Premodern Grixis or Esper - Suggestions on how to make a decent deck

Epleskall
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Post by Epleskall » 4 years ago

Hello everyone! I would like to make an EDH-deck where every card is from the premodern-era. I loved the artwork on these cards as a teenager during the 90s, and it just sounds so awesome to have a nostalgia-deck to play with.

My first thought was to make a Grixis deck with Nicol Bolas as the commander, but also have So'Kanar the Swamp King in the deck as a reserve. Here my first thought was some kind of reanimator-deck since I also have a weakspot for Sneak attack, and I like to play reanimator in general. My fear is that this might not work that well since the cardpool is kind of limited for awesome creatures to reanimate, but I could be wrong.

My second thought was to make Esper because of Dakkon Blackblade and Chromium. Here the best commander is probaly Ertai, the Corrupted? I'm not sure what directions would be best suited for Esper, but I guess it must be some sort of control-shell. White also give access to better boardwipes, and I get to play Land Tax for the beautiful artwork.

Since blue is in both Esper and Grixis, I plan on including many steal-effects such as Control Magic, Empress Galina and Treachery to play with my opponents card that have a higher power level.

I realize that the deck will struggle against newer and better cards, but I still want to make one of these decks. My main concern is winconditions, and it probably needs to be a combo of some kind. I don't want the deck to rely solely on combo to win, but I guess it might be hard to achieve otherwise. I'm not sure what that combo might be, but maybe something like Palinchron + High Tide+ something else? Or maybe Power Artifact + Basalt Monolith. I have most of the artifactcards required for this combo, but I'm also interested in combos based on creatures that also will be ok to play on their own.

I would love to hear your suggestions on how to make this deck, and what combos I can use to eventually win the game. If you have decklists to share for inspiration, that would also be highly appreciated.

(Budget is not that big of a concern since I plan on making this a petdeck of mine. Once the deck is complete there will never be released a new card for the deck, so I guess that's nice)

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Unfortunately big fatty targets for reanimation and sneak attack in the premodern era are pretty bad. They had a habit of printing bigger creatures with horrendous upkeep costs.

Here is a list of 6 cmc or greater creatures in Grixis that would be the "best" potential targets, and I think we can agree that they are pretty average.
Rorix Bladewing, Scion of Darkness, Spirit of the Night, Sun Quan, Lord of Wu, Thunder Dragon, Tsabo Tavoc, Vampiric Dragon, Visara the Dreadful, Volrath the Fallen, Witch Engine, Worldgorger Dragon, Kilnmouth Dragon, Laccolith Titan, Minion of the Wastes, Nefashu, Crosis, the Purger, Delraich, Drifting Djinn, Fire Dragon, Firestorm Phoenix, Hypnox, Imperial Hellkite
Upkeep costs: Demonic Hordes, Devouring Strossus, Dragon Tyrant, Minion of Leshrac, Infernal Denizen.

The best takeaway is that you can run Worldgorger Dragon + Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy combo, to get infinite mana, and infinite ETB.


If you're looking to the 90's AND budget is not an option then your power cards are based around storm.
Think Time Spiral, Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, Yawgmoth's Will.
Then you have amazing artifact mana to back up the dump hands and refills, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith.
You also have some rituals Cabal Ritual, Dark Ritual, Desperate Ritual.

Honestly you can get pretty close to a Tier 1 deck, just the mana base is going to be harder without some of the duels and fetchlands.

There is tons more to this theme premodern I'm sure, but it's definitely where the strength lies when Magic was young.

As far as win conditions, if you afforded yourself one card that wasn't modern legal then Thassa's Oracle is all you need as Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact are enablers.

If you were still fixated on reanimation then Zur the Enchanter is the best option as he can search for Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy.
However Esper affords you even less reanimation targets as Red often has the fatty Dragons, while White has even more mediocre options.

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Segrus
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Post by Segrus » 4 years ago

My inclination would be to work with Zur the Enchanter and build an aggro control build. You'll still have access to Necropotence, which will be a pretty big deal. Arcane Laboratory, Solitary Confinement, Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Aura of Silence, and Crackdown fit well into a control build as well. But that's all somewhat disregarding the reanimation build you're thinking of.

The only other reanimation targets I could think of in the Esper category would be Dromar and Akroma. Scion of Darkness too, I suppose, but you're just further slipping down away from quickly game winning. (Some of these have had more recent printings, but originally came from sets before 8th ed. so I'm guessing that's tolerable.)

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Shabbaman
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Post by Shabbaman » 4 years ago

How did you get to that selection?

One of the best fatties to reanimate is also pretty good to run on its own: Avatar of Woe. I played a reanimator deck during Odyssey/Onslaught standard. The beauty there is outside Grixis colors though (but in Esper): Akroma, Angel of Wrath. Onslaught block has decent fatties, but getting Arcanis the Omnipotent out is a decent gameplan, but nothing beats Scion of Darkness. Butcher Orgg is decently sized.The deck also had Doomed Necromancer: not a fatty, but if you're looking for reanimation spells in the only proper cardframe, there it is. Also Stitch Together.

Back to Invasion block brings Bloodfire Colossus, a nice sweeper. Going back further gets you to Masques block, which, well, hm. The classic reanimator targets are mostly green, like Multani, Maro-Sorcerer or Verdant Force, but there's always Spirit of the Night.
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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Shabbaman wrote:
4 years ago
How did you get to that selection?
I just did a search on gatherer for creatures 6 cmc and above in "not modern" and quickly skimmed through them, so there will be some I've missed for sure. I also had to bypass all the creatures that are in commander products as they are not modern but still printed outside of the 90's.

Epleskall
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Post by Epleskall » 4 years ago

I did not consider Timetwister when I said budget is not that important, so I have to exclude that one. I'm however willing to get a LED for the deck, if I can make good use of that to win games. Other than that it seems like the best route to go is to skip reanimator due to weak creatures, and rather focus on Esper control with some sort of combo.

Zur the Enchanter is not printed in the premodern-era, but I guess I could make an exception for the commander. It will make him different from the rest of the deck, and the printing from Coldsnap still have that old feel with the frame. That would be the only exception I can make, the rest of the deck needs to be from premodern.

Is storm still an option with Zur? I have never played a stormdeck before, so I'm not that familiar with how it works. Never faced someone playing Zur either, so I'm not quite sure what to expect from his playstyle. I have the artifact-mana listed above, so those cards are ready to go into the deck. I also have Yawgmoth's Will, but never used it in any decks. If that card would fit into this playstile, that would be awesome! Always wanted an excuse to play that card.

Are there perhaps other ways to win with Zur with my restrictions that do not include storm?

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Epleskall wrote:
4 years ago
I did not consider Timetwister when I said budget is not that important, so I have to exclude that one. I'm however willing to get a LED for the deck, if I can make good use of that to win games. Other than that it seems like the best route to go is to skip reanimator due to weak creatures, and rather focus on Esper control with some sort of combo.

Zur the Enchanter is not printed in the premodern-era, but I guess I could make an exception for the commander. It will make him different from the rest of the deck, and the printing from Coldsnap still have that old feel with the frame. That would be the only exception I can make, the rest of the deck needs to be from premodern.

Is storm still an option with Zur? I have never played a stormdeck before, so I'm not that familiar with how it works. Never faced someone playing Zur either, so I'm not quite sure what to expect from his playstyle. I have the artifact-mana listed above, so those cards are ready to go into the deck. I also have Yawgmoth's Will, but never used it in any decks. If that card would fit into this playstile, that would be awesome! Always wanted an excuse to play that card.

Are there perhaps other ways to win with Zur with my restrictions that do not include storm?
Oh my bad, I thought Zur was Ice Age. There are plenty of ways to win with Zur outside of storm.

Voltron is possible with Empyrial Armor, Unquestioned Authority and using Necropotence to make sure you have 7 cards for the Armor to hit hard.
The thing is that it requires so little cards in your 99, that no matter what your build you can add it as a way to pressure opponents regardless of how your deck is built.

Stax is also viable as a lot of the mana denial cards were printed in the 90's. For example Aura of Silence, Stasis, Mana Vortex, Back to Basics, Overburden.
Then you back this up with artifacts like Sphere of Resistance, Static Orb, Winter Orb, Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere, Smokestack, Cursed Totem.

As [mention]Segrus[/mention] pointed out control is easy to do with so many ways to draw cards in Necropotence, Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora.
Unfortunately you don't have access to enchantment removal like Oblivion Ring, Banishing Light, Detention Sphere, etc as they are all printed much later, so your removal has to be outside of what Zur can tutor.

As far as Yawgmoth's Will, with Necropotence exiling cards it does work against it somewhat. But you can almost be assured that in any build you can get some pretty great value. Outside of storm it's not going to be quite the same bomb card, but even if you get a land and cast two spells, that is still a 3 for 1, which is fine.

Storm is certainly a viable option, Necropotence being the key card to make sure you always have fuel, as storm is about a threshold of spells to go off.

BTW Vanishing and Teferi's Veil are first ports of call for Zur to protect himself. Phasing is surprisingly powerful when it comes to making sure Zur remains in play to get a tutor each turn.

Let me know which direction you might want to head, and I can certainly give you the core cards I would build for a premodern themed deck.

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Segrus
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Post by Segrus » 4 years ago

Big oof on Zur. I was trying to be careful about double checking cards, and of course I completely miss Zur being Cold Snap. I'm sorry about that. In that case, I'd push for Ertai and build a similar control deck. You'd still use a lot of the same pieces as Zur, you just don't get to pop them out as readily. You may have to consider some number of tutors, like Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor. Thankfully there's some number of small creatures you can recur from the graveyard for cheap, like Brood of Cockroaches and Nether Spirit to power Ertai.

The win condition could hinge on a combo, although you could also consider stealing your opponent's stuff to win. Clone, Legacy's Allure, Desertion. Normally solely relying on stealing stuff to win doesn't work out though, at least for me. It's putting to much hope that your opponents are running something really strong.

Epleskall
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Post by Epleskall » 4 years ago

I guess I want it to be a controldeck with some combo, if the other options are voltron and stax. My playgroup would most likely not enjoy me playing stax, and voltron is a style I'm not too excited about. Some of those staxcards are also not "legal" in my deck since the artifacts don't have a printing with brown frame :/

Like I mentioned earlier I could only think of infinite mana-combos with artifacts, but I like the idea to have a storm-combo in there as well since I've never played with it before. Looks like it's heading towards an controldeck with combo and some steal-effects, if such a thing can work.. I'll make a tappedout-link of the first draft of the deck later.

I would love to hear your suggestions on the core cards you would include in a deck like this. Really appreciate all the help I've got so far!

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Epleskall wrote:
4 years ago
I guess I want it to be a controldeck with some combo, if the other options are voltron and stax. My playgroup would most likely not enjoy me playing stax, and voltron is a style I'm not too excited about. Some of those staxcards are also not "legal" in my deck since the artifacts don't have a printing with brown frame :/

Like I mentioned earlier I could only think of infinite mana-combos with artifacts, but I like the idea to have a storm-combo in there as well since I've never played with it before. Looks like it's heading towards an controldeck with combo and some steal-effects, if such a thing can work.. I'll make a tappedout-link of the first draft of the deck later.

I would love to hear your suggestions on the core cards you would include in a deck like this. Really appreciate all the help I've got so far!
The heart wants what it wants. You expressed your desires in the original post, and this is a good thing, stick to what you interested in the first place.

The bad news is that I can't think of many combos in Esper that don't borrow from at least one card from Modern inclusive sets.

Control decks might look to stop what opponents are doing and then look to assemble a two card combo to finish off the game. Maybe something like Rest in Peace (Modern legal) + Helm of Obedience or these days Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation.
However there really isn't anything that simple in the "Old World".

You also can't can't just have a few cards that make a "storm combo". Storm is about an entire deck build, you have to dedicate a lot (most) of the cards in your deck to it.

Here are some card combinations I could think of for Esper...

Opalescence + Parallax Wave = Indefinite creature/enchantment kill

Hanna, Ship's Navigator + Second Chance + need life loss to get 5 life

Erratic Portal/Equilibrium + Time Warp + Scrivener

Mind Over Matter + Arcanis the Omnipotent

Karmic Guide + Volrath's Shapeshifter + sac outlet = infinite sacs

You can do Palinchron + High Tide but you need a certain number of Island in play, and a bit awkward with 3 colors. Not impossible, but just makes it harder. Also you need a third card to combo with as you've stated. Options include draw cards like, Stroke of Genius, Braingeyser to draw your deck and then use other draw to make opponents draw theirs to deck them.


The problem is that you can make a bunch of other combos but they get convoluted and honestly the cards individually don't support other elements unless you specifically design around them.

For example you could do similar things with Time Warp + Scrivener by using cards that get creatures back from the graveyard like Corpse Dance, but then you also need a sacrifice outlet like Phyrexian Altar. That's a 9 mana to loop each turn, and a lot of moving parts. If you're going to play a creature sacrifice outlet like Ashnod's Altar then you really want the rest of the deck to leverage off it.
Also in the context of a control deck, these cards look not very in tune with that concept.


But now we get into the much better news. You say you want to steal creatures and there is no better commander to helm your deck than Merieke Ri Berit.

There are some cards that you can use to untap Merieke Ri Berit to get use every turn.
Aphetto Alchemist, Pemmin's Aura, Puppeteer, Intruder Alarm, Puppet Strings, Mind Over Matter, Apathy, Dream Tides, Immobilizing Ink, Jandor's Saddlebags, Mist of Stagnation, Paralyze, Sands of Time, Trickster Mage.


So before any more direction is made you have to break down how much of the deck you want control? Here is a list of cards that I came up with.. Shauku, Endbringer, Avatar of Woe, Mageta the Lion, Visara the Dreadful are pretty nice reanimation targets and they specifically work with cards that untap creatures with Merieke Ri Berit.
Also of note Arcanis the Omnipotent work really well with untap cards.

And so here is where I think you can splash some reanimation in as well, leaving you exactly where you wanted to be in the first place.

So here is the core of the deck I think you could play..

Merieke Ri Berit Old School
Approximate Total Cost:

Just to explain some of the cards and their roles.

You do have some combos with Mind Over Matter being basically the signature card of the deck. You can simply use it to discard cards to get additional uses out of Merieke Ri Berit, and this combined with card draw is excellent.
But you do have an infinite combo with Arcanis the Omnipotent + Mind Over Matter where you can just draw your whole deck.
Lu Su, Wu Advisor and Talas Researcher aren't quite as good, but they do allow you to filter through your deck until you get to a card(s) that will allow you to do more.
Remember you are discarding cards to Mind Over Matter, so this sets you up for reanimating as well.

Pemmin's Aura combined with Merieke Ri Berit means that you can just spend a u to kill a creature.

Intruder Alarm also means that you can just kill a creature every time another creature comes into play.

Now there is also a lot of redundancy in the deck with Avatar of Woe, Visara the Dreadful, Royal Assassin, Empress Galina being creatures you can untap the same way to get major value.

Same with the draw creatures in Arcanis the Omnipotent/Lu Su, Wu Advisor/Talas Researcher, each time you get to untap with various cards.

There are a number of cards that let you discard for advantages, and these can be used to put some of your creatures into your graveyard for reanimation.
Mind Over Matter, Immobilizing Ink, Foil, Forbid, Cephalid Coliseum.

Intuition can be used like a Buried Alive putting some creatures into your graveyard for reanimation.

Now the reason that I would include Opalescence + Parallax Wave even though this deck is full of creature removal and steal, is that Opalescence makes opponents enchantments into creatures, meaning that your creature targeting cards, can now get enchantments.
This is the same reason why Karn, Silver Golem is in the deck, so that you can turn artifacts into creatures.

Flash + Academy Rector allows you to put any enchantment into play, and there are a number for you to choose from given the situation.
The most likely is Mind Over Matter, but it's possible that you just need Necropotence for filling up your hand.
You can even do things like get an Animate Dead at instant speed to return one of your creatures in a pinch.

Replenish is a supremely powerful card if the game has gone really long, and opponents have dealt with a lot of your enchantments.
You can even use Intuition as a way to cheat some enchantments into play as well.

Scroll Rack can be used with Land Tax to give you 3 new fresh cards each turn. It also is way of putting creatures from your hand back into your library, so that you can use Entomb/Buried Alive/Intuition if you want to target them.
Scroll Rack does work best with shuffle effects, and unfortunately the "good" fetchlands are Modern playable, but there are plenty of tutors in the deck which will end up shuffling your deck.

Forbid is a powerhouse for control and look to discard to setup reanimation, even for Replenish. With Land Tax you can just keep discarding basic lands.

Abduction is a steal creature card, but you can target Merieke Ri Berit to untap her, and then she basically has a totem armor on her, so that you can get her back if removed.

Winds of Rath is chosen over other mass creature removal, because it works with the enchant auras that steal creatures, and also the reanimation enchantments.

I'm sure there is much that could be tweaked, but if I do say so myself, it's looking like a really great first draft for these stipulation concepts.

Epleskall
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Post by Epleskall » 4 years ago

Wow, you are a god among mortals! Thank you so much for this post!

I'm going to look closer on this post when I get back home again over the weekend, and start buying/trading for some cards. The list even included Karn, Silver Golem, and I still have that card which I opened in a booster so many years ago. It's going to be a blast putting this deck together, truly awesome!

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