When should you update versus dismantle?

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Inkeyes22
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Post by Inkeyes22 » 4 years ago

So I know there is likely to be a "Depends on X & Y" and that is kind of the point.

I don't get to play a lot and I sold the vast majority of my collection about two years ago, but I have 11 decks now. Most of them I have built since Feb. 2018. I ran into an interesting article, the quote that really struck me was "If you're still playing Explosive Vegetation instead of Circuitous Route, then this may be a sign that the deck needs an update." Now I will admit that part of why it suprised me was I was thinking Ranger's Path when I read EV, and thought, but what about shock lands et. al.?

Now I have a Shattergang Brothers that either needs a major update or likely to be torn apart, but I like having a Jund deck and sometimes I need to be the fun police (like when I am playing with my sons and another person to keep that person more or less equal to what my sons are doing). So I do think it would be worth it to rebuild.

My Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale might drop a color and become a Vona, Butcher of Magan deck as I have never seen one, and it was crazy powerful the one time I pulled one in draft. I have dropped Vona in Edgar Markov decks and have always wished I could get her back easier (she is a lightning rod after all).

I have 3 Izzet decks, Rowan Kenrith/Will Kenrith, Niv-Mizzet, Parun (my 10 year old's deck) and Saheeli, the Gifted. I have thought about combining the twins with my son's deck as they are both U/R spellslinger decks and the twins usually try to shut down combat to protect the PWs by bouncing/Earthquakeing or when I drop Ensnaring Bridge and can protect it/recur it fairly easily. I guess I could change the focus away from the twins, but then why not just combine with Niv-Mizzet?

Anyway some ramblings while I should be working on my MEd.

article mentioned above: https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2020 ... any-decks/

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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Without reading the article, IMO you should update when you find a piece that works better then a piece already in the deck to a significant enough margin to warrant it. Explosive VegetationCircuitous Route is marginal to me. If you're just getting basics it doesn't matter, if you're running Gates then it matters. I just don't agree that every deck needs constant face lifts to remain enjoyable, even if there's a slight power/consistency shift relative to other decks whose owners are making updates more often.

As for dismantling, my opinion is whenever you need too many pieces from the deck for a new idea such that it doesn't leave the list intact, or if there isn't enough enjoyment of the deck anymore with you or your group.

Edit: This quote stood out for me, though.
However, cards like that can be some of the most important to cut, because they can fundamentally change how we feel about playing the deck.That was enough to give the deck a fresh look and feel, and I found new energy when playing it.
The key being that they were neglecting their deck, not playing it, and changing the nature of the deck a bit was enough to make it feel different.
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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

I dismantle when I'm done with a deck. Symptoms of 'being done' include (but are not limited to): disinterest in the gameplay the deck provides (including flaws in a broad strategy that become difficult or unreliable to execute), inability to update the deck due to saturation of good, on-theme cards (flavour-wise or mechanically), and my group has adapted in card choices and playstyle to the point where the deck can no longer reasonably execute broad strategies. This usually happens between 6 months to a year into a deck's lifespan, though some decks have lasted a couple of years. I do not understand the 'forever deck' phenomenon, where people have a deck that they have for more than 5 years, and they are clearly invested in a very deep way with it. (At least online; for example, DirkGently's Phelddagrif, or 3drink's obsession with Kaalia. These aren't callouts, I find it alien, and cannot relate; I will consistently play the same colour combinations, but almost never the same generals.)

I modify a deck whenever I'm not dismantling it. This is a little bit more vague in terms of the exact reason to prompt modification, but I am always tinkering with my piles (which eventually leads to the stagnation symptom that prompts a dismantling). Part of this is identifying underperforming cards and substituting new cards for them, or when a new set is released if a relevant (mechanically or thematically) relevant card gets printed. Another reason to modify a deck is when my group has agreed that something is unfun (most recently, we mostly decided Perplexing Chimera was pretty unfun for everyone involved) and needs to be removed, or if a previously-thought-to-be-unfun card should be given a new lease on life and included in our decks.

Basically, my decks are always churning into new shapes, dissolving into nothing and coalescing into something new. It is also worth noting that I only ever have a maximum of 10 decks built. Part of this is to keep costs to a minimum (exactly how many copies of new card X should I obtain? Usually one or two, to serve across 10 decks), and the other part is that I hate buying sleeves.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

For me when a deck hasn't been touched in a couple years I have to start over. My tastes just change so much and the meta shifts so much. So I err on the side of dismantling when I haven't had the desire to make updates for a while and if I have the desire to play it again I'll just rebuild it.

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Post by Whiffypenguin » 4 years ago

I modify decks until I do a great wave of dismantling. I've had 2 purges in the last 8 years and am on the cusp of a third.

Modify when the thought of not having your deck any longer seems wrong. Dismantle every other time.

In this purge I'm actually going to liquidate all my dupe cards. I don't need 5 demonic tutors anymore. My kids and job take up too much time. And 4 demonic tutors is $100 worth of cards I don't own or $60-$80 of cash I could use. Gonna make a commander cube. Even if I only ever use it as a cube a hand full of times it will give my collection a reason for being. And if not I will have a sweet sweet build box to make a new deck for my monthly league games.

Sorry for rambling. Hope it helps.

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Post by Toshi » 4 years ago

There are propably 3 states my decks are usually in:

Regularily played and maintained:
Given i enjoy a certain deck i try to keep up with set releases et al. Once the spoilers are out i go over them and add cards to the wanted lists of my current decks. I pick up anything below 5€ usually within weeks of release at my LGS. Anything above 10€ is watched closely. If it's overcosted due to Standard play i'll propably pick it up after rotation. Best example was Vivien Reid which was way beyond 10€ but i was able to pick up for 2,50€ each after rotation.
Seeing updates as a constant process instead of once a year shopping spree is much easier on my college budget. Plus, if i wouldn't change a thing about a deck in a year or so i might lose interest and chances are i'd then transition or dismantle the deck instead of going through one big update step.
Most other upgrades are cards i might've overlooked or have a bad cost/power ratio, which i pick up whenever i have excess budget and or friends ask me about birthday/christmas wishes.
In question of transition:
Decks i might find myself bored with or that have a more fun option released fall into this category. If i still had my Prossh, Skyraider of Kher deck i'd be highly tempted to swap for Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, just for being more fun and less oppressive. My Omnath, Locus of Rage deck is starting to become bland and the coming months will show if i might get more enjoyment out of it or transition it to another commander like Gallia of the Endless Dance.
Decks in this category only get limited updates, mostly ones that aren't too deck specific. I wouldn't splash money on Crucible of Worlds and a suite of fetches for a deck that might not "survive" the following season.
Decks in transition:
I've went through the following transitions over the last 8 years:Once i decide to go through the process of transitioning i come up with a first iteration and buy the cards for it, so that i can go from one playable deck to another.

I'm a big fan of having a roster of decks, so i don't see myself dismantling decks for good anytime soon.

ps. Without reading the article, the Explosive Vegetation to Circuitous Route thing is really dumb. Who runs a lot of gates? For most people i know Hunting Wilds, Ranger's Path and Skyshroud Claim would be the right cards to discuss, since they run duals.

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Post by BaronCappuccino » 4 years ago

I modify decks for as long as I still want said deck to be my pet deck. I only want one deck at a time. I want to put everything into a single deck that friends directly associate with me.

I dismantle decks when I discover my concept wasn't going to work. I insist on reinventing the wheel with every deck, and frankly, it's not my strong suit. I have a Chandra superfriends deck 60% delivered from TCG, and I'm not entirely confident it'll be able to hold its own. It's never theme and style that disappoint me - I feel like I build those features in spades. It's winning where I falter. I haven't won a game yet in my playgroup. Granted, we've only a dozen games under our newly collective belts, but it means I need to step it up from the LGS casuals that falsely validated my deckbuilding thought processes.

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Post by Segrus » 4 years ago

You can pretty much count me in with the people who have 'forever' decks. Currently the longest living decks are Trostani, Selesnya's Voice (which is my wife's primary deck) and an Anax and Cymede deck--so since 2012 and 2013 respectively, or there abouts. Generally speaking, I don't take apart decks until I feel they've been underperforming to such a degree that I'd be better off working those cards into other decks. Sometimes the theme was too weak to come alive in games or maybe the deck never made a sufficient amount of impact on any particular board state. There's also an element relating to how much effort it would take to update those decks versus just building something new.

I'm not typically bothered by whether a deck doesn't get played in awhile or not. If I had fun with it last it got played, then I'll have fun again the next time.

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Post by JoeyB11223 » 4 years ago

Personally I've never dismantled a deck, though since starting playing commander probably 3 years ago, I only have 5 decks up to now. For my first deck, Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest, I have "updated" it to the extent I've taken it apart and made many card changes to alter the way the deck operates. I found though I did that multiple types and I got too focused wondering on if I should change the decks direction. So now I've just stopped doing that and once I've brewed a deck I am content with, I don't focus on new cards that are a "maybe" too much, unless a new card is strictly better than something in the deck, in which case I'll swap it out.

I suppose I'd dismantle if I literally had 0 enjoyment playing it and was deliberately avoiding selecting it. But as I'd proxy any expensive card once I owned a copy, I wouldn't dismantle for that reason and wouldn't mind having multiple mono X colour decks say, as long as they ran differently enough.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

When you enjoy the deck and earnestly believe in it's abilities and want to explore it's progression. But keep in mind it's totally OK to play a deck, not update or dismantle it, and still play it. Many times people get stuck on this idea that they have to constantly tinker as a condition of enjoyment and that's just not true.

You know how much tinkering I do with Kari Zev (or Kairi Sane as I call her)? I have a pool of ~45 cards I can shuffle into it at a given time. You know when I'd make real updates? Well, I'll put it this way - i just acquired a Beta Gauntlet of Might and my "weakest" card is a toss up between Stormbreath Dragon and Torbran, Thane of Red Fell (and I don't see power cards ousting these anytime soon). That's a great place to be...and let me tell you, I absolutely adore smashing my RDW into the faces of people not expecting it. My fun levels have never been higher.

Does that answer your question?

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