Let's rank ALL the fixing lands

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

jerotas wrote:
3 years ago
Odyssey Filter lands are #5, ahead of all of the following: checklands, bicycle lands, newer filter lands. Why? They ALWAYS ETB untapped. Plus, I can use actual colorless from lands like Volrath's Stronghold, High Market, Phyrexian Tower etc to produce both colors. The newer filter lands won't do that.
Elighten me again as to how these lands make valuable t1 plays.....

Oh right. And that's why these lands are so far down in the pecking order.

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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Your list has several oversights:
  • Triomes - you have trilands but not the land typed triomes/tricycles?
  • Mirage fetches - budget, but still useful fetch alternative.
  • Basic fetches - Fabled Passage, Prismatic Vista are the 'top', but Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse are plenty solid, and have synergy with landfall bases. From there you also have Myriad Landscape as a ramp option as well as fixing. (that basic cycling land fits here too)
  • Do you care about non-cycles? While you touch on the tribal lands, Murmuring Bosk is special in being both Basic Typed and being a Tri-land. When it comes to fetches, Krosan Verge is special in getting non-basic typed lands.
For me, every single land with a basic type trumps almost everything else on the list. The ability to fetch them is simply too great. While they obviously have multiplicative benefits with fetchlands (changing from a two color fixer to any color you need), there are other ways to fetch them in most colors as well, which makes them even more valuable. Lots of these fetch methods have the lands come in tapped, which partially negates the typically ETBT drawbacks most of these have. Having lands ETBT is also less of a drawback if you're already ahead on mana from ramping anyways.

This is also highly dependent on color. Green has the most available land search for both typed (wood elves) and non-typed (Pir's Whim), but also has the most fixing in general already, and may not care so much about its lands then. Meanwhile White has tons of typed land searching (Knight of the White Orchid/Kor Cartographer, etc), so Wx decks will value typed duals higher than other lands, especially since most tutor effects come in tapped anyways, so the typed drawbacks don't matter as much. White also has plenty of utility in typed-mono lands (Mistveil Plains and Idyllic Grange), and the Sun Titan synergy with fetches pushes typed lands far to the forefront for Wx decks.

Meanwhile blue, black, and red have generally terrible land search options (black has a few), but better draw effects, so would prioritize the lands that come in untapped, since your main avenue of 'fixing' will be drawing and hitting consistent land drops.

Also, with fetches, you may want to put Rings of Brighthearth as a synergy, as that turns every fetch into Rampant Growths, which is a cheat every color can use to ramp and fix.

===

Then there's the powerlevel consideration.

Battlecruiser groups (mine) which have high turn counts will not feel the impact of ETBT lands as heavily, while ramp and search factors increase. More competitive groups will favor untapped lands infinitely more than almost any ETBT lands. More so as the turn count goes down.

===

I also feel that basic lands do not get enough consideration/respect. Having a suitable base of basics and some minimal ramp effects can go a long way to having a solid mana base.

===

LATE EDIT: I just realized this post is from 9 months ago and was recently revived, hence no triomes. I apologize.
Last edited by bobthefunny 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

I agree that land types are critical, although it's a bit deck/budget dependent. If you are a G/x deck, I'd run every land with types I could - they are not just fetchable with fetches, they're fetchable with Nature's Lore / Farseek / Three Visits / Wood Elves / Skyshroud Claim which is amazing fixing power. White has Tithe, Gift of Estates, Kor Cartographer, and newer cards like Cartographer's Hawk and Boreas Charger.

But in Dimir, Rakdos, Izzet, and Grixis, I can see an argument that the bicycles and tangos are too slow for some builds, especially ones too poor to have fetches or too rich and thus flush with all the better lands.

That's especially true with almost a year since this was posted (almost missed it was a necro!) - in 9 months we've added the triomes to wedges, and we'll have the pathways for all color combinations as of next month. Personally, I like the Pathways a lot in my minimal testing.

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Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

I did miss that it was a necro. How embarrassing.

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Post by jerotas » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
jerotas wrote:
3 years ago
Odyssey Filter lands are #5, ahead of all of the following: checklands, bicycle lands, newer filter lands. Why? They ALWAYS ETB untapped. Plus, I can use actual colorless from lands like Volrath's Stronghold, High Market, Phyrexian Tower etc to produce both colors. The newer filter lands won't do that.
Elighten me again as to how these lands make valuable t1 plays.....

Oh right. And that's why these lands are so far down in the pecking order.
Who said you need to play it turn one? That would be dumb. And that has literally never been an issue in my decks. I play them turn 2 and cast stuff. The lorwyn filters are also useless turn one. And possibly even turn 2 for the reasons I stated. At the very least the Odyssey ones are better than the Lorwyn ones. I won't play the other 2 types period (bicycle / check) because ETB tapped at least sometimes.

And no need to be snide with your comments.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

jerotas wrote:
3 years ago
he lorwyn filters are also useless turn one.
Not exactly. You can cast a sol ring off a Cascade Bluffs (or any of a variety of other decent 1 CMC artifacts).

Not making mana without another source is a big challenge with Skycloud Expanse. Another huge problem they suffer from is needing to make double pips. If you have one of these as one of two lands, they can never make two pips, so no Counterspell off of a Skycloud Expanse and a Hallowed Fountain, for example.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I still like ODY filters, but that might be my affinity for colourless utility lands.

Although tbh I like all filters less than I used to, simply because of the slight added bookkeeping when deciding how to tap.
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Post by capitacommunist » 3 years ago

The odyssey filter lands I would not play typically in their two color combinations, but they can be very good in specific decks with a lot of artifact/utility lands and lower color requirements.

Painlands also regularly make the cut for me (as do the Lowryn filters), by producing colorless mana as well to support specific eldrazi cards or make Forsaken Monument better. I'd rate them higher than the bicycle lands (which after shocks/duals/basics only make the cut for me in two color decks.

In all of my three color wedge decks, the Triomes have a slot, and therefore I'd rank them quite high on the list. Fetchable duals (and land slots) are at a premium, and being able to fetch a three color land when you don't need the mana right away is a great setup for the rest of the game. They are also among the best to search with cards like Tithe.

The Horizon lands I'd place much higher. In every enemy colored deck they make the cut, and for a lot of lategame decks they can provide a card advantage engine through crucible of worlds and other land recursion effects as mentioned before.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 3 years ago

I'm not sure which of these threads is now the main thread, but I don't think Pathway's were mentioned in this one due to age.

Pathways are a good start for those to don't have some of the more premium lands, or don't like Filters as much. They always ETB tapped and have enough flexibility to help get you through the early turns. I would likely rate these above Temples and somewhere around Pain Lands. If your drafting or playing standard these are great pickups now that will pay dividends later. They are not the pinacle of fixing, but the can smooth over that color that you need right now.

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Post by umtiger » 3 years ago

Hey, those Odyssey filters let you quadruple up with Mana Reflection.

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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

jerotas wrote:
3 years ago
Odyssey Filter lands are #5, ahead of all of the following: checklands, bicycle lands, newer filter lands. Why? They ALWAYS ETB untapped. Plus, I can use actual colorless from lands like Volrath's Stronghold, High Market, Phyrexian Tower etc to produce both colors.
While they have their advantages, they also have other problems depending on your colour weight. If you're running a lot of cards that have a pile of the same symbol(like Necropotence), you may have trouble leveraging them. They do have synergy with Mana Reflection and Nyxbloom Ancient, though.

I find myself not running them all that often, simply because of colour weight issues.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 3 years ago

Do the same for five-color now. Winner has to be City of Brass and Mana Confluence. Loser? I want to say Terramorphic Expanse as a tapland, except Rhystic Cave is so, so much worse.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 3 years ago

I'm tempted to rank the new common snow duals with basic land types ahead of the TEMPLES because they are much easier to tutor. If I am going to have a land ETB tapped, I like to be able to do that when a tutor puts it into play that way (Farseek). Scry 1 is considered 1/2 of a card draw, so they are still decent, but I don't see a situation where I would play any green temples over the dual typed commons. In other colors with less land type synergies the Scry 1 may have a bigger advantage. But they are likely THE best dual cycle at common right now. I guess if you have literally zero basic typed synergies the "gain" lands are better.

More land type duals are making the Three Visits reprint all the sweeter. Now for a Nature's Lore reprint.

Now if they stopped adding that pesky word "basic" in front of every plains searcher in the last several years white/X decks would get to benefit from all these more than just green. I should probably pick up another Knight of the White Orchid or two.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

A straight up ETB tapped land with basic types would be > temples for me.

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Post by Sharpened » 2 years ago

I think this thread deserves a necro/revisit. We've gotten some new goodies, that are worthy of discussion.

Pathways
Snarls, finishing out the cycle of reveal lands
What do you even refer to the new Innistrad Duals as? I think they're quite good.
Campuses seem like a solid budget land, better than the refuges

My thoughts:
Pathways seem mediocre at best. No drawback, but you're picking one color then stuck with it. Not exactly exciting.

I'm glad they printed Snarls to finish out the cycle of reveal lands, but I think these lands are just bad. Even if every other land in your deck was a valid reveal for them, I still don't think they are particularly good. Look, ETB tapped is a big drawback, but as long as its only on a few lands, its a manageable one. It's rare, particularly in this format, that every deck has to curve out perfectly (being a turn behind EVERY turn is awful, but there's usually one turn in the first couple where you can be down a mana without it being a major setback). The problem with the Snarls is that when you can plan and manage the drawback, it's not a drawback. If you can sequence your lands to make sure your hand which goes (2 drop, 2 drop, 4 drop) plays the ETB tapped land on turn 3, you can sequence the snarl so that it doesn't ETB tapped. It's when you are topdecking lands that this is going to come into play tapped Basically, the drawback is only going to kick in when you lack the ability to play around it, which is just the worst. Really hate these things.

I really like the new Innistrad Duals, No drawback if you already have 2 lands seems great. As keepable opening hands are above 50% to have 3 or more lands, these are really solid.

Campuses aren't worth it in quality manabases, but honestly I rate them above Snarls/Reveals.

The Ravnica Karoos have also gone up slightly in my estimation. The amount of DFC lands like Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass make the ability to bounce a land better. Being able to bounce a card you used as a land early game to get it back as a spell lategame is nice. Probably not worth moving them up too much as a result, as in particularly fast meta's, both the Karoo's and the DFC spell/lands can stunt your development early, but at a more forgiving game pace seems fantastic.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

I think the pathways are solid. Depends what you need though. Lots of heavy color reqs? Mediocre. Just need to reliably hit each color? Pretty great.

I could update the list at some point, busy atm though.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

I agree that there have been several new cycles of interest.

In my opinion, the bridge cycle of indestructible artifact lands are especially noteworthy. Multi-color artifact decks that care about affinity, metalcraft, or "for each artifact" abilities can run these. Indestructability of your manabase can also matter in decks or metagames with land destruction. They can also fit into Salvaging Station packages, and can combine well with Artificer's Intuition and Crucible of Worlds or other land recursion. Notablity, intuition can use a land to find Amulet of Vigor to remove the downside.

I personally think that the are the best EtbT lands available in 2 color if you have any level of artifact synergies.
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
2 years ago
I agree that there have been several new cycles of interest.

In my opinion, the bridge cycle of indestructible artifact lands are especially noteworthy. Multi-color artifact decks that care about affinity, metalcraft, or "for each artifact" abilities can run these. Indestructability of your manabase can also matter in decks or metagames with land destruction. They can also fit into Salvaging Station packages, and can combine well with Artificer's Intuition and Crucible of Worlds or other land recursion. Notablity, intuition can use a land to find Amulet of Vigor to remove the downside.

I personally think that the are the best EtbT lands available in 2 color if you have any level of artifact synergies.
Them being indestructible helps for sure. In a vacuum, I think they're worse than temples (scry 1 is just nice QoL in casual places) and like I said last year 'round this time of necro, if you are in Green and/or possibly White, the ability to "fetch" bad typed duals like the Bicycle or snow duals might outweigh other considerations, especially for a uber-greedy two-colored deck and a 3+ color deck in those colors.

But these are for sure better than gainlands as far as "always EtB tapped" lands go, and I like them over the Odyssey Filters too in terms of "lands that are dead turn 1". And it doesn't take a ton of synergy to make them very good; another shout-out is the ability to fetch them with Trinket Mage for some extra fixing power. They also synergize with any "lands matter" commander like Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper or Mina and Denn, Wildborn who might be animating their lands regularly, so there's plenty of avenues for play.

For me personally, I'm a big fan of the Midnight/Vow "Huntlands" (Shattered Sanctum et al). In fact, as a hot take - I think they're top five duals for the format, losing out to the OG ABU Duals, Shocks, Fetches, and Battlebond Lands but coming out ahead of all others unless you're in a hyper-cEDH meta were you can't afford even the smallest chance of your turn 1 or 2 land EtB tapped. Unlike the staple checklands (Glacial Fortress for reference) and my sleeper favorite Tangolands (Canopy Vista), these don't punish you for having okay-to-great mana making them a lot better in 3+ color decks.

I'll share frustrations with the Snarls/Reveal lands as being a bit too awkward outside of fairly casual 2-color decks. I'm also testing Quandrix Campus is Volo because I don't own any Rainforests or Tropical Islands and wanted one more dual, and so far its been really underwhelming but still better than Thornwood Falls.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Hard to rank stuff like the indestructible artifact lands in a vacuum...if you're an artifact synergy deck, being an artifact is a huge bonus. If you aren't, it's probably a small downside (much smaller than if they weren't indestructible though). Assuming a non-artifact deck in a "normal" meta, I'd say they're somewhere around the guildgates. But if you care about artifacts or indestructibility, then they could be among the best options.

Triomes are great, especially with fetches. Probably around BBD duals. Biggest restriction is having the right colors ofc.

Campuses are...fine. Somewhere below temples but before gates. If you're interested in paying 4 to scry 1, your deck probably sucks.

Pathways I think are pretty solid overall. Probably just above fastlands?

Snow duals are guildgates, except they have the snow tag and type tags. Personally I'm skeptical of the utility of type tags since you have multiple better fetch targets, and I don't like running "x type matters" cards like cabal coffers in my multicolor decks. But if you care about snow, it could be valuable to have fetches hit multicolor snow lands. Overall rating is probably around the refuges, but some decks want them a lot.

Slowlands (has that already been taken?) seem fine. Meta dependent whether they're better or worse than fastlands. I guess they can't be much worse than checklands (which I think I overrated) since you only need 1 more land in play, and types don't matter. Probably just below painlands.
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Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

The new slowlands, as I call them (opposite of the fastlands) are pretty darn good IMHO. Of course, my group is relatively slower, more durdly, and closer to the old-style battlecruiser games that some people have lamented not having anymore, so that would influence my estimation pretty heavily. Regardless of that, though, they enter untapped any time past turn 3 and lack any other conditions whatsoever, which makes them pretty great in 2-color decks that don't especially care about basic types. In 3-color decks, I have enough options for fixing that are often ever-so-slightly better or more synergistic, but the slowlands still seem like a great option.

Bridges are of course great in artifact decks. Campuses are reasonable if you're going to run a tapland anyway, since the repeatable scry option is worth more than a lot of the other minor upsides IMHO. Pathways are okay, but the fact that they don't produce multiple colors means I only even consider them in 2-color decks, and only if I have some particular reason to like that specific card (the art, for example). The Snarls, I agree with Seth PBKASO, who has said on multiple occasions that he thinks they're called that because you snarl when you see them. I'm glad they finally finished one of their damn unfinished cycles after way too long, but why'd it have to be the worst one?
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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Yatsufusa
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Post by Yatsufusa » 2 years ago

Here's my rough gauge of priority rankings, within the context of a 3-colored deck, followed by a 2-colored one (past some point are lands I won't consider for 3c but will for 2c because 2c decks can't run multiples of the same cycle and have to dip to a larger pool of duals). I have a very high priority/bias for mana-tempo, so ETBT is a major factor and there's a pretty clear division between unconditional untapped, conditional untapped and absolute-ETBT lands for me. I will just use a Gruul, Simic, Jund and Temur example to indicate how complete a cycle is.

Tier 0
The cream of the crop, due to the nature of the formation it elevates Checklands as the premier "conditional" dual of choice

#1 Fetchlands + ABUR Duals + Shocklands
#2 Fetchlands + ABUR Duals
#3 Fetchlands + Shocklands
#4 Checklands (With #1, #2 or #3) (Rootbound Crag, Hinterland Harbor)

Tier 1
Without the quintessential combination, ABUR and Shocks still stand supreme and enough to support Checklands up as well.

#5 ABUR Duals (No Fetches) (Taiga, Tropical Island)
#6 Shocklands (No Fetches) (Stomping Ground, Breeding Pool)
#7 Painlands (Karplusan Forest, Yavimaya Coast)
#8 Checklands (With ABUR and/or Shocks) (Rootbound Crag, Hinterland Harbor)
#9 Multiplayer Lands (Spire Garden, Rejuvenating Springs)

Tier 1.5
They aren't quite as good as the Tier 1s in a vacuum, but are acceptable stand-ins for the Tier 1s if required.
*Horizon Lands can be better than painlands in land-recursion builds, but otherwise is technically "inferior" from a mana production standpoint.

#10* Horizon Lands (Horizon Canopy, Waterlogged Grove)
#11 Slowlands (Rockfall Vale, Dreamroot Cascade)
#12 Fetchlands (No ABUR and Shocks) (Wooded Foothills, Misty Rainforest)
#13 Pathways (Cragcrown Pathway // Timbercrown Pathway, Barkchannel Pathway // Tidechannel Pathway)
#14 Checklands (No ABUR and Shocks) (Rootbound Crag, Hinterland Harbor)

Tier 1.9
Shadowmoor Filters need support so in a vacuum rank lower but generally speaking as long as I have the fixing from Tier 0/1 settled in they are in all decklists to augment flexibility rather than as stand-ins of any kind, In the context of a 3-colored deck, ETBT is an acceptable drawback in exchange for all colors, that is why these cards fall into this awkward/unique Tier 1.9 section, as they essentially round up what I consider acceptable for 3-colored decks.

#15 Shadowmoor Filters (Fire-Lit Thicket, Flooded Grove)
#16 Triomes (Ketria Triome)
#17 Trilands (Savage Lands, Frontier Bivouac)

Tier 2
Cards that look like they could be 1.5, but are ultimately too stringent (and with the above tiers already loaded with choices), don't make the cut. However, they are perfectly good choices for 2C decks, where you have more spaces for different duals since you usually only use 1 per cycle, not 3.

#18 Tangos (with Fetches)
#19 Tangos (Cinder Glade)
#20 Reveal Lands / Snarls (Game Trail, Vineglimmer Snarl)

Tier 2.5
They're quirky in different ways outside of just a conditional ETB untapped condition, but are fun enough to fill end the tail-end slots for 2C decks. Yes, I don't like Fastlands because of how fast they expire.
*Tribal Lands work on the assumption you have at least 1 card for a gamble, if not it drops a tier and in the proper tribal deck can go all the way to even above Shocklands. Its position is sort of arbitrary on the fact it could ETB untapped.

#21 Odyssey Filters (Mossfire Valley)
#22 Tainted Lands (Tainted Field)
#23 Storage Lands (Fungal Reaches)
#24 Karoo Lands (Gruul Turf, Simic Growth Chamber)
#25 Fastlands (Copperline Gorge, Botanical Sanctum)
#26* Tribal Lands (Wanderwine Hub, Ancient Amphitheater)

Tier 3
I make it clear my disdain for ETBT mana-fixing lands and personally don't run any of them, but I ranked them all the same and if I had to build with them, this would be my priority order, favoring fetch-utility (even if it's slow), followed by other ETB triggers, then by activated abilities and lastly fetching only basics (because it's already slow). If you have somewhat an okay base from anything above this tier, I might even recommend just running Basics for better tempo.

#27 Bicycle Lands (With Fetches)
#28 Mirage Fetches (With Shocklands)
#29 Mirage Fetches (With Tangos)
#30 Temples (Temple of Abandon, Temple of Mystery)
#31 Gain Lands (Rugged Highlands, Thornwood Falls)
#32 Refuges (Kazandu Refuge)
#33 Bicycle Lands (No Fetches) (Sheltered Thicket)
#34 Manlands (Raging Ravine, Lumbering Falls)
#35 Campuses (Quandrix Campus)
#36 Mirage Fetches (Only Basics) (Mountain Valley)
#37 Panoramas (Jund Panorama)

Tier 3.5
They ETBT and don't even do anything else outside of specific type synergies (which is much narrower than the Tier 3s), as can be seen by the number of asterisks. In the correct deck they could be elevated to the peak of Tier 3, but even then the sheer ETBT puts them behind tempo compared to anything above Tier 3. Without synergy I would really recommend Basics over these for better tempo consistency.

#38 Invasion Duals (Shivan Oasis)
#39* Guildgates (Gruul Guildgate, Simic Guidgate)
#40* Snow Duals (Highland Forest, Rimewood Falls)
#41* Bridges (Slagwoods Bridge, Tanglepool Bridge)
#42 ETBT Painlands (Skyshroud Forest)

Tier 4
Please just run Basics. You lose way too much tempo playing these lands.

#43 Kamigawa Stucklands (Pinecrest Ridge)
#44 Tempest Stucklands (Mogg Hollows)
#45 Homelands Trifilters (Koskun Keep)
#46 Lairs (Darigaaz's Caldera)
#47 Ice Age Depletion Lands (Timberline Ridge)

Remember, this is just ultimately just my personal rankings and probably inaccurate because in practice I essentially don't even consider the bottom half of the rankings to even exist for most part anyway.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Yatsufusa wrote:
2 years ago
#16 Triomes (Ketria Triome)
#17 Trilands (Savage Lands, Frontier Bivouac)
Yatsufusa wrote:
2 years ago
#18 Tangos (with Fetches)
I can't put tangos behind triomes, much less trilands. The ability to enter untapped off a fetch is just so damn good.
Yatsufusa wrote:
2 years ago
#4 Checklands (With #1, #2 or #3) (Rootbound Crag, Hinterland Harbor)
No way man. Checklands don't have basic land types!
Yatsufusa wrote:
2 years ago
#27 Bicycle Lands (With Fetches)
Underrating fetchability in 2 and 3 color decks I think.



Not too disagreeable otherwise though I am pretty low on mirage fetches for any purpose myself.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Underrating fetchability in 2 and 3 color decks I think.
Fetchability is so overrated. Yes, it's amazing on duals and shocks, and nice on triomes when you're in those colors, but the only time I'd even consider a tango land's fetchability relevant is when I'm in 2 colors AND don't have the money for an ABU dual. And even then, once I've already fetched the shock and bicycle land, I'd almost always rather fetch a basic in case of BM or other hate. It would be a lot more relevant if fetches were $3, but where prices stand now, if you can afford fetches you can afford a shock easily.

I do think checklands are probably further down the list than I initially had them. Probably below painlands? Somewhere in there. It's not so much the lack of basic typing as much as the likelihood of not having the right types, especially in 3+ colors or when running a lot of nonbasics.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Fetchability is so overrated. Yes, it's amazing on duals and shocks, and nice on triomes when you're in those colors, but the only time I'd even consider a tango land's fetchability relevant is when I'm in 2 colors AND don't have the money for an ABU dual. And even then, once I've already fetched the shock and bicycle land, I'd almost always rather fetch a basic in case of BM or other hate. It would be a lot more relevant if fetches were $3, but where prices stand now, if you can afford fetches you can afford a shock easily.

I do think checklands are probably further down the list than I initially had them. Probably below painlands? Somewhere in there. It's not so much the lack of basic typing as much as the likelihood of not having the right types, especially in 3+ colors or when running a lot of nonbasics.
Yeah I think we just disagree on it. I'd rather take the small hit of Prairie Stream coming in tapped than running out later. But I am a major Crucible of Worlds fiend and run a fairly large number of basics and basic fetching tech, and pay a lot of attention to keeping my pip counts down and what not.

I'll play them before bicycles unless I am in Life from the Loam colors and plan to do the loam/cycling land tech.

I don't always run all the on-color tangoes, but I usually run at least one in a 3 color deck. Zero in a 4 color deck but 4 color decks BLEH.

I 100% run them in every 2 color deck that has one, and it's constantly annoying to me that we don't have the enemy colored ones yet

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah I think we just disagree on it. I'd rather take the small hit of Prairie Stream coming in tapped than running out later. But I am a major Crucible of Worlds fiend and run a fairly large number of basics and basic fetching tech, and pay a lot of attention to keeping my pip counts down and what not.
How are you going to run out of fetch targets if you have a lot of basics?

The time when having good fixing matters the most is early. By late-game, the number of lands you've got will smooth out any bad RNG that might leave you short a color. But early is the time when tangos are at their worst. It's like win-more, except fixing-more.

Unless you're worried about nonbasic hate, I'm pretty sure the optimal 3c+ manabase has hardly any basics. I would never run a tango outside of 2c, and even then, only on a budget. Can't remember if I still have on in my Kaervek, but that'd be the only deck of mine that might have one.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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