Why is everyone in cEDH keep calling about 'ban' Flash thing?

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ParadoxEngine
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Post by ParadoxEngine » 4 years ago

I know that in cEDH, currently 'Sushi Hulk' is the only Tier 0 divine deck and followed by Tier 1 Consultation / Tainted Pact combo lists. and everybody else is Tier 2 or less. If RC bans flash, Hulk decks die off. then what? Consultation gonna took that place and oops, same problem rises. Deck diversity will also die off and everyone's gonna play same kind of combo deck over and over. What about calling for not 'ban', actually 'unban' cards for fresh meta? For example ummm... PE? It'll make some commanders (Arcum, Sisay, Xira, Dralnu) revive, Tier 2 decks can try that in their own lists and compete with Sushi decks, Deck Diversity rises. Casual playgroups already have their own house-ban lists so it will not hurt so much. I think it's fine solution for Flash problem. Instead of more ban, Unbanning some cards.
Last edited by ParadoxEngine 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

by Xira do you mean Xira Arien? I love her and hadn't realized she was good on any competitive level!

many cEDH comments on here feel tunnel vision-ish. most commander players are not experiencing your meta and consider Paradox Engine the dumb combo engine with a million backs.

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Post by ParadoxEngine » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
by Xira do you mean Xira Arien? I love her and hadn't realized she was good on any competitive level!

many cEDH comments on here feel tunnel vision-ish. most commander players are not experiencing your meta and consider Paradox Engine the dumb combo engine with a million backs.
Paradox Engine is kinda dumb, and I know some player feels bad about it. But there's reddit thread that many people in casual doesn't care about PE ban or unban. They said they didn't even affected by it.






and yeah, although paradox engine IS my favorite card, I don't care if the unban contains paradox engine. Any card unban will be welcomed.
I have a dream that one day Paradox Engine will be un-banned and live out the true meaning of its creed.

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Post by papa_funk » 4 years ago

Ah yes, the thread that started with a massive inaccuracy and went downhill from there.

You might want to scroll down in that thread. Turns out Reddit is a bad place for expressing opinions that don't match with the hive mind.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

PE was a damned blight on my community. If you played a dork or artifact deck it probably combos with your commander and no one could resist it. Stupid long turns, remove on sight, played in a wide array of middling power decks.

It was basically slightly higher powered slightly narrower prophet of kruphix, destroying the game time economy and being a must play in a large number of archetypes.

PE was an engine artifact that approached 8% of decks on edhrec at its peak. There was a thread on nexus where I compared its prevalence to other popular cards and it was mind blowing to me.

I also ran numbers on what percentage of decks that ran PE were cedh decks and it was a small fraction (25% or less iirc).

And as icing on the cake the card is a roughly as broken as metalworker from mana generation perspective in a much wider variety of decks. And this is in addition to a much higher combo rate.

Good riddance and stay gone please PE.

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Post by ParadoxEngine » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
PE was a damned blight on my community. If you played a dork or artifact deck it probably combos with your commander and no one could resist it. Stupid long turns, remove on sight, played in a wide array of middling power decks.

It was basically slightly higher powered slightly narrower prophet of kruphix, destroying the game time economy and being a must play in a large number of archetypes.

PE was an engine artifact that approached 8% of decks on edhrec at its peak. There was a thread on nexus where I compared its prevalence to other popular cards and it was mind blowing to me.

I also ran numbers on what percentage of decks that ran PE were cedh decks and it was a small fraction (25% or less iirc).

And as icing on the cake the card is a roughly as broken as metalworker from mana generation perspective in a much wider variety of decks. And this is in addition to a much higher combo rate.

Good riddance and stay gone please PE.

Yeah, I know it may hurt some games. but I'm here talking about only competitive metas. and you said It's so OP and powerful, Why don't everyone use it and PE takes same percentage as Cyclonic Rift or even Sol Ring size? because, as I mentioned, casual players can just avoid playing them. Flash Hulk is degenerate too, but do players use them at casual? No. except for some stupid pubstompers. Normal playgroups limits their power level to some degrees and if someone who exceeds it? poof, he's banned from that group. And why only 25% runs PE on cedh? because it's not panacea. It's just one of completely fair engine on competitive scene. and No one knows what 25% PE decks can do when they come back on this Sushi Hulk meta. It can be anti-hulk machine 5000, or join the tier 2-3 slot, who knows? I just love many decks lying around in the meta, not just Consultation or Hulk. And bringing back PE was the first idea on my mind to bring more commanders to cEDH viable and make meta more diverse. You said you run Opus Thief so you could understand.

And I'd say once more, PE was an example and it was just an idea. I'm not claiming about PE unban, Any card unbanned will be welcomed.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

ParadoxEngine wrote:
4 years ago


Yeah, I know it may be a criticial hit for causal games. but I'm here talking about competitive metas. and you said It's so OP and powerful, Why don't everyone use it and PE takes same percentage as Cyclonic Rift or even Sol Ring size? because, as I mentioned, casual players can just avoid playing them. Flash Hulk is degenerate too, but do players use them at casual? No. except for some stupid pubstompers. Normal playgroups limits their power level to some degrees and if someone who exceeds it? poof, he's banned from that group. And why only 25% runs PE on cedh? because it's not panacea. It's just one of completely fair engine on competitive scene. You said you run Opus Thief so you could understand.

And I'd say once more, PE was an example. I'm not claiming about PE unban, Any card unbanned will be welcomed.
Find me where I said it's OP / powerful. It's not. It's a middling card at best in the competitive scene, I doubt it would see much play these days with how far sushi and consult have come. But in the casual scene it's a blight and that's why it needs to stay banned.

If the RC is hesitant to ban a grossly overpowered card that doesn't see *that* much casual play, why would they want to unban a middling power card that would have no real effect on the competitive meta, but was very toxic in casual play?

You literally requested an unban of PE in the OP as an example of unbannings that could help. I feel like I can fairly interpret this thread as at least partially a request for a PE unban

In the broader scheme of things, basically any card they could unban short of time vault would have no effect on the CEDH meta except to make hulk decks faster.

So in short unbannings are not a solution that will do anything to help anyone in the competitive scene and may hurt the casual scene.

also: Can a Mod please move this to the CEDH or the Rules forum?

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Post by ParadoxEngine » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
ParadoxEngine wrote:
4 years ago


Yeah, I know it may be a criticial hit for causal games. but I'm here talking about competitive metas. and you said It's so OP and powerful, Why don't everyone use it and PE takes same percentage as Cyclonic Rift or even Sol Ring size? because, as I mentioned, casual players can just avoid playing them. Flash Hulk is degenerate too, but do players use them at casual? No. except for some stupid pubstompers. Normal playgroups limits their power level to some degrees and if someone who exceeds it? poof, he's banned from that group. And why only 25% runs PE on cedh? because it's not panacea. It's just one of completely fair engine on competitive scene. You said you run Opus Thief so you could understand.

And I'd say once more, PE was an example. I'm not claiming about PE unban, Any card unbanned will be welcomed.
Find me where I said it's OP / powerful. It's not. It's a middling card at best in the competitive scene, I doubt it would see much play these days with how far sushi and consult have come. But in the casual scene it's a blight and that's why it needs to stay banned.

If the RC is hesitant to ban a grossly overpowered card that doesn't see *that* much casual play, why would they want to unban a middling power card that would have no real effect on the competitive meta, but was very toxic in casual play?

You literally requested an unban of PE in the OP as an example of unbannings that could help. I feel like I can fairly interpret this thread as at least partially a request for a PE unban

In the broader scheme of things, basically any card they could unban short of time vault would have no effect on the CEDH meta except to make hulk decks faster.

So in short unbannings are not a solution that will do anything to help anyone in the competitive scene and may hurt the casual scene.

also: Can a Mod please move this to the CEDH or the Rules forum?

Yeah, I understand all what you said. If casual people do things with Paradox Engine without avoiding, that is a bad stuff. Thank you for your reply. But still, I want a new card to freshen the current cEDH meta. Sushi Hulk or Consultation is just extraordinary strong.
I have a dream that one day Paradox Engine will be un-banned and live out the true meaning of its creed.

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Post by sjuotori » 4 years ago

ParadoxEngine wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
PE was a damned blight on my community. If you played a dork or artifact deck it probably combos with your commander and no one could resist it. Stupid long turns, remove on sight, played in a wide array of middling power decks.

It was basically slightly higher powered slightly narrower prophet of kruphix, destroying the game time economy and being a must play in a large number of archetypes.

PE was an engine artifact that approached 8% of decks on edhrec at its peak. There was a thread on nexus where I compared its prevalence to other popular cards and it was mind blowing to me.

I also ran numbers on what percentage of decks that ran PE were cedh decks and it was a small fraction (25% or less iirc).

And as icing on the cake the card is a roughly as broken as metalworker from mana generation perspective in a much wider variety of decks. And this is in addition to a much higher combo rate.

Good riddance and stay gone please PE.

Yeah, I know it may hurt some games. but I'm here talking about only competitive metas. and you said It's so OP and powerful, Why don't everyone use it and PE takes same percentage as Cyclonic Rift or even Sol Ring size? because, as I mentioned, casual players can just avoid playing them. Flash Hulk is degenerate too, but do players use them at casual? No. except for some stupid pubstompers. Normal playgroups limits their power level to some degrees and if someone who exceeds it? poof, he's banned from that group. And why only 25% runs PE on cedh? because it's not panacea. It's just one of completely fair engine on competitive scene. and No one knows what 25% PE decks can do when they come back on this Sushi Hulk meta. It can be anti-hulk machine 5000, or join the tier 2-3 slot, who knows? I just love many decks lying around in the meta, not just Consultation or Hulk. And bringing back PE was the first idea on my mind to bring more commanders to cEDH viable and make meta more diverse. You said you run Opus Thief so you could understand.

And I'd say once more, PE was an example and it was just an idea. I'm not claiming about PE unban, Any card unbanned will be welcomed.

ur statement applies to every commander banned cards....not only pe. "too strong? don't play it then!" it's not very good logic. however, i also want my good old friend pe back. the card was fun itself for me.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

ParadoxEngine wrote:
4 years ago

Yeah, I understand all what you said. If casual people do things with Paradox Engine without avoiding, that is a bad stuff. Thank you for your reply. But still, I want a new card to freshen the current cEDH meta. Sushi Hulk or Consultation is just extraordinary strong.
Well, you could try refusing to play against it and not building it I guess. I don't understand why everyone else is supposed to rule 0 paradox engine out if you guys can't rule 0 flash out.

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Post by shandiris » 4 years ago

Why does CEDH not have it's own ban list?
On a similar note: why are they playing a format which is inherently unbalanced (combo decks fighting different combo decks) and then whine that their meta is wack?

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Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

I just hope that they don't ban Tymna the weaver so I can continue running her in my cleric tribal deck.
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Post by HoffOccultist » 4 years ago

ParadoxEngine wrote:
4 years ago
I know that in cEDH, currently 'Sushi Hulk' is the only Tier 0 divine deck and followed by Tier 1 Consultation / Tainted Pact combo lists. and everybody else is Tier 2 or less. If RC bans flash, Hulk decks die off. then what? Consultation gonna took that place and oops, same problem rises. Deck diversity will also die off and everyone's gonna play same kind of combo deck over and over. What about calling for not 'ban', actually 'unban' cards for fresh meta? For example ummm... PE? It'll make some commanders (Arcum, Sisay, Xira, Dralnu) revive, Tier 2 decks can try that in their own lists and compete with Sushi decks, Deck Diversity rises. Casual playgroups already have their own house-ban lists so it will not hurt so much. I think it's fine solution for Flash problem. Instead of more ban, Unbanning some cards.

In cEDH metas, Flash Hulk decks appear to be notably stronger than anything else, for a number of different reasons, including the speed of the combo, the compact nature of it, and the difficulty of interacting with it in any meaningful way. Deck diversity is already stunningly low.

That said, to assume that Demonic Consultation based decks would take over the format is unfounded speculation. While that could be true, we have to remember that Consult decks arose as an answer to the older versions of Flash Hulk decks--specifically designed to prey on Flash Hulk. With Flash Hulk now at the top spot, we would expect to see Consult decks do better since there's more Flash Hulk, and that's what they're designed to beat. But we don't see that impact at all--Consult decks aren't winning any more often than we would expect *any* deck to win in a 4 person pod, which certainly makes it seem that your claim about deck diversity being an issue if Flash were to be banned is inaccurate. And that's without accounting for the fact that cards that are good against Consult strategies are actively bad against Flash strategies, and would see more play without Flash Hulk around.

To the second point about asking for unbans instead: The things that might compete with Flash Hulk (and honestly, most of them wouldn't) would so deeply screw up the format for everyone, in cEDH metas and casual metas. It's not just not a good idea, it's an actively harmful idea.

Would I like to see some cards come off the banlist? Sure. But even though I think a number of them would be fair, I understand that the construction of the banlist as is by the RC is what allows cEDH to be as fun to play as it is, even if there are minor quibbles about a few cards. The issue with Flash is that it makes the games much less fun to play. Unbanning Paradox Engine wouldn't solve that--you can't play a P.E. strategy into a Flash Hulk meta, because it requires too much set-up on the board, meaning you can't be holding interaction for the Flash. Other banned cards have the same issue into a Flash Hulk meta. Recurring Nightmare reanimation strats? Too little immediate impact in a Flash meta. Stax strategies with stuff like Limited Resources or Upheaval? Prevent people from interacting with Flash, meaning you still...just lose. Prime Time or Sylvan Primordial? Actually just too slow into a Flash Hulk meta. And most of those cards mentioned? Shouldn't even be considered for unbanning (I personally would love to play with Engine again, or Recurring Nightmare, but if they stay banned then that's cool too).

shandiris wrote:
4 years ago
Why does CEDH not have it's own ban list?
On a similar note: why are they playing a format which is inherently unbalanced (combo decks fighting different combo decks) and then whine that their meta is wack?
cEDH doesn't have its own banlist for a very simple reason: It's not a different format. It's a different philosophy to deckbuilding, gameplay, and player interaction within a game, but that just means that when we sit down to an agreed upon "cEDH" game, we've just already established our Rule 0 discussion. Likewise, splitting off cEDH from the rest of the format would, in my estimation, cause far more problems than it would solve by removing a natural progression from players who are looking to play commander at a higher level than their playgroup might want to. Without an outlet, those players sometimes become pubstompers, sometimes revert their power level to meet the group, and sometimes leave the format entirely. With the ability to be directed to cEDH play, we provide another positive outcome to those situations.

Really, the issue is that "cEDH" is a misnomer. The vast majority of cEDH games aren't played in any sort of tournament structure or for any reason other than enjoyment--they're not really "competitive". Are the decks played at a high level of optimization and power? Yes, absolutely. But the name cEDH has stuck, despite the format not being a competitive format much at all.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

cEDH is not the target of the banlist. A card like PE that was miserable to play against in EDH should not be unbanned to benefit cEDH, nor should anything else.

Personally I'd be fine if flash or hulk (preferably hulk) were banned, because those bans would either not impact, or positively impact (imo) normal EDH. That's way more acceptable to me.

Talking at all about comparable power level in cEDH is a waste of time because that's not what the issue is with PE. I really don't give a crap what's good or not in cEDH, or whether it's balanced, or anything. Every word you've written about power level in cEDH is a waste of words. I just don't want cEDH to negatively impact the banlist for EDH. Ban flash? Fine. Unban PE? Over my dead body.
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Post by shandiris » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Talking at all about comparable power level in cEDH is a waste of time because that's not what the issue is with PE. I really don't give a crap what's good or not in cEDH, or whether it's balanced, or anything. Every word you've written about power level in cEDH is a waste of words. I just don't want cEDH to negatively impact the banlist for EDH.
I couldn't agree more.

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
cEDH is not the target of the banlist. A card like PE that was miserable to play against in EDH should not be unbanned to benefit cEDH, nor should anything else.

Personally I'd be fine if flash or hulk (preferably hulk) were banned, because those bans would either not impact, or positively impact (imo) normal EDH. That's way more acceptable to me.

Talking at all about comparable power level in cEDH is a waste of time because that's not what the issue is with PE. I really don't give a crap what's good or not in cEDH, or whether it's balanced, or anything. Every word you've written about power level in cEDH is a waste of words. I just don't want cEDH to negatively impact the banlist for EDH. Ban flash? Fine. Unban PE? Over my dead body.
This. And the thing is, the only thing that suggested Flash Hulk should be legal is no one could win on turn 0 with it in EDH.
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But thing is, Flash Hulk was pretty bonkers even beyond that. That's just how to make it bonkers without even taking a turn. I'd probably prefer to have Flash, just because searching for any number of creatures with total CMC 6 or less is pretty ridiculous.
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Post by Gwathnar » 4 years ago

They (we since I sometimes play cEDH) want Flash banned because it lets your win from zero board state.

PE was horrible to play against in casual because people would take 20 minute durdle turns and do nothing.

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

The reason why The RC is wavering on banning Flash is because it opens the door to more cEDH-specific bannings. Flash make sense - it is not played in regular EDH and it is way too present in cEDH. So let's ban that.

But then people will point at Ad Nauseum and Demonic Consultation and (rightfully) point out that they are only played in cEDH and should get banned for being too warping.

Now you have the RC actively policing the format. It's not what they want. If they make an exception for Flash, the exception becomes the rule.

I have a different idea...
There is one thing I would like for EDH that would also make cEDH more diverse - ban the top 5 tutors. Start with that, and see the impact.

Tutors make our singleton format play like constructed. If you cut the strongest tutors, all-in combo decks will get weaker and have to build for redundancy. Flash could still be a thing in cEDH but without Vampiric, Demonic and Mystical it could become less consistent.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

This is only kind of relevant, but it annoyed me immensely: recently on TCC the prof had a cEDH proponent come on and talk about the format while subtly insulting other commander players. But what really made me laugh, and made me suspect that a lot of cEDH players have no idea what they're talking about, is how he argued for banning flash.

One of his first arguments out of the gate (around 29:30 if you find the video) is "let me paint you a scenario...I'm about to take my first turn, and another player says 'hang on, I've got a gemstone caverns. Then before your draw step, exile elvish spirit guide, cast flash, sac hulk, win. That's a turn 0 victory."

This set off major "clueless idiot" alarm bells for me. The "turn 0 combo" concern was part of the discussion back when flash was banned from legacy, and while it was rare, it did happen occasionally. But he's basically just borrowing old arguments from online, not even talking about his own experiences. Which, you'd assume he has, if hulk is such a problem and so common in cEDH, right?

But what makes this example so mind-bogglingly stupid is how unlikely it is in a game of commander. Let's add up some odds.

Flash is irreplaceable and must start in your hand. Ok, so that's a ~7% chance.
Gemstone caverns is, afaik, the only turn 0 blue source available. So it's also irreplaceable. Ok, so another 6%.
Hulk is replaceable by one card: summoner's pact. So 2x those, let's say 10% (odds are simplified ofc).
Finally, we just need one more mana. But where to get it? Elvish or simian spirit guide work, as would summoners pact for one of those if hulk is in hand. But we're really running out of spots in hand. So, generously, let's give it another 10%.

Let's add it all together...drum roll please...it's a 0.0042% chance!

Yeah if you want to make a compelling case, maybe present something that's actually ever happened to someone, eh?

To be clear, I'm ok with flash or hulk getting banned. I just find this line of arguing to be stupid, and to make the arguer look like he has no clue what he's talking about.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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RxPhantom
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

I've said this before, but since when is niche status grounds to ban a card? People seem to be okay with banning it because it's not popular. This is the format for niche cards. How popular would it have to be to save it from such a ban?

cEDH can either work within the confines of the format, the casual philosophy of which has been established for years now, or strike out on their own. They seem to want a wholly different experience, and the best way to do that is to curate their own banlist.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
How popular would it have to be to save it from such a ban?
This is the question that specifically hits me hard on this issue. It's really hard to draw a line in the sand and say just how many casual players it's okay to piss off for something that is literally only broken in competitive.

It's something that I feel like the CEDH side of the shop has completely refused to engage with, basically making fun of everyone who plays flash casually when it comes up.

I feel like if you're a casual player and play flash, you would naturally be ridiculously confident in that never getting banned in EDH based on the philosophy document. And it would come as a pretty big shock I think if it did.

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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
How popular would it have to be to save it from such a ban?
This is the question that specifically hits me hard on this issue. It's really hard to draw a line in the sand and say just how many casual players it's okay to piss off for something that is literally only broken in competitive.

It's something that I feel like the CEDH side of the shop has completely refused to engage with, basically making fun of everyone who plays flash casually when it comes up.

I feel like if you're a casual player and play flash, you would naturally be ridiculously confident in that never getting banned in EDH based on the philosophy document. And it would come as a pretty big shock I think if it did.
I'm with you entirely, but I wanted to zero in on the bolded part. I have yet to see any kind of substantive response either. For me, it's the entire crux of the issue, and it's barely discussed. Consequently, it makes the tenor of the entire debate up to this point so incredibly frustrating.

Side note, Flash is my favorite card in Lord of Tresserhorn. I. Love. It. I don't feel that any worthwhile arguments have been made to cause me to lose it. While my own personal attachment to the card is one thing, the potential ramifications for the format itself are much more impactful.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

ParadoxEngine wrote:
4 years ago
Consultation gonna took that place and oops, same problem rises. Deck diversity will also die off and everyone's gonna play same kind of combo deck over and over.
The idea that the format will become 'solved' again in 6 months is a pretty common one, IMO. And it's one worth paying attention to.

The Vintage ban list only contains ante/dexterity cards, but the restricted list is pretty long. The legacy and modern ban lists are also intensely long.

It would be foolhardy to think that banning Flash would automatically transform the competitive EDH meta into a healthy one, and that a competitive utopia would reign for all eternity. Anyone who believes that 'just banning flash' will solve all the cEDH problems is, IMO, totally kidding themselves and not giving their peers enough credit to break the EDH with one fewer cards in the pool to choose from.

I'm not saying it's Consultation or Tainted Pact. I'm agnostic about who the next bugbear for cEDH is. But, without any doubt in my mind, there is one. I would rather not go through this Flash exercise again in 6 months, and then again in another 6 months, and so on and so on, forever.

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

I'd love to see the Cedh discord do a tournament that runs under the assumption that Flash is hard banned,instead of the "soft" ban that it currently is under. Then I think we'd get an idea of what a post flash meta might look like.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
4 years ago
I'd love to see the Cedh discord do a tournament that runs under the assumption that Flash is hard banned,instead of the "soft" ban that it currently is under. Then I think we'd get an idea of what a post flash meta might look like.
I don't think we'd get a good look at the resulting meta. It takes time to develop what optimal lists will look like, and sometimes, that time period outlives the existence of the meta, because new cards get printed.

There's a funny story about the Star Wars CCG. It was considered in its golden age in the first quarter of 2000. Death Star II had just be released, the meta was balanced (for perhaps the only time in the CCG's lifespan), and players were at the top of their game. World Championships were held, games were played, etc. etc. etc. Two years later, for a variety of reasons, Decipher lost the license the game, and had to cease its production of new sets.

A player committee formed that could make new 'virtual' cards, where you printed out custom text and overlaid the printout on existing art/movie stills, and you could play functionally new cards even though the game was technically out of print. The committee had Decipher's blessing, and was in the clear legally, and they operated (and still operate) in kind of the same way: They make new cards, players play them, they have world championships, etc.

In 2010 (if memory serves, it may have been 2011 or 2012), to commemorate the golden age of the game, they decided that worlds would be held with the Death Star II meta. Despite having the exact same card pool, the day 2 decklists looked nothing like their year 2000 counterparts. Players and SWCCG-specific game theory had evolved in the intervening 10 years, and strategies that won in 2000 had been adapted to with cards printed in 2000 and previous.

One cannot expect a snap-adaptation once Flash is banned, and then say "Oh, the meta is balanced, look at all this variety!" I venture that it will take months and months for the new broken thing to appear. But I will say this: Tymna/Thrasios pairings will likely still be a huge bone of contention (on reddit, there are as many people with 'ban flash' as their flair as 'ban partners'), and partners in general will still be a problem.

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