without exerting themselves? And what if we gave them horribly confusing wording that takes a three-week correspondence course to understand? And just for fun...let's make it so that, if you're ever playing against Atraxa, your land will just get stuck forever and you'll never get it back?"

And thus, the ice age depletion land cycle was born. And it was the worst thing ever.

synergies: im ded.
What about the obvious Soul Diviner synergy?

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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

I think it's context dependent, as you hinted at when talking about the Filter Lands.

For all decks:
1. In-colour Fetchlands
2. ABU Duals

I think these are pretty much the undisputed masters of mana fixing. Fetchlands in particular provide far more utility than they should, because mechanics like Threshold, Delve and Escape keep getting made.

For allied 2 colour decks:
3. Filter Lands
4. BBD lands
5. Painlands
6. Shocklands
7. Checklands
8. Tango lands

It's not hard to fix two-colour decks, but some mana costs make great use of the Filter lands while remaining in a low-risk context. I find for my two-colour decks, Painlands rarely hurt more than a shockland, and the colourless can even be a bonus (for cards that specifically need colourless mana, like Kozilek, the Great Distortion or Mirrorpool). I kind of consider Shocklands and Checklands together, though, if you don't have access to ABU duals, I rate shocklands a bit higher (around 5).

For enemy two-colour decks:
3. Filter lands
4. Painlands
5. Shocklands
6. Checklands
7. Tap Fetches
8. Temples

There aren't any BBD or Tango lands. I think, at this point, the utility of tap fetches wins out (for all the utility reasons regular fetches are the best lands).

For shard (like Esper) decks:
3. BBD lands
4. Shock lands
5. Triland/Path of Ancestry
6. Pain Lands
7. Filter Lands
8. Checklands

For shard decks, Shocks surge ahead of painlands in terms of taking less damage and having basic types for fetches, and Filter/check lands fall down the rankings due to reliability issues. Access to Trilands also helps push some of the less desirable out of the picture entirely.

For wedge (like Sultai) decks:
3. Shock lands
4. Triland/Path of Ancestry
5. Pain Lands
6. Filter lands
7. Check lands
8. Tap Fetches

For 4-5 colour decks
3. Shocklands
4. Path of Ancestry, other 5-colour lands worse than Command Tower like City of Brass, Reflecting Pool, Mana Confluence
5. There isn't much room after this, is there?

At some point, decks just don't have room for more. If you play 10 fetches, 10 ABU duals, and 10 Shocks, you're probably not going to have much more room. Even on a more realistic budget, it's impossible to rate something like a checkland for a 5-colour deck, because even if you don't own ABU duals, are running shocks and 5 allied fetches, you're still squeezing in basic and utility lands, and you probably don't have much room for Check/Filter lands (which become very unreliable) or want to take damage from Painlands on top of the shocklands you're already playing.

I would venture that Ravnica Karoos, Bicycle lands, and much of the other weird lands are more niche than a simple rating system allows. Ravnica Karoos have their place in decks that will have more land drops than they can use (Boros, sometimes green with extra land plays) or want to abuse landfall triggers without running out of lands to play, Bicycle lands will see play in Astral Slide style decks, and even Refuges/Refuge-likes might be desired in decks like Karlov of the Ghost Council. Similarly, decks might want to play lands specifically with the Forest type (like Cinder Glade) for the purposes of Skyshroud Claim/Ranger's Path, but might not run Smoldering Marsh because the utility just isn't there for the deck.

After those niche lands are the unredeemables: Your Kamigawa lands, or the lands from Tempest. They're just bad, and no one should run them.

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Post by Dragoon » 4 years ago

Interesting ranking. My only problem is that the fetches are influencing it just by their very existence. If someone doesn't have access to them, they can't just ignore them and keep the rest of the ranking as is. I feel like the BBD Duals, Pains and Filters are the go-to option if you don't have access to fetches. (ABUR Duals would still be the best option with BBD Duals, but if you don't have fetches, you likely won't have these lands either).

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

Tainted lands get a lot better when you play fetches and shocks. I like Tainted Peak in my Rakdos deck that also needs colorless for Kozilek.

Horizon lands are also much better, as are pain lands. The life loss is negligible. The upside is really high.
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 4 years ago

I like the horizon lands (waterlogged grove) in Uro as another pseudo cycling land option with life from the loam. It helped save loam from being exiled once as my last possible response to repeated withered wretch activations. I also kind of like the tango lands, particularly in 2 color decks that will likely have enough basics to come in untapped. I allow myself 3-5 potentially etbt lands in a deck...I also am not looking to have the most brutally efficient mana base admittedly. I don't like straight up bad mana bases, but I also won't run off color fetches which tends to open up a few land slots in a deck for some of the less efficient options.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Dragoon wrote:
4 years ago
Interesting ranking. My only problem is that the fetches are influencing it just by their very existence. If someone doesn't have access to them, they can't just ignore them and keep the rest of the ranking as is. I feel like the BBD Duals, Pains and Filters are the go-to option if you don't have access to fetches. (ABUR Duals would still be the best option with BBD Duals, but if you don't have fetches, you likely won't have these lands either).
This is a very good and important point. The fetch heavy manabase drastically influences the choice of other lands for sure.

Edit: Y'know I think there's a serious writing topic about ways to approach different manabases. It's really interesting how different mine have wound up being depending on how many fetches I'm running, whether I want to run checklands, etc. etc.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago
I'd rank pains 5th or 6th honestly. I feel like they are equal to checks but more reliable. Checks are better in 2 color, they are maybe equal in 3, and anything more pains win.

I'd shoot tribal duals all the way up to 12 or 13, maybe as far as 11.
Pains I actually do like a fair bit, that part of the list is probably the hardest for me because a lot of the lands there have significant upsides that can put them over even a BBD dual, or a theoretical un-typed dual with no downsides. Filters of both stripes can drastically change the colors you can produce, and give you a lot of potential flexibility. It's totally possible I'm overrating the bicycle lands, though, I run LFTL a lot which probably colors my opinion of them.

Personally I don't think I've ever run a tribal dual, funny enough. I agree that they're better than the reveal lands in their respective decks, but for consistency's sake I chose to rate them assuming no intentional tribal synergies. If your deck wants them, I think you'll probably know.
materpillar wrote:
4 years ago
What about the obvious Soul Diviner synergy?
My god, you're right. Their plan, decades in the making, finally came to fruition! Let me re-calibrate the list...

nope, still the worst thing ever :explode:

Another amusing synergy is that you can eliminate the downside so long as you always tap them at the beginning of your upkeep. Of course you'll need to figure out how to use your mana at that point first, though.
Dragoon wrote:
4 years ago
Interesting ranking. My only problem is that the fetches are influencing it just by their very existence. If someone doesn't have access to them, they can't just ignore them and keep the rest of the ranking as is. I feel like the BBD Duals, Pains and Filters are the go-to option if you don't have access to fetches. (ABUR Duals would still be the best option with BBD Duals, but if you don't have fetches, you likely won't have these lands either).
True, although I actually don't think it changes the list THAT much. It's harder to justify the price tag of ABU duals (and shocks, to a much lesser extent) but they're still fine lands. Bicycle lands probably drop a bit unless you're using LFTL or similar. Tangos I actually don't think are affected, since fetches don't need them.
WolfWhoWanders wrote:
4 years ago
I like the horizon lands (waterlogged grove) in Uro as another pseudo cycling land option with life from the loam.
While the horizon lands are significantly better with loam, I think where they really shine is alongside crucible of worlds, since you aren't wasting draws to dredge. I do think Uro specifically is synergistic with them, though, because he mitigates the downside of sacrificing your land drop in order to cycle them.

They're likely one of the cycles I'm most underrating, but I personally don't find myself using them very often. I usually look at them and think..."but I'm not going to want to sacrifice my mana for draw....and I want to play a long game where that damage could add up" and leave them in the bin.
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Post by Inkeyes22 » 4 years ago

I really like your list, one factor that is very hard to overcome is the person that has lots of decks. I find that some of my decks do have Fetches/ABU/Shocks and some run Refuges/Gates. So having affordable options for your decks that are being built with the flavor of the week is nice.

I actually have a 3c deck that is running the 3 on-color fetches, ABU duals, shocks and 2-3 Refuges. Mostly because I put it together with what I have on hand, and partially because I haven't bought the Celestial Colonnade and a Scry Temple or 2 that I would need. Yes, my OCD is bothering me that I don't have a "perfect" manabase for it, but as I likely won't be playing with paper for a few months I can't justify spending the $$ on them right now. I know that it would likely be around $10 or so to upgrade it, but as it is clocking in around $1,500 already it seems silly. I just don't get to play paper enough to justify spending the dinero now.

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

I really adore shocklands, your "bicycle" lands, painlands and the scrying temples, any dual with "unless" written on it and the ODY filter lands. I guess I come from a time when I expected mana bases to just be complete junk, I've played Pine Barrens before and it's worse than a guildgate, hee, I have no standards.

The Worldwake manland duals are really amazing too; the costs to activate them are not small but I've noticed that, after a board wipe, they become powerful in a way that exactly fits the colour pair they belong to; the red/black one can be a greedy one-shot, the white/green one is this taciturn blocker that lets you rebuild for a while, obviously we know Colonnade rules already, etc

I agree with Dirk's ranking except I'm not allergic to the BFZ duals and would put the horizon duals way higher. Generally I think they are too good for something that doesn't come into play tapped; in a two colour deck it's a city of brass/confluence that has old-school destiny cycling for no reason??

I used to have a Taiga and a Trop but I never felt comfortable playing them; I see them as being reserved for people who care more about winning than I do, they're sort of arcanely unbalanced in a way that doesn't suit the typical junk I put into decks, like a peanut butter and caviar sandwich. I also used to have almost a full 20 Onslaught fetches but I used them to trade for interesting cards - sorry, but I think they are some of the most broken cards in the whole game.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 4 years ago

I don't like fastlands in Commander. They would be much lower ranked for me. Outside of your opening hand, turn 1 and 2, they are just basic tapped duals.

I like Tango lands because I have fetches, they would probably swap rankings with fast lands. I agree they are "reverse Fastlands" and thats ok for me because I don't like Fastlands. On the Topdeck, Tangos are more likely to enter untapped, and I can Fetch them before Shocks if I don't need the mana right away. If I don't have a 1 drop with an opening Fetch, I can grab a Tango for no net loss in tempo, and I won't draw it later either.

Dual typed lands get an extra boost in GREEN from Farseek, Wood Elves, Nature's Lore, and Skyshroud Claim. Also Cabal Coffers, Oreskos Explorer and Knight of the White Orchid. That's why I am happy to see cheaper options in that space. We need to finish the cycle of those two friendly only duals. I am a dual-typed fanboi.

I should have gotten some BBD duals because they are growing on me, but at the current price I can use Tangos and Bicycles and be happy for much cheaper.
I also like Filters A LOT, but they are ranked well enough. I played filters in Standard and loved every minute. Kind of a pet cycle for me.
Temples I like on a budget, but I think they are weaker than the others above, but better than Fastlands.
Painlands are like Temples. They are good cards, and I don't look down on either, but I have higher tier lands so these don't see play.

In a vacuum things change, but cards are never played in a vacuum, so my opinions are based on how I use the cards. I can think of a card that makes Dual-Typing matter in every color, just not as prominent in Blue or Red. They still offer advantages outside fetch lands, just not as high.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Tangos vs fastlands depend on the speed of your deck, but personally I'd rather have fastlands because my decks are usually well-tuned at what they do. I'm trying to start executing on my strategy as quickly as possible, and those early turns can be crucial. Of course that doesn't mean the game won't go long, but being one mana down on a later turn is much less likely to matter than being a mana down in the first few turns. That said, I don't think I'd ever even consider either of them outside of a 2c deck.

If you're already running bicycles, I don't see any reason to use tangos for fetch targets, even without ABU duals - maybe in 2 color, but beyond that it's a definite no from me. Same for any forest-fetching spells, unless you're worried about running out of targets. Also same for any plains-specific fetching. And coffers is not a card I'd seriously consider running in any deck that wasn't mono-black. Yes, you can combine it with urborg, but then you may as well run doubling cube, or some other doubler that doesn't require setup, because coffers is probably going to be putrid without setup. And if you've got urborg then the dual-typing doesn't matter anymore anyway.

To me Emeria is among the only good examples I can think of for justifying tangos, because it has a reasonable requirement to hit where having a critical mass actually matters (but also requires may more of a single color than you'd otherwise ever likely need), and having a fourth W/X target might actually matter if you're recurring the same fetch over and over.
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Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

The tainted lands are fantastic for any black deck that runs Necropotence. Also, the painlands and horizon lands should be ranked higher. 40 life is a resource.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
obviously we know Colonnade rules already, etc
Honestly I'm not a huge fan of colonnade. The activation cost is so high, and what's the upside? It's got the biggest body? Not super relevant in a format like commander, it'd take ages and a million mana to kill anyone with it. Sure, it's got evasion, but that's about it. The only thing saving it from ranking lower is that most of those below it are pretty crap.

I say this as someone with a foil, regular, and box topper version of the card. It's not very good. I'd run a karoo over it in a heartbeat.
NZB2323 wrote:
4 years ago
The tainted lands are fantastic for any black deck that runs Necropotence. Also, the painlands and horizon lands should be ranked higher. 40 life is a resource.
It's a resource that could be more efficiently spent, imo, in a format with as powerful of fixing as we have. I've lost plenty of games to gradual life loss, so that kind of fixing is by no means free. Yes, it's a 40-life format, but it's also a format that can go very long, and even one damage at a time can add up. Not to say painlands or horizon lands are bad, they just wouldn't top my list. Filter lands of both types are frequently better than an ABU dual (when drawn), so getting ranked lower than those by no means makes the lands bad.

For me to even consider running a tainted land, I'd need to be in 2-color black deck, with probably >50% swamps/fetches. Which limits how many other fixing lands and utility lands I can play. Even then, it's still miles below, say, a checkland for me, but I might conceivably run it in that very specific context (just like I might run a guildgate in a gates deck, or a snow dual in a snow deck). I see people playing them in straight-up 3 color manabases with 20% swamps, though, and they're absolute trash in that context.
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Post by plushpenguin » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Tangos vs fastlands depend on the speed of your deck, but personally I'd rather have fastlands because my decks are usually well-tuned at what they do. I'm trying to start executing on my strategy as quickly as possible, and those early turns can be crucial. Of course that doesn't mean the game won't go long, but being one mana down on a later turn is much less likely to matter than being a mana down in the first few turns. That said, I don't think I'd ever even consider either of them outside of a 2c deck.

If you're already running bicycles, I don't see any reason to use tangos for fetch targets, even without ABU duals - maybe in 2 color, but beyond that it's a definite no from me. Same for any forest-fetching spells, unless you're worried about running out of targets. Also same for any plains-specific fetching. And coffers is not a card I'd seriously consider running in any deck that wasn't mono-black. Yes, you can combine it with urborg, but then you may as well run doubling cube, or some other doubler that doesn't require setup, because coffers is probably going to be putrid without setup. And if you've got urborg then the dual-typing doesn't matter anymore anyway.

To me Emeria is among the only good examples I can think of for justifying tangos, because it has a reasonable requirement to hit where having a critical mass actually matters (but also requires may more of a single color than you'd otherwise ever likely need), and having a fourth W/X target might actually matter if you're recurring the same fetch over and over.
Coffers is actually pretty reliable in straight B/G or even B/G/x land-themed decks that have enough nonbasic search to get them out reliably. However, yes, I wouldn't throw it into any other 2 color combination. I've seen so many greedy players get hosed by it without having the proper support for it.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

plushpenguin wrote:
4 years ago
Coffers is actually pretty reliable in straight B/G or even B/G/x land-themed decks that have enough nonbasic search to get them out reliably. However, yes, I wouldn't throw it into any other 2 color combination. I've seen so many greedy players get hosed by it without having the proper support for it.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying I wouldn't personally do it.

There are a lot of cards that can drastically increase your available mana in the mid/late game: gauntlet of power, doubling cube, gilded lotus, boundless realms, traverse the outlands, mana reflection, etc. But as powerful as they are, they can't take the place of a land because they can't get you off the ground on their own. I see coffers in a multicolor deck as fitting into the same role. Sure, it can generate a decent amount of mana late-game, but so could plenty of spells. Unlike those spells, you can technically play it early, but it probably won't actually do anything for a while. And I think it's a lot less reliable than most of those spells.

I'm sure it can still be good in the proper context, but for my money I'd rather play something else.
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Your bias is showing, haha. Just about as evident as my bias towards anything that generates U...

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Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
obviously we know Colonnade rules already, etc
Honestly I'm not a huge fan of colonnade. The activation cost is so high, and what's the upside? It's got the biggest body? Not super relevant in a format like commander, it'd take ages and a million mana to kill anyone with it. Sure, it's got evasion, but that's about it. The only thing saving it from ranking lower is that most of those below it are pretty crap.

I say this as someone with a foil, regular, and box topper version of the card. It's not very good. I'd run a karoo over it in a heartbeat.
NZB2323 wrote:
4 years ago
The tainted lands are fantastic for any black deck that runs Necropotence. Also, the painlands and horizon lands should be ranked higher. 40 life is a resource.
It's a resource that could be more efficiently spent, imo, in a format with as powerful of fixing as we have. I've lost plenty of games to gradual life loss, so that kind of fixing is by no means free. Yes, it's a 40-life format, but it's also a format that can go very long, and even one damage at a time can add up. Not to say painlands or horizon lands are bad, they just wouldn't top my list. Filter lands of both types are frequently better than an ABU dual (when drawn), so getting ranked lower than those by no means makes the lands bad.

For me to even consider running a tainted land, I'd need to be in 2-color black deck, with probably >50% swamps/fetches. Which limits how many other fixing lands and utility lands I can play. Even then, it's still miles below, say, a checkland for me, but I might conceivably run it in that very specific context (just like I might run a guildgate in a gates deck, or a snow dual in a snow deck). I see people playing them in straight-up 3 color manabases with 20% swamps, though, and they're absolute trash in that context.
I'm fine with the checklands above the tainted lands, but the guild gates and invasion lands being ranked ahead of them is crazy. Obviously the tainted lands should be in decks that are heavy black, but they're great in those decks.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

NZB2323 wrote:
4 years ago
I'm fine with the checklands above the tainted lands, but the guild gates and invasion lands being ranked ahead of them is crazy. Obviously the tainted lands should be in decks that are heavy black, but they're great in those decks.
Let's not overstate what we're talking about here. The cap (barring eldrazi costs I suppose) is a dual land without downsides. That's something most lands in the upper half of the list can do pretty easily. It's less "great" and more "slightly above baseline".

There are enough powerful utility lands and stronger, untyped fixing lands that for a 35 land deck the most swamps (or functional swamps) I could realistically see running in a 2c deck would probably be about 20 - and that's the absolute cap. 20% is a fair chunk of the deck, but it's not so much that it's implausible not to start with one. I've had games where I struggled for a color source that comprised significantly more than 20% of my deck just from bad luck.

And that's where my biggest problem comes in: I REALLY don't like the downside. Other lands might be worse if you have a bad starter, but they'll still ultimately give you the fixing you need so you can play the game. Tainted lands kick you when you're down by not working when you MOST need it to work. And conversely, the times they work as intended, odds are good that it's off a dual land which already provided the colors you needed anyway. Lose less > win more.

Now am I underrating them? Idk, maybe. Having a couple etbt lands in a deck isn't going to cripple you in most games either, so honestly I'd probably run a guildgate over a tainted more often than not if I had to choose, in a vacuum, which is what I said the list was supposed to be. But regardless, they're definitely well below the threshold of where I'm considering them seriously for any of my own decks. Plus, after looking up prices, they're not even really budget lands anymore. So I really don't see any reason to run them.
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Post by jerotas » 3 years ago

Yeah, no. Don't feel bad because most people get this one wrong for some weird reason.

Odyssey Filter lands are #5, ahead of all of the following: checklands, bicycle lands, newer filter lands. Why? They ALWAYS ETB untapped. Plus, I can use actual colorless from lands like Volrath's Stronghold, High Market, Phyrexian Tower etc to produce both colors. The newer filter lands won't do that. If you have a hand with new filter plus colorless only land, you still can make only colorless. I've played with many things in my decks instead of the Odyssey filters and always return to them. They are the best non-searchable 2-color land period. I play with 3 in a 60 color deck.

For #6 I rank the manland dual lands ahead of everything else. I always include 2 or 3.

Fastlands are pretty good too. If your deck has mostly low CC, they are actually #4 or #5.

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