Why is everyone in cEDH keep calling about 'ban' Flash thing?

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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

I mean, realistically, if the format were to splinter I'd simply build two decks optimized for both "regular EDH" and "competitive EDH," and while I'd rather not have to do it I'd do it anyway. I still personally feel that splintering the format would be making a mountain out of a molehill and an excuse for players who don't want to deal with strategies they deem too good, and that as previously stated, rule 0'ing a competitive format is like going to a chess tournament and complaining when people don't fall for Scholar's Mate. Still, you are right: the "simple solution," a.k.a. wait it out, is something the majority of cEDH players aren't willing to accept. So in that way we agree, even if we disagree on the right solutions.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

I think it's a step too far myself, too. I think the ideal solution is to wait it out until something better comes along or a better answer comes along. That could take a while though, and in the meantime people are having miserable games and apparently there's a reasonable lack of diversity in the meta, so....I dunno. Asking how much patience people have is like asking how long a piece of string is.

I don't necessarily disagree regarding rule 0 and a competitive format either. It interacts weirdly with cEDH if at all, and that's a problem moving forward that probably needs addressing. It's sort of one of the defining features of the format, so it's worth exploring how it can be applied to that part of the community in a way that's more acceptable.
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Post by Ardeyn » 4 years ago

When watching the various cEDH YouTube channels Thassa's Oracle seems to have a very homogenizing effect; even Hulk decks now tend to win with Consult Oracle lines. This to me is much more disturbing - or rather boring - than having Flash Hulk as the de facto best deck in the meta.
There seem to be quite enough tools to fight against Flash Hulk, thus (Warning! Anecdotal Evidence) the Hulk Player rarely wins on camera. And from my limited experience playing against the deck, I've seen it win once. Granted I'm much more of a "Casually Competitive" Player and the Flash Hulk Deck I occasionally play against might not be (fully) optimized.
There seem to be a lot fewer things one can do against Consult Oracle. Funnily enough, the best ones - such as Trickbind or Nimble Obstructionist are quite versatile and work very well against Protean Hulk also.
So, there seems plenty of room to adapt still to fight the boogeyman of cEDH and leave Flash to be enjoyed by the more casual crowd.

I'm really curious as to why the cEDH community does not see the homogenity in the wake of Thassa's Oracle as much more of a Problem?

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Ardeyn wrote:
4 years ago
When watching the various cEDH YouTube channels Thassa's Oracle seems to have a very homogenizing effect; even Hulk decks now tend to win with Consult Oracle lines. This to me is much more disturbing - or rather boring - than having Flash Hulk as the de facto best deck in the meta.
There seem to be quite enough tools to fight against Flash Hulk, thus (Warning! Anecdotal Evidence) the Hulk Player rarely wins on camera. And from my limited experience playing against the deck, I've seen it win once. Granted I'm much more of a "Casually Competitive" Player and the Flash Hulk Deck I occasionally play against might not be (fully) optimized.
There seem to be a lot fewer things one can do against Consult Oracle. Funnily enough, the best ones - such as Trickbind or Nimble Obstructionist are quite versatile and work very well against Protean Hulk also.
So, there seems plenty of room to adapt still to fight the boogeyman of cEDH and leave Flash to be enjoyed by the more casual crowd.

I'm really curious as to why the cEDH community does not see the homogenity in the wake of Thassa's Oracle as much more of a Problem?

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Oracle is definitely an issue, The problem with it is it's a pretty fair fun card that has a niche in mono blue devotion strategies or as the third piece in casual infinites.

Oracle probably sees way more casual play than flash already, so should be completely off the table in my book.

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Post by Spleenface » 4 years ago

Ardeyn wrote:
4 years ago
When watching the various cEDH YouTube channels Thassa's Oracle seems to have a very homogenizing effect; even Hulk decks now tend to win with Consult Oracle lines. This to me is much more disturbing - or rather boring - than having Flash Hulk as the de facto best deck in the meta.
There seem to be quite enough tools to fight against Flash Hulk, thus (Warning! Anecdotal Evidence) the Hulk Player rarely wins on camera. And from my limited experience playing against the deck, I've seen it win once. Granted I'm much more of a "Casually Competitive" Player and the Flash Hulk Deck I occasionally play against might not be (fully) optimized.
There seem to be a lot fewer things one can do against Consult Oracle. Funnily enough, the best ones - such as Trickbind or Nimble Obstructionist are quite versatile and work very well against Protean Hulk also.
So, there seems plenty of room to adapt still to fight the boogeyman of cEDH and leave Flash to be enjoyed by the more casual crowd.

I'm really curious as to why the cEDH community does not see the homogenity in the wake of Thassa's Oracle as much more of a Problem?

Ardeyn
Consult Oracle is really, really strong, but it's not inherently out of line with what the rest of the format is doing. UUB vs {4} to play and activate scepter, for example, is not obviously better, and while not needing the board state is nice, it's a pretty low requirement.

Flash is substantially lower in mana cost than any other wincon, and also instant speed. The instant speed and low cost combine to give the hulk player what is effectively a stax piece, purely by holding up 1U, you have to respect flash.

This is what leads to the cagey, value-centric, card quality focused interaction heavy decks like consult being so good, they very effectively play the game hulk forces everyone to play. With Flash gone, that style of play isn't quite as valuable, and it would also unlock a lot of hate pieces that currently have a tendency to hand games to hulk, such as Blood Moon, Rule of Law and Trinisphere. These effects are all very strong against 4c Metaball consult decks, and one of the things they do is make it harder to play interaction. Making it harder to play interaction currently benefits flash hulk over everyone else, which is why those effects have decreased in popularity, which in turn unlocks consult.

While some consult pieces might appear on an idealized "competitive balance" banlist, the fact is, we do share a banlist with many players who don't care about these cards, and minimizing collateral damage is important. Ultimately, I think that while a banlist with at least one consult piece gone (my vote would be tainted pact) as well as Flash would be healthier than a meta with Flash gone and consult untouched, I think either of those options would be leagues healthier than the current meta, and we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And RE Hulk being under control, all the major online tournaments for the last 2 years or so have had at least 2 hulk decks in the final pod, (with the most recent online tournament having 6 hulk decks in top 8), and according to the recently started cEDH metagame project, it's clocking a winrate above 40%, with enough games to bring lower bound of the CP 95% CI up to 34%

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Would banning Hulk, rather than Flash, solve the problem just as effectively? Is there anything Flash does that would be as problematic as Hulk? In casual, there are other avenues to abuse Hulk into combos that are better than the ways to abuse flash.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago
Would banning Hulk, rather than Flash, solve the problem just as effectively? Is there anything Flash does that would be as problematic as Hulk? In casual, there are other avenues to abuse Hulk into combos that are better than the ways to abuse flash.
I'd wondered about this too tbh. Hulk does little for casual outside of combo, so I strongly doubt it'd be missed overly.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Protean hulk surely sees more casual play than flash does. I think it's probable it never should have been unbanned, but now that the cat's out of the bag I'm not sure it's going back in without a fight :)

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Protean hulk surely sees more casual play than flash does. I think it's probable it never should have been unbanned, but now that the cat's out of the bag I'm not sure it's going back in without a fight :)
I dunno, I actually can't remember the last game I saw it drop, or the last decklist I saw it in. I don't think it'd be overly missed from the casual scene.
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Post by MrMystery314 » 4 years ago

As much as I personally wouldn't complain too much about either a Flash or Hulk ban (maybe waiting until the next few sets drop in case anything changes with that), I believe it's inevitable all competitive formats have their bad periods. Most of them have had/are having those recently anyway.

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Post by Ardeyn » 4 years ago

Spleenface wrote:
4 years ago
Consult Oracle is really, really strong, but it's not inherently out of line with what the rest of the format is doing. UUB vs {4} to play and activate scepter, for example, is not obviously better, and while not needing the board state is nice, it's a pretty low requirement.

Flash is substantially lower in mana cost than any other wincon, and also instant speed. The instant speed and low cost combine to give the hulk player what is effectively a stax piece, purely by holding up 1U, you have to respect flash.

This is what leads to the cagey, value-centric, card quality focused interaction heavy decks like consult being so good, they very effectively play the game hulk forces everyone to play. With Flash gone, that style of play isn't quite as valuable, and it would also unlock a lot of hate pieces that currently have a tendency to hand games to hulk, such as Blood Moon, Rule of Law and Trinisphere. These effects are all very strong against 4c Metaball consult decks, and one of the things they do is make it harder to play interaction. Making it harder to play interaction currently benefits flash hulk over everyone else, which is why those effects have decreased in popularity, which in turn unlocks consult.

While some consult pieces might appear on an idealized "competitive balance" banlist, the fact is, we do share a banlist with many players who don't care about these cards, and minimizing collateral damage is important. Ultimately, I think that while a banlist with at least one consult piece gone (my vote would be tainted pact) as well as Flash would be healthier than a meta with Flash gone and consult untouched, I think either of those options would be leagues healthier than the current meta, and we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And RE Hulk being under control, all the major online tournaments for the last 2 years or so have had at least 2 hulk decks in the final pod, (with the most recent online tournament having 6 hulk decks in top 8), and according to the recently started cEDH metagame project, it's clocking a winrate above 40%, with enough games to bring lower bound of the CP 95% CI up to 34%
Thanks for this insight.
I actually am not advocating an Oracle ban. It's just curious to me, that people seem to be ok with everyone playing the same Wincon in every blue inclusive deck. This makes cEDH games rather boring to watch on YouTube currently.

I don't really care about Flash. Even though I try and play highly optimized decks, I still can't bring myself to only look for the very best cards and decks. Flash and its play patterns is just not a card that appeals to me. Besides it has atrocious art. :?
However, I really enjoy playing with and against Protean Hulk. I see it most often in Karador lists as combo enabler but also as value piece. I myself play a rather tuned Varolz deck with Pattern of Rebirth and Natural Order to get it out quickly. The card is very good without Flash, but needs more work to get results. It can create very interesting, high level decks.
I would really hate to lose Hulk.

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Post by if4ko » 4 years ago

The long arguments have already been said, but tl;dr: It's to cEDH what Biorhythm, Sway, Worldfire, and Coalition Victory are to the casual side of the format.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

if4ko wrote:
4 years ago
The long arguments have already been said, but tl;dr: It's to cEDH what Biorhythm, Sway, Worldfire, and Coalition Victory are to the casual side of the format.
That's a poor example. It's more like what prophet of kruphix or sylvan primordial were.

The cards you listed are pure jank and would see next to no play.

Mayne biorhythm? But it's not really that casually desirable..

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Post by if4ko » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
if4ko wrote:
4 years ago
The long arguments have already been said, but tl;dr: It's to cEDH what Biorhythm, Sway, Worldfire, and Coalition Victory are to the casual side of the format.
That's a poor example. It's more like what prophet of kruphix or sylvan primordial were.

The cards you listed are pure jank and would see next to no play.

Mayne biorhythm? But it's not really that casually desirable..
I'm thinking more in the "cause players to win out of nowhere" aspect than the power aspect. The cards I mentioned are obviously a lot less powerful than Flash, but they're all banned because they're anticlimactic ends to the Commander journey. It requires little setup to win off of Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, or Worldfire, and there's no indicator that a Coalition Victory is coming. In fact, I'd say Flash is even more concerning than the other four because it provides the same effect at instant speed.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

There's a distinction to be made between one piece of a high powered 7 card combo package and a selection of goofy cards that do goofy stuff and probably would not be banned today, remaining on the banlist largely because of inertia. (Nothing good is going to happen from unbanning them but if they were printed today no one would play them)

When it comes down to it high end combo pieces are not ruining edh for most of the community. I would bet that purphoros has ended more lives than flash personally at my shop heh.

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Post by if4ko » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
There's a distinction to be made between one piece of a high powered 7 card combo package and a selection of goofy cards that do goofy stuff and probably would not be banned today, remaining on the banlist largely because of inertia. (Nothing good is going to happen from unbanning them but if they were printed today no one would play them)

When it comes down to it high end combo pieces are not ruining edh for most of the community. I would bet that purphoros has ended more lives than flash personally at my shop heh.
I don't believe the distinction of power is particularly relevant in this instance. It's impossible to police and ban every high-powered combo for balance reasons.

My issue is that most uses of Flash outside of cEDH wouldn't fly at the average table. At my LGS (which is more of a 6-8 out of 10 meta than a 4-6), we have someone who Flash Hulks to cheat out a Turn 2 Etali. He could easily replace that with a Ruric Thar or a Consecrated Sphinx for more degeneracy. Aside from that, there's Flashing out an Academy Rector for Omniscience, Dovescape, or whatever hateful staxy enchantment your heart desires. We haven't even gotten to the other oppressive death triggers like Bearer of the Heavens, Kokusho, or Mindslicer. In fact, I've only heard of one Flash Hulk use that would fly at the average casual-to-focused EDH table. For all this talk about cEDH being a minority, I'd be willing to bet that the players who use Flash fairly are even smaller.

There's also the various philosophical issues (which will derail the thread), and the most popular solution wrt cEDH doing nothing to stop people from breaking the format, but that's another discussion for another time.

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Post by Dragoon » 4 years ago

if4ko wrote:
4 years ago
My issue is that most uses of Flash outside of cEDH wouldn't fly at the average table. At my LGS (which is more of a 6-8 out of 10 meta than a 4-6), we have someone who Flash Hulks to cheat out a Turn 2 Etali. He could easily replace that with a Ruric Thar or a Consecrated Sphinx for more degeneracy. Aside from that, there's Flashing out an Academy Rector for Omniscience, Dovescape, or whatever hateful staxy enchantment your heart desires. We haven't even gotten to the other oppressive death triggers like Bearer of the Heavens, Kokusho, or Mindslicer. In fact, I've only heard of one Flash Hulk use that would fly at the average casual-to-focused EDH table. For all this talk about cEDH being a minority, I'd be willing to bet that the players who use Flash fairly are even smaller.
Honestly, cheating Etali turn 2 (or any other big monster, really) isn't even that impressive to me. After all, there is a turn 1 6/6 flying lifelink in the format. You could also go Entomb > Exhume > Any big monster in your deck. But if you're playing like that, you know what you're doing. The point of the banlist is to avoid any accidental and unwanted social awkwardness and unfun situations. If you want to break the format, you can, but it's usually more fun when you don't.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

if4ko wrote:
4 years ago
We haven't even gotten to the other oppressive death triggers like Bearer of the Heavens, Kokusho, or Mindslicer.
If someone flashed in kokusho on turn 2 I'd shrug.

Mindslicer is nasty but also probably not actually that great. It'd be hard to set up well for it that quickly. Mindslicer is just a nasty card regardless, and one that you probably know you're playing mean if you play it. Same deal for bearer of the heavens. Honestly if you do it turn 2, that's probably less nasty than jokulhaups on turn 6 in a casual game, since people won't have committed much.

Considering these are all 2-card combos, I think they're pretty fair for 75% play.

I threw flash into my thassa deck. Haven't drawn it yet, but getting to instant-speed a powerful ETB for 2 mana is pretty neat.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I've seen a number of flash rectors for omniscience, oath of teferi, doubling season and flash arena rector for ugin. Neither are out of bounds at the power level we play at.

I wouldn't miss it but it's not exactly a scourge locally.

Remember casual is not kid gloves. It's a spectrum of power and the floor has been rising rapidly for years.

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
There's a distinction to be made between one piece of a high powered 7 card combo package and a selection of goofy cards that do goofy stuff and probably would not be banned today, remaining on the banlist largely because of inertia. (Nothing good is going to happen from unbanning them but if they were printed today no one would play them)

When it comes down to it high end combo pieces are not ruining edh for most of the community. I would bet that purphoros has ended more lives than flash personally at my shop heh.

People were saying that about Biorythm et Al in 2012, then wizards printed worldfire and it was quickly banned. I have no doubt that the same decisions would be made today, as the RC recently updated the banlist philosophy and maintained the points that got those cards banned in the first place.

The difference between those cards and flash, besides power level, is that we have no trouble coming up with "fair" uses for flash, ranging from cheating strong etbs/ltbs to cheating out scary threats with rectors. Those other cards do only two things, anticlimactically win the game on the spot or figuratively flip the table by negating what happened before and just messing %$#% up. Flash CAN do both of this things, but needs more help to just flip the table, but it also does other things. Thus, those other cards are banned not just to prevent people from playing them, but to show people what not to aim for. Upheaval being banned doesn't just say not to play upheaval, it says you shouldn't flash bearer of heavens just for %$#% and giggles.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago

People were saying that about Biorythm et Al in 2012, then wizards printed worldfire and it was quickly banned. I have no doubt that the same decisions would be made today, as the RC recently updated the banlist philosophy and maintained the points that got those cards banned in the first place.
And yet 2012 and 2020 are 8 years apart and not a single card has been banned like that since worldfire, despite shaman forgotten ways, triskaidekaphobia, approach of the second sun, biovisionary, mechanized production, maze's end, jace, wielder of mysteries, liliana's contract, hellkite tyrant, simic ascendancy, revel in riches and that's just the recently printed win the game effects not the windmill stupid sorceries.

To be fair there have not been many cards after the pattern of worldfire and sway of the stars but plenty of 'you win the game' effects, many of them far more efficient than CV.

The format is so completely different now - between 2012 and 2020 than between like 2009 and 2012 is night and day. People would look at Worldfire and laugh if printed today. There're so many combos that are all good cards now that the setup involved in winning with worldfire is not worth it.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I'm pretty sure worldfire is only banned because of jhoira of the ghitu. I guess you could also float mana and cast your commander for the win too.

Anyway, none of those other "win the game cards" are really comparable to CV or worldfire et al because they generally have to survive a trip around the table in order to win (although of course there are potential combos to avoid that...I still remember fondly the time I enlightened tutored for test of endurance in response to my opponents vaevictis asmadi, the dire trigger, with my turn next and everyone tapped out. Good times). And Triskaidekaphobia is terrible btw, especially in a format of fetchlands, painlands, etc it's almost impossible to pull off, and at best it's a slightly more powerful hidetsugu's second rite.

I'm personally ok with CV getting unbanned, although I also don't have any interest in playing it and am fine with it remaining banned.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago

Mayne biorhythm? But it's not really that casually desirable..
There is already a legal byorhythm. Shaman of forgotten ways

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
4 years ago
There is already a legal byorhythm. Shaman of forgotten ways
People gotta stop bringing this card up. The problem with biorhythm is that it can kill people out of nowhere. a creature with a tap ability is a very different thing. Every color has the ability to kill the creature if the ability is likely to kill them. Plus 11 mana is a lot more than 8 mana, and you've gotta pay for the creature first as well (and meet the power requirements).

It's really not the same thing at all.
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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
ilovesaprolings wrote:
4 years ago
There is already a legal byorhythm. Shaman of forgotten ways
People gotta stop bringing this card up. The problem with biorhythm is that it can kill people out of nowhere. a creature with a tap ability is a very different thing. Every color has the ability to kill the creature if the ability is likely to kill them. Plus 11 mana is a lot more than 8 mana, and you've gotta pay for the creature first as well (and meet the power requirements).

It's really not the same thing at all.
As someone who plays Shaman regularly, can confirm. Not the same thing. 8 mana early is nothing for green; 11 mana, 8 power creatures and waiting a turn cycle for summoning sickness to wear off is significantly more hoops to jump through.

That being said, he can still end the game quick. Turn 5 is my quickest and it was with this guy. What can I say, I had a dream hand.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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