Do you intentionally misplay/hold back?

[DirkGently]

On a recent episode of TCC, the professor was talking about cEDH, and how it's different in terms of deckbuilding and play. While obviously it's different deckbuilding wise, I take some umbrage with the idea the cEDH is the only version of EDH where people try to make the best plays they can. I almost always try to make the best play I can, and I get annoyed when people intentionally misplay or hold back, because I think it ruins the authenticity and challenge of the game.

But I'm not trying to pass moral judgment, I'm just curious to see how many play the way the professor claims non-cEDH players do, and how many "build casually, play competitively".

[toctheyounger]

That seems like a statement that just isn't correct. In most cases, presumably.

To the best of my ability, I try to make sure my plays, triggers, and targets are on point. I might make a mistake here and there but when I do I'll usually play through the scenario post-game mentally to see how I could've improved the situation.

I will sometimes intentionally misplay to draw out removal, but that doesn't seem incorrect to me anyway. It's part and parcel of getting to know who you're playing against, knowing what your key pieces are, and making sure they do what you want them to.

[plushpenguin]

I don't mind people taking their time to learn the game, but at some point holding back too much is doing them a disservice, especially if they're the type to pick up styles or learning methods from other people.

If I want to play on an even playing field, I use a deck that reflects this. This way, I can dispense all the knowledge that can help make people adept without blinding people with the raw power of the cards or the strategy.

[DirkGently]

I will sometimes intentionally misplay to draw out removal, but that doesn't seem incorrect to me anyway. It's part and parcel of getting to know who you're playing against, knowing what your key pieces are, and making sure they do what you want them to.

Baiting answers definitely isn't misplaying. I mean, it might be correct or incorrect given the situation, but so long as you think it gives you the best chance of winning, then you're not intentionally misplaying.

[RxPhantom]

Two of the options assume revenge is a chief motivator here. You wanna talk about it, Dirk? Sometimes, I feel bad for potentially steamrolling the table too early, so I occasionally pull my punches.

[DirkGently]

Two of the options assume revenge is a chief motivator here. You wanna talk about it, Dirk? Sometimes, I feel bad for potentially steamrolling the table too early, so I occasionally pull my punches.

I hope it's clear that I kinda meant to roll all 3 things into 1: either misplaying for additional lulz, misplaying to get petty revenge (generally for something done in a previous game), or misplaying by holding back an early win.

The revenge motivation I almost forgot about, but it was mentioned several times in the TCC video so I thought it prudent to include it. Some people might not be making plays for lulz or have access to early wins, but if someone kills them in the previous game they might have a vendetta into the next one...and imo that would qualify as a misplay if it goes much further than being aware of what their deck can do, and maybe directing an attack towards them first if it's otherwise basically a coin flip.

[toctheyounger]

Baiting answers definitely isn't misplaying. I mean, it might be correct or incorrect given the situation, but so long as you think it gives you the best chance of winning, then you're not intentionally misplaying.

And now I know the correct terminology, thanks heaps. There's times it's correct to do so and times not to I guess, figuring it out isn't always easy, so there is the possibility for it to be a massive mistake.

I don't mind people taking their time to learn the game, but at some point holding back too much is doing them a disservice, especially if they're the type to pick up styles or learning methods from other people.

100% agree.

If I want to play on an even playing field, I use a deck that reflects this. This way, I can dispense all the knowledge that can help make people adept without blinding people with the raw power of the cards or the strategy.

I try to do this with every game I play, personally. If I'm throwing super value cards at a newbie I can't really call it a win, although I guess they can learn from it so there's that; also, if it's as even a match as I can make it there's a lot smaller likelihood of complaints re pubstombing or whatever. Ultimately though, an even match, to my mind, means closer parity between decks, so ultimately there's a higher likelihood of the genuinely superior player winning. That might or might not be me, but it means a fair battle of wits most of the time, and that's why I'm in it.

[pokken]

My usual intentional misplays are when I want to explore different lines of play. For example normally recruiter for soulherder takes over games and i know.it's going to work well mostly. I mix it up sometimes like say get spellseeker for etutor for thassa because I want to see the new card. Just an example ofc.

I often get bored of winning the same way and want to see what else might work. I tend to think of this as exploring ideas to increase proficiency over the long term. I am rarely thinking of a single game when I play rather than the holistic nature of the deck and the experience it provides.

I voted the third option since its closest but it doesn't really reflect exactly my approach.

[DirkGently]

My usual intentional misplays are when I want to explore different lines of play. For example normally recruiter for soulherder takes over games and i know.it's going to work well mostly. I mix it up sometimes like say get spellseeker for etutor for thassa because I want to see the new card. Just an example ofc.

I often get bored of winning the same way and want to see what else might work. I tend to think of this as exploring ideas to increase proficiency over the long term. I am rarely thinking of a single game when I play rather than the holistic nature of the deck and the experience it provides.

I voted the third option since its closest but it doesn't really reflect exactly my approach.

That's something I hadn't really considered in my options...I think it runs on sort of a different axis than misplaying for revenge/lulz/time, I'd expect that pro players would do the same thing, to explore different lines of play to get a feeling for the advantages or disadvantages of them. As such, I wouldn't consider it a misplay for purposes of this poll, but you're ultimately trying to make your play better by learning more about the game and your options in it.

[MeowZeDung]

Context is key:

At an LGS or against some seasoned players I don't hold back. I'm a full on Spike. If anything I go too deep into the tank looking for the optimal play and get yelled at for slowing the game down

Playing against my wife, 14y/o, and 8y/o who have all been playing since around November/December, you bet I pull punches. Not all the time by any means. Mostly just when I have a win on board well before turn 8-10 or have won the last 2-3 games. I make it clear to my son (8) that part of Magic is losing your cool creature to a removal spell, or having your board wiped, or losing to a combo even though you had a really cool play lined up for next turn, and I celebrate with him when he does savage things against me. I'm not trying to play with them as if they need to be wrapped in bubble wrap or else experience severe emotional trauma via cardboard, but at their ages and experience levels fun is more important than strategy and I certainly warp things in ways they don't notice in order to maximize that.

Oh, and +1 to "misplaying" for testing purposes. I've looted away strictly better stuff so that I could mess around with new cards, for sure.

[Sinis]

Ehhhhhhh.

Sometimes, the 'incorrect' play is a correct play, politically.

My group had a game recently, down to three players, and one player launched a 12 mana Genesis Wave and the other player hit it with a Negate. I used Swan Song on the Negate, forcing through an opponent's Genesis Wave. This was a very, very high risk play at our table, and it was arguably not the correct one. I won the game, but, it's unclear how things might have gone in another universe, or whether forcing through the Genesis Wave bought me much.

Basically, in multiplayer, you cannot always know the correct play. Sometimes the correct play differs by seating order. There is way more hidden information in EDH multiplayer, and if you believe you make the correct play every time, you're kidding yourself.

---

That said, I will almost always make the plays I believe will win me the game, even if they are sometimes counterintuitive. There are vanishingly few times I will intentionally throw a game.

As others have said, baiting removal or exploring lines of play ("Do we always get Field of the Dead with Golos?") do happen.

[ISBPathfinder]

I often build my decks so that if I can do something I tend to do it. Sometimes when it comes down to like, I could steal card X which would do an effect I refuse to run I don't do that but generally if I am running the cards I tend to fire them off. I do generally avoid infinities though so sometimes the cards make the cut because they are just good cards that "could" go off with a specific card. In those cases I will generally try to not pair those cards in play together or just avoid the thing that goes infinite.

[JovialJovian]

If I can win a game early with a strong play, I will do so, and the group can fire up another game in short order.

If I can take out one player early, but not have the prospect to end the game, I might hesitate. I'm there to have fun, and so are my opponents, and I've been on the receiving end of a quick kill (or worse, crippled but not finished off) that didn't end the game and have to hope for another group to finish and be willing to shuffle members or take on a 5th. Fewer opponents means better chances of winning, but my opponents are also friends, and I want them to have fun playing too.

[toctheyounger]

As an aside, I really don't get why anyone would make revenge plays. One game is one game, the next is the next. Sure, you might get spanked one game, and now you know what to expect next time and you're better equipped to deal with what comes your way, but to purposefully target someone into the ground for beating you last game seems like the ultimate tilt. It's no different to focusing someone down just based on their commander - in fact it's probably worse.

I guess the other type of revenge play is within a single game, and it's still stupid. I remember a game recently where someone Stifled my early game Wayfarer's Bauble crack. It annoyed me, but if that's what that person wanted to waste their disruption on, more power to them. They didn't win, they just temporarily pissed me off and achieved very little, so I left them alone to waste their control on inconsequential plays. From memory I think I won that game anyway.

Revenge plays because someone destroyed your bomb I guess is fair, but if you want the win, revenge should not be in your motives, because that's tilt and it's not enough to justify targets for your spells. If it's otherwise the correct play, do it. If it's a play purely out of spite, it's probably wrong.

Seems fairly obvious to me, and I actually find it strange to think that a smart guy like the Professor would think that this is a common way to play. Any gamer worth their salt would probably avoid these plays if they want to win. Maybe in kitchen table casual for laughs but otherwise it doesn't add up.

[MeowZeDung]

I remember a game recently where someone Stifled my early game Wayfarer's Bauble crack.

There's petty, and then there's this.

[ilovesaprolings]

I voted this: "Sometimes, I'll occasionally make a subpar play for revenge or if it's really funny, or hold back if I have a very early win" but it's not completely true.
I never hold back if i have an early win. My deck has no cheap combos and it's on the same power level as my friends' decks, so i don't have to hold back.
I "misplay" for revenge. It happened very very rarely and it was more to highlight errors (you removed the less dangerous threat) than for actual revenge, but it happened.
Some time i "misplay" for hilarious play. For example one game i decided that my goal was not to win anymore, but to copy dire fleet ravager or retrigger its ability as much as time i could to make everyone lose at the same time. I needed 8 activations, sagly i only got 6.

[folding_music]

I remember going into chaos mode or kingmaker mode when I used to play regularly. Sometimes the table reaches a state where one player obviously has the momentum to win and everyone else is going to bounce off them, and under those conditions it's more fun to do SOMETHING even if it's not primarily effective. I had decks which had secret plots attached to them, IE, getting in some Tarpan damage, and I had decks which only existed for comedy, IE, running Licid beatdown and insisting it was Sliver beatdown, but even when I cast myself in the role of a pointless deck I still tried to play it in a way that made the game more interactive.

PS, I don't think early disruption vs mana is necessarily bad. Grudges suck, but if one player is powered up way beyond the rest then you're kinda playing archenemy whether you like it or not; letting people with precons or old collections get into the game vs the EDHREC guy seems like an actual strategy to me!

[Atraxian]

Might not really apply to Commander as my experiences come from before Commander was even a thing, but on tabletop with friends, if I had an early win with my reanimator deck I just went for "wrong" plays.
I'm pretty sure I would do the same again in Commander if I managed to play it with friends.
Playing a longer game is more fun than shuffling your deck.

[cryogen]

I voted "often", but I feel like it's actually somewhere in between often and sometimes. It's not so much that I do it often, but my mentality is more in line with the way the option was worded.

[Simto]

I voted often. Commander is all about fun for me. I don't care about winning at all, I just want to have fun wit my friends and make sure everybody's decks do some crazy %$#%

[schweinefett]

I don't pull punches.

You know what's a worse feeling that getting creamed in a game? knowing that your opponent(s) are 'taking it easy' on ya with baby gloves. I find it insulting and a waste of time when people do it to me. I want people to play to the best that they can, and not pity others. If people make misplays, sure, it happens - its a complex game. But when at the game end, i notice that someone had the combo win but held it off, it really bugs me the wrong way. Just finish off the table and start a new game!

It could also be one of the reasons why i've been so bleh on EDH recently, and have focused much more on legacy. At least there, my opponent would never hesitate to liquimetal coating + karn all my lands to oblivion, and I would never hesitate to wasteland and fateseal them off their only coloured mana source to eternity.

Also, if it turns out that my opponent's deck is significantly weaker than mine, i can always use deckbuilding to tune it for the meta. That's not a problem. But when i'm in the game, i try to win.

[MeowZeDung]

PS, I don't think early disruption vs mana is necessarily bad.

Not at all, but the example was Wayfarer's bauble being countered out of spite. Half a cultivate for the same cmc hardly seems worth countering.

[Sharpened]

"Bad decisions make great stories"

I want to win. I will try to win. But when I play standard or limited, I will search for the "correct" line of play that gives me the highest percentage of winning the game. In Commander? A lower percentage play that has a much higher chance of being epic? Sign me up.

[RxPhantom]

"Bad decisions make great stories"

I want to win. I will try to win. But when I play standard or limited, I will search for the "correct" line of play that gives me the highest percentage of winning the game. In Commander? A lower percentage play that has a much higher chance of being epic? Sign me up.

This. I hadn't even thought of this, but I totally do it.

There are a lot of reasons, including what's quoted, that would cause me to pull punches. Revenge for a prior game generally isn't a factor, but if a player is engaging in the same lines of play that they used to win on turn 4 in a previous game, then I'll definitely start devoting my resources to stop them.

[spacemonaut]

I'm not sure how to vote.

I play what's most fun for the game table, and sometimes that's a move that's kind to my opponents but not necessarily the thing that will win the game for me personally. It might be for political behaviour or it might be because someone's having a hard time. ("I pick you for Sylvan Offering because I can see you're having a tough time, even if we might not become allies.") I will however not hold back on closing the game out if I'm in a position where I can do that. This is just a continuous mode of play for me.

This isn't motivated by what's really funny, because it's not about what's funny at all. It's also not motivated by revenge. In fact cross-game revenge is something I really don't like seeing. Cross-game threat assessment is a great thing ("oops, I know your commander's really strong now, so I'll work harder to remove them") but revenge is not cool ("you eliminated me last game, so I'll destroy all six of your creatures with Hex even though there's more threatening things endangering me because I'm gunning for you specifically to have a bad time this game").