Power creep in the command zone - interesting article

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 3984
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
4 years ago
The problem really is with commanders, like marchesa, who are very on/off.
I agree with this point. Though I have become a little more cold to players who play "ON-OFF" commanders that complain when their commander gets hated off the table. I tend to play decks with more resiliency and less All-In nature because of the removal heavy meta I grew up in. If you play a narrow commander and lean too hard into having it on the battlefield, you take a risk of getting shut off by removal. While there may be some feel-bads there, its not my sole responsibility to get overwhelmed in the name of fun.
If someone puts all their eggs in one basket they have absolutely no basis for complaint when someone knocks that basket over. Part of building a successful deck is future proofing and allowing for contingencies. I personally experience no bad vibes whatsoever continually removing a commander like Marchesa, the Black Rose or similar.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

Tags:

User avatar
PrimevalCommander
Posts: 872
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by PrimevalCommander » 4 years ago

^^^Agreed.
Don't play Glass Cannons if you don't want your cannon shattered.
I'm liking all the metaphors going around!

schweinefett
Posts: 114
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
freelunch wrote:
4 years ago
folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
edit: i wonder how edh would differ if every card with "commander" written on it was banned provisionally. giggle
I've actually been mulling about a Highlander variant, with some of the commander rules, where only Expansion and Core sets are legal. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) think that would be an interesting format to play?
i know it'd suit me, I keep up way more with the main sets than anything else (although I wish I'd grabbed the Planechase stuff at the time, that turned out to be a great gimmick!)

I hate to badmouth about the Commander and Brawl specific cards cos I know a lot of effort goes into them, including the efforts of well-known edh folk, but I feel like the point of a game variant is to make something that suits you out of a product that might not. I feel slightly awkward when I see "X can be your commander" written on a card, somehow.
Some of my local legacy group is playing a format called "pre-innistrad"; a format without the warping factors of griselbrand, terminus, delver of secrets. It's a really fun and toned down version of where legacy is right now. Something could be done for EDH as well.

Could be worth for some of us to have a "pre-alara" or "old-border" format, just so then we can keep it super-casual and not have this 'super-value-of-boringness" gameplay that (at least I see) happens everywhere.
I mean, even in old-school or 93/94, new decks are being built and are competitive still... and that has a TINY cardpool (relatively speaking) compared to legacy/vintage - there's STILL innovation to be had!

Sure, the game's having to push the boundaries a bit, and that's understandable. I just don't understand why there is such a strong push into blatantly obvious powerhouses, and not obscurely powerful/niche effects.

Cards like terror was great because it was a strong, cheap, but has a niche effect. Cards like that are interesting. Doing the "all your cards now tap for triple mana and makes you draw a card, because why not" sort of value nonsense is a bit too much.

NZB2323
Posts: 588
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
4 years ago
PrimevalCommander wrote:
4 years ago
The problem really is with commanders, like marchesa, who are very on/off.
I agree with this point. Though I have become a little more cold to players who play "ON-OFF" commanders that complain when their commander gets hated off the table. I tend to play decks with more resiliency and less All-In nature because of the removal heavy meta I grew up in. If you play a narrow commander and lean too hard into having it on the battlefield, you take a risk of getting shut off by removal. While there may be some feel-bads there, its not my sole responsibility to get overwhelmed in the name of fun.
If someone puts all their eggs in one basket they have absolutely no basis for complaint when someone knocks that basket over. Part of building a successful deck is future proofing and allowing for contingencies. I personally experience no bad vibes whatsoever continually removing a commander like Marchesa, the Black Rose or similar.
Absolutely. If everyone is playing with busted commanders then build a deck with Empress Galina or Olivia Voldaren and steal their commanders.
Current Decks
rg Morophon, the infinite Kavu Eowyn, human tribal Legolas, voltron control Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Ug Edric pauper

Retired Decks
Edgar Markov Kaalia, angel board wipes Ghen, prison Captain Sisay Ub Nymris, draw go Sarulf, voltron control Niv-Mizzet, combo Winota Sidisi, Zombie Tribal

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4536
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I mean, it's great in theory to say "just kill their commander", but:

1) that doesn't result in fun gameplay for either of us, and
2) with the legends wotc has printed in recent years, and especially the type that people tend to glom onto, sometimes I'll sit down to a game and see multiple "must keep off the field at all times" commanders.
3) when I'm constantly targeting one commander, even if not doing so would likely result in losing the game, other (more clueless) players, as well as the target themself, tend to see me as a bully regardless. Being right doesn't really matter in a social format. This is why I'll often let that player get slightly out of control before reining them back in, so the table can appreciate why they need to be hated out. Marchesa can be a particular annoyance in this regard because, if you let her slide for even a turn, suddenly she's got a sac outlet, a graft creature, and a counter on marchesa, and already you're going to be down multiple cards just to get her off the field once.
schweinefett wrote:
4 years ago
Cards like terror was great because it was a strong, cheap, but has a niche effect. Cards like that are interesting. Doing the "all your cards now tap for triple mana and makes you draw a card, because why not" sort of value nonsense is a bit too much.
I agree with the general sentiment, but how is terror "niche"?

While the idea of a more restricted format is great in theory, in practice, popularity trumps everything. All splinter formats are doomed to failure because the greatest strength of commander is the ease of finding a game. Virtually anywhere people play magic, you'll find commander aplenty.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

schweinefett
Posts: 114
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by schweinefett » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

schweinefett wrote:
4 years ago
Cards like terror was great because it was a strong, cheap, but has a niche effect. Cards like that are interesting. Doing the "all your cards now tap for triple mana and makes you draw a card, because why not" sort of value nonsense is a bit too much.
I agree with the general sentiment, but how is terror "niche"?

While the idea of a more restricted format is great in theory, in practice, popularity trumps everything. All splinter formats are doomed to failure because the greatest strength of commander is the ease of finding a game. Virtually anywhere people play magic, you'll find commander aplenty.
I mean niche as in it's removal of a specific subset of a card type (non-black, non-artifact). I mean, it's certainly not very 'EDH-playable", but once upon a time, it was definitely something worth chucking into a deck as removal.

I suppose avoid fate is a much more powerful/inexpensive, but very niche effect that rewards somewhat better skilled-play.

I think restricted formats work if there is a large enough population that holds enough nostaligia for it to sustain it. Pre-innstrad works because many legacy players remember it as the halcyon days of yore. Old-school or 93-94 works because some players recall what it was like to be starting up playing magic way back when, before lightning bolt was erratad to "target creature or player". Emotions help a lot to keep fun formats alive.

But back on topic, it's a fix for play groups that are somewhat stable/insular, and don't like where EDH is going. self-management is what EDH was meant to be doing anyways, as part of the philosophy of the format.

NZB2323
Posts: 588
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
I mean, it's great in theory to say "just kill their commander", but:

1) that doesn't result in fun gameplay for either of us, and
2) with the legends wotc has printed in recent years, and especially the type that people tend to glom onto, sometimes I'll sit down to a game and see multiple "must keep off the field at all times" commanders.
3) when I'm constantly targeting one commander, even if not doing so would likely result in losing the game, other (more clueless) players, as well as the target themself, tend to see me as a bully regardless. Being right doesn't really matter in a social format. This is why I'll often let that player get slightly out of control before reining them back in, so the table can appreciate why they need to be hated out. Marchesa can be a particular annoyance in this regard because, if you let her slide for even a turn, suddenly she's got a sac outlet, a graft creature, and a counter on marchesa, and already you're going to be down multiple cards just to get her off the field once.
schweinefett wrote:
4 years ago
Cards like terror was great because it was a strong, cheap, but has a niche effect. Cards like that are interesting. Doing the "all your cards now tap for triple mana and makes you draw a card, because why not" sort of value nonsense is a bit too much.
I agree with the general sentiment, but how is terror "niche"?

While the idea of a more restricted format is great in theory, in practice, popularity trumps everything. All splinter formats are doomed to failure because the greatest strength of commander is the ease of finding a game. Virtually anywhere people play magic, you'll find commander aplenty.
There are ways of dealing with multiple commanders. Cards like Windgrace's Judgement, Winds of abandon and cyclonic rift gets them all off the board. You can play a list with a lot of board wipes with a super fiends theme, Zurgo Helmsmasher, or Avacyn, angel of hope. You can even have Avacyn as a secret commander in a Captain Sisay or Kaalia of the vast as a commander. You can have reusable removal in several cards:
A guy at my LGS even has a wolf tribal build with Tolismir, friend to wolves and Wren's run packmaster so whenever a wolf enters the battlefield he can have a wolf with death touch fight a commander.
Current Decks
rg Morophon, the infinite Kavu Eowyn, human tribal Legolas, voltron control Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Ug Edric pauper

Retired Decks
Edgar Markov Kaalia, angel board wipes Ghen, prison Captain Sisay Ub Nymris, draw go Sarulf, voltron control Niv-Mizzet, combo Winota Sidisi, Zombie Tribal

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4536
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

schweinefett wrote:
4 years ago
I mean niche as in it's removal of a specific subset of a card type (non-black, non-artifact). I mean, it's certainly not very 'EDH-playable", but once upon a time, it was definitely something worth chucking into a deck as removal.

I suppose avoid fate is a much more powerful/inexpensive, but very niche effect that rewards somewhat better skilled-play.

I think restricted formats work if there is a large enough population that holds enough nostaligia for it to sustain it. Pre-innstrad works because many legacy players remember it as the halcyon days of yore. Old-school or 93-94 works because some players recall what it was like to be starting up playing magic way back when, before lightning bolt was erratad to "target creature or player". Emotions help a lot to keep fun formats alive.

But back on topic, it's a fix for play groups that are somewhat stable/insular, and don't like where EDH is going. self-management is what EDH was meant to be doing anyways, as part of the philosophy of the format.
I guess it's just a matter of definitions, but for my money, I'd call something "niche" if it only makes sense in a specific kind of deck. saltskitter is my classic niche commander card (fits into ephara, god of the polis but is pretty garbo everywhere else). Terror has generally been outclassed by other removal (the lack of new regenerators hurts it too in comparison to doom blade and the like) but there's nothing WRONG with it. If you stuck it into pretty much anything it'd be fine. It doesn't overly depend on the type of deck it's being put into, the way saltskitter does.

I suspect you'd have better success getting other people to play a restricted format so long as you kept it within the rules of commander, so that any decks built could also be played in commander games. In Seattle there was a group that played 2DH, which was a variant that only allowed cards that sold for less then $2 on tcgplayer, and that became reasonably popular. I suspect in part because those decks weren't only useful to play against each other - plus the restriction allowed people to optimize lists without breaking the bank or becoming too OP.
NZB2323 wrote:
4 years ago
There are ways of dealing with multiple commanders. Cards like Windgrace's Judgement, Winds of abandon and cyclonic rift gets them all off the board. You can play a list with a lot of board wipes with a super fiends theme, Zurgo Helmsmasher, or Avacyn, angel of hope. You can even have Avacyn as a secret commander in a Captain Sisay or Kaalia of the vast as a commander. You can have reusable removal in several cards:
A guy at my LGS even has a wolf tribal build with Tolismir, friend to wolves and Wren's run packmaster so whenever a wolf enters the battlefield he can have a wolf with death touch fight a commander.
You're focusing on the least important, and easiest to solve, of the problems. I could easily build a deck that locks out multiple obnoxious commanders. Hell, I'll rebuild my old child of alara deck and no one will ever untap with their commander again. But taking one point in isolation solves nothing. The problem is finding a way to prevent BS commanders from running away with the game while keeping the game enjoyable and avoiding looking like a bully or the fun police.

Win faster → I'm too OP
Delete their commanders → I'm a bully/fun police
Let their commanders stick around → lose
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

There was a recent Blogatog post (and compiled stats) on this topic, although primarily focused towards 5c commanders. General consensus was very strongly towards wanting fewer of them printed. Having access to five colors is already enough of a bonus to a commander that they don't also need to be efficient generic value engines.

....I actually suspect some of these commanders were printed for Brawl, so that there would be 3c and 5c options available (since they usually aren't present in standard unless there is a heavy-multicolor set), but hopefully the pendulum will swing back in the other direction.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Commander”