Kess + Adventures

[Cyberium]

So a while back I asked a question in Ruling forum in regards to casting Adventure (or its creature counterpart) from places outside of my hand: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/mag ... and-haakon

The conclusion appears to be:

Now, under the reworked 601.3e, you just check legality based on what you actually want to do, rather than go through those hoops. Makes a lot more sense.

Example: Garruk's Horde says, in part, "You may cast the top card of your library if it's a creature card." If you control Garruk's Horde and the top card of your library is a noncreature card with morph, you may cast it using its morph ability.

Example: Melek, Izzet Paragon says, in part, "You may cast the top card of your library if it's an instant or sorcery card." If you control Melek, Izzet Paragon and the top card of your library is Giant Killer, an adventurer creature card whose Adventure is an instant named Chop Down, you may cast Chop Down but not Giant Killer. If instead you control Garruk's Horde and the top card of your library is Giant Killer, you may cast Giant Killer but not Chop Down.

In other words, since Kess, Dissident Mage let you cast instant or sorcery from your graveyard once per your turn, you can technically cast Adventures from the dead as well. And, if you have a sac outlet like Ashnod's Altar/Phyrexian Tower you can sac an Adventure creature and cast it again from grave. When we return those creatures from their respective Adventure, we could pay 1 extra for Equilibrium to bounce another Adventure creature back to hand for usage, somewhat bypasses Kess's restriction.

Kess is known to be a spellsling value commander, creature is usually the minority of the deck, though with the new Adventure creature we could now have some board presence, aiming for more longevity. I don't mind saccing the said creatures for mana then cast other spells also. I wonder if this would be a fun alternative approach for her.

[Sinis]

The conclusion is super wrong. The note below from the ELD release notes states that cards with the Adventure type are creatures in all zones but the stack. Since any given adventurer is not an Instant or Sorcery in the graveyard, it can't be cast with Kess.

"An adventurer card is a creature card in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases. For example, while it's in your graveyard, Giant Killer is a white creature card whose converted mana cost is 1. It can't be the target of the triggered ability of Mystic Sanctuary."

Source: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2019-09-20

Apparently I'm wrong! Mea culpa

[WizardMN]

The conclusion is correct. I will just copy my response I made on MTGSalvation:

Kess can cast Instants in the Graveyard since you, basically, look at them as Instants or Sorceries and then see if anything lets you cast them. Normally, this is the normal rules, but Kess allows this as well.

Rule 601.3e has already been quoted but there is this rule too:

715.3a. When casting an adventurer card as an Adventure, only the alternative characteristics are evaluated to see if it can be cast.

This means that you *first* look at the card as an Adventure before you actually try to cast it (more or less). So, you look at the Adventure as an Instant or Sorcery and then see if anything allow it to be cast. Which Kess does.

This also means that you cannot cast an Adventure off of Vivien, Champion of the Wilds because as soon as you look at it as an Instant or Sorcery there is no longer anything allowing you to cast it. Haakon, Stromgald Scourge or Karador, Ghost Chieftain are the same and also do not allow Adventures to be cast.

[Cyberium]

The conclusion is super wrong. The note below from the ELD release notes states that cards with the Adventure type are creatures in all zones but the stack. Since any given adventurer is not an Instant or Sorcery in the graveyard, it can't be cast with Kess.

"An adventurer card is a creature card in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases. For example, while it's in your graveyard, Giant Killer is a white creature card whose converted mana cost is 1. It can't be the target of the triggered ability of Mystic Sanctuary."

Source: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2019-09-20

Apparently I'm wrong! Mea culpa

Which is why I linked the response in my OP: You now decide which type of spell to cast first, and if part of the card has valid type and the casting condition is also valid, then you can cast it.

Which is why I wanted to see how people feel about this approach with Kess, now that she could potentially have more creatures on the board and a way to loop their Adventures, such as the aforementioned saccing method, or bouncing them.

Potential looping sequence: Adventure (from Hand/Grave) → Adventure Creature (from Exile) → Bounce/Sac → Repeat

[Serenade]

When you cast it as an Adventure, you then exile it. One of those first two has to go (or have a slash instead of an arrow).

[pokken]

I think a couple of the better ones are fairly reasonable to play with Kess. brazen borrower and the one that kills artifacts (embereth shieldwhatever?). Maybe hypnotic sprite, maybe murderous rider.

[Cyberium]

When you cast it as an Adventure, you then exile it. One of those first two has to go (or have a slash instead of an arrow).

You are correct, I will fix. :3

I think a couple of the better ones are fairly reasonable to play with Kess. brazen borrower and the one that kills artifacts (embereth shieldwhatever?). Maybe hypnotic sprite, maybe murderous rider.

Hypnotic Sprite counters surprisingly many efficient removals, like Swords and Anguished Unmaking and several other staple counter spells. It also counters free spells like Pact of Negation and its ilks. Order of Midnight allows you grab Adventures back from graveyard in case Kess is not around (or just grab Kess when she dies). I think Leyline of Anticipation is a good add just to make the cycling even smoother.

[Serenade]

The real bummer is that when you Adventure it from the GY, you can't trigger Desecrated Tomb. =P

[Wallycaine]

Hypnotic Sprite seems rough to actually recur with Kess, since you need someone to cast a spell you want to counter on your turn. Then again, just leaving the threat of it in your graveyard is probably helpful.

I wouldn't overlook Bonecrusher Giant. Even if it's not the most efficient shock, being able to repeatedly recur it goes a long way to increasing it's value. And occasionally you'll blow out someone's Angus Mackenzie deck with it :D

Foulmire Knight is another one that the ability to recur might push over the top, even if neither end is super efficient. Small deathtouchers are a good way to deter attacks, which works well with the grindy nature of this sort of deck, I think.

Other than those and the ones already mentioned in the thread, Fae of wishes is the only other one that's worth considering, and only if your local group allows a wishboard or some other way of handling wishes.

[Serenade]

I do like the idea of having extra bodies for one-off sac effects from opponents.

[pokken]

The real bummer is that when you Adventure it from the GY, you can't trigger Desecrated Tomb. =P

Are you sure? I don't think the characteristics of the card change when you cast it, it's still a creature card leaving the graveyard. Don't want to get into rules stuff too much.

[Serenade]

I do want to get into rules stuff. If you are casting it as an Adventure from your GY with Kess's ability, does that card trigger DT?

[pokken]

The rules forum will get you an answer on that for sure. Probably worth asking and save it for posterity.

I am *fairly sure* based on the wording that a creature card still leaves the yard, but you'll want an official judge ruling before you try to play it that way

[WizardMN]

It appears that the answer is that the Tomb does trigger based off of:

715.4. In every zone except the stack, and while on the stack not as an Adventure, an adventurer card has only its normal characteristics.

So, it is only a creature card in the yard

And:

603.10. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions, and continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities are exceptions to this rule; the game "looks back in time" to determine if those abilities trigger, using the existence of those abilities and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event. The list of exceptions is as follows:

603.10a. Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a card leaves a graveyard, and abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library.

Which means we look back in time to right before it left the graveyard to see what its characteristics are

With these two rules, and the way "leaves-the-graveyard" triggers work, it seems pretty clear cut that any card that is cast from the graveyard will be seen as a creature card by anything that looks for the card leaving since the Adventure is not an Instant or Sorcery until already on the stack and looking back in time sees a creature card right before it is cast.

EDIT:

Also, since the thread tends to get derailed on rules nuances, I wanted to comment on the stuff the OP actually wants to read

I think the Adventure Mechanic allows for a more creature centric build but not to a large degree. Murderous Rider, Brazen Borrower, Foulmire Knight, and Merchant of the Vale might be the top of my list, Maybe Embereth Shieldbreaker if you find you want more Artifact destruction, Some others mentioned can still be good

In all, I don't think there are enough Adventures that are good enough to warrant looking at this as a completely different build though it might add some additional utility out of some creature bounce effects that have been mentioned. But, unless you add in more cards that aren't adventures (or some of the less useful ones) that would also benefit from cards that work with Adventures, I think it would be tough to do a lot with adding effects just for their synergy with Adventures.

[hyalopterouslemur]

Why not ask the Rules forum?