Esper vs Bant

tempoEDH
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Post by tempoEDH » 4 years ago

Discussion with some friends, looking for outside opinions. Overall, in EDH, would you consider Bant or Esper to be the better 3-color combination? Not deciding based on available commanders, only on pool outside of command zone. All evidence and opinions are welcome.
Current Decks:
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Karlov of the Ghost Council EDH
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant EDH
Edgar Markov EDH
Emmara, Soul of the Accord EDH
Yarok, the Desecrated EDH
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
Kalamax (No infinites) EDH
Ghalta EDH
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Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa/Silas Renn, Seeker Adept EDH
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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 4 years ago

Clearly the answer is GWUB Tymna + Thrasios. /s

In seriousness although these two color combinations have some all-time classic commanders like Zur and Derevi, I would say that overall GWU has the edge simply for access to ramp.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Important Facts: Colorless is not a color, Wastes is not a land type, Changeling is not a creature type

tempoEDH
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Post by tempoEDH » 4 years ago

Our main debate ends up being whether that ramp will be relevant as opposed to tutors/control
Current Decks:
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Karlov of the Ghost Council EDH
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant EDH
Edgar Markov EDH
Emmara, Soul of the Accord EDH
Yarok, the Desecrated EDH
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
Kalamax (No infinites) EDH
Ghalta EDH
Current Projects:
Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa/Silas Renn, Seeker Adept EDH
Neheb, the Eternal EDH

tempoEDH
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Post by tempoEDH » 4 years ago

Stems off of a thing where we just ranked all the 3 color combinations from best to worst. Number one was sultai, of course. I put then esper and grixis, and he put bant then esper, so we're discussing.
Current Decks:
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Karlov of the Ghost Council EDH
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant EDH
Edgar Markov EDH
Emmara, Soul of the Accord EDH
Yarok, the Desecrated EDH
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
Kalamax (No infinites) EDH
Ghalta EDH
Current Projects:
Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa/Silas Renn, Seeker Adept EDH
Neheb, the Eternal EDH

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 4 years ago

Unrestricted tutoring is great but black's advantage in that respect is mitigated by the fact that G gets creature and land tutoring, W gets enchantment, some artifact, and some creature tutoring, and U gets instant/sorcery and artifact tutoring anyhow. Yes, you get to put more removal in the suite with black too, but on the whole, I would prefer to add green as as third color in this format.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Important Facts: Colorless is not a color, Wastes is not a land type, Changeling is not a creature type

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Team Esper for me, largely because the really busted cards are in black. Demonic Tutor, etc. I think modern black cards are probably weaker than green ones, but EDH is an eternal format.

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cryogen
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Post by cryogen » 4 years ago

Depends at what power level you're talking. I think at a 75% tier and lower Bant wins out because of the access to ramp and ways to close out games by turning cards sideways. At the CEDH tier I think Esper has the necessary consistency via tutors. Land based ramp isn't as important because you are going to be running all the fetches for mana smoothing, and cheap artifact ramp is more important than a Cultivate.
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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

Agree with Cryogen. In cEDH, Esper is better.
Though I will say that in cEDH ramp is in the form of mana dorks and carpet of flowers, not cultivate.
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Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

I think it's difficult to separate color pairs from their commanders, especially when using data.

My initial thought is Esper is better, but now I'm not sure.
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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

My vote goes with Bant.

I find in general that green cards compliment cards outside of green more than black cards do. Sure black has the tutors, but then casting costs become difficult with a lot of hallmark black cards.
Necropotence, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Grave Pact.
Or not good outside of mono-black Crypt Ghast, Cabal Coffers.

Green allows you to color fix more, so that it's easier to play other colors.
I find that green is a bit more versatile than black with mana, draw, removal (anything). Black can give you draw, but giving you mana is quite a specific thing to having Swamps which isn't good when color pairing. Black biggest thing it can do over Green (besides tutoring) is mass creature removal, but we have White that can do that in Bant and Esper color pairings anyway.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I think BUG is the best 3 color combination and it is not very close.

Esper is better than bant; it's tough because ramping on turn 1 is great. But tutoring is better.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

Of the two, I think Bant is more forgiving. Splashing green allows so much in terms of ironing out your draws and land drops. Esper really struggles for this, and regardless of your build there's almost certainly going to be a reliance on rocks to make your mana work. Tutoring is a plus, but I feel like Bant makes up for a relative lack of this with innate draw value in and ramp in .

This being said I've never built Bant, and I currently run Esper, so my skin in the game says Esper is more fun :grin:
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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I think BUG is the best 3 color combination and it is not very close.
I mean, I think everyone will safely agree that if you cut out Boros, you're left with the best parts of Magic for EDH.

I mean, if we're talking best individual colours period, I'd say Black is first, followed by some tie between green/blue. My heart lies with Dimir, but I have a suspicion that Golgari is stronger.

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