Gavin Verhey and Command Zone announcement video!

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

I can totally relate to release fatigue. I was completely desensitised by the time M20 spoilers rolled around, and welcomed the post-ELD release lull as an opportunity to recharge. Said lull was broken by the mystery booster announcement, but hopefully that's going to be more reprint focused.

The main reason release onslaughts are exhausting are new cards to evaluate. Nobody winced at Game Night 2019, as all the new cards come in the form of one screenshot (and nothing was crazy relevant anyway). If the decks come with some relevant reprints - cool. But that's not that much brain juice that will need to be burned to process that information. I think that's why 2019 was particularly bad, as the innovation product was far heavier on new cards than what tends to be the case.

So with that in mind, the barrage of releases that this video announces is not actually that fatiguing. Lining up C20 with an actual set release feels questionable, but if that's what it takes to keep themselves motivated then so be it. The supplemental precons coming out later are few, and have virtually no new cards in them. Minimal effort required to process them. You'll hardly exert yourself with FTV: EDH, Episode I on similar grounds. The big news is Commander Masters (I can't imagine this won't come with a hiked MSRP when they mention 20 card packs with a promise of a foil in each), but that's one extra product to stomach. Plus, I'm not gonna lie, it sounds like an exciting one. Gavin's built up a bunch of confidence via BBD, so I'm inclined to trust him that it'll be good.

Hopefully they've put the available reprint slots to good use. That was the main avenue where 2019 has failed, so far at least. Maybe the mystery boosters will change this somehow.
 
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Post by Sharpened » 4 years ago

I understand the fatigue, but I think in this case it's misplaced.

Look, this announcement seems like "more, more, more" but really isn't. (And that's not a bad thing).

The Ikoria Commander decks - that's just Commander 2020 decks, which we were going to get anyway. They just tied it to the new set (positive), went back to 5 decks and are adding more new cards then before.

The Zendikar Rising Precon Commander decks - For the most part, all reprints in a product most people weren't going to touch anyway. The planeswalker intro decks are filler to be ignored. Changing them to Commander decks seems like a positive. Now, the 6 new cards (3 in each) worry me a little. It's too few cards to feel justified in getting the product if thats what you want, so I hope they are weak/niche.

The Green EDH spellbook - There was going to be one anyway. Instead of Jace of Gideon, now it's tied to the format. I think it's a nice shift, especially when planeswalker fatigue is definitely a thing at the moment. Just reprints and pretty things for those who want them.

Commander Legends - Now here is the real meat of the announcement.
On one hand, it's just this years Conspiracy/Battlebond/Unstable supplemental set. So in that regard, it's not like they are putting out more. But it's awesome and exciting and lets them do some otherwise neat things.
  • It's a widespread intro to limited commander, which many people who do not have access to a commander cube do not get to experience.
  • It's a way to get foil and nonfoil reprints out there. I'm sure there are players who would murder a small child to get a foil Dockside Extortionist or Command Beacon. That may be possible with this. Also, many of the Commander product commanders who only exist in foil can now have nonfoil versions. Very awesome indeed.
  • It let's them put real valuable reprints out there without causing collateral problems. If you put a $50 card in a precon, people will charge more for the precon. Or you have situations where people buy up the precons to resell cards and leverage the arbitrage opportunities, affecting the decks availability. Precon reprints have a delicate balance they have to try and tread. Reprints in packs have a much wider latitude of value without causing issues.
It's an exciting announcement. My budgets are certainly tighter than I'd like, but a draftable commander set seems pretty awesome, and the structure of the releases gives me more hopes for driving down the value of expensive cards with reprints, instead of the more typical flood of basically bulk mythics/rares.

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Post by RedCheese » 4 years ago

Wizards is going to be bloating commander so mutch....

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Lol apparently it is a kamigawa creature so I'm in for some delicious hat.

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Post by Candlemane » 4 years ago

The fatigue!

In all seriousness, I'm only saving money for Commander Legends. I'll pick up singles of other stuff if I feel the need. I just hope they give us well balanced commanders and not straight broken ones. Some that can run a big spectrum from casual to 75% (or cEDH) would be a welcome addition (I know you can build whatever however, but still).

I'd love a more... Fixed? Version of Tariel myself. New doesn't exclude redone or redo.

Also, I immediately thought of Rites of Flourishing for the art in relation to Azusa. Wonder if it's a flourishing creature, though I think they said it was a reprint anyway.
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Post by vandertroll » 4 years ago

I think that I know what's going to happen. Every new commander precon that is tied to a plane will be mediocre filler with 3-4 super good reprints that will deflect criticism. I hope that I'm proven wrong of course. As for the booster thing , it may follow every wotc pattern of releasing a brand new sealed product line. Make it super good so everyone gets a huge FOMO and crap on it at the subsequent releases.
I'd prefer annual commander's arsenal type of release which could put staples and some reprints for commander players. There is tons of data about which cards are absolutely needed for each color for new players and also tons of data (duh, prices) about which edh-related cards need reprints. I guess that's not profitable enough..
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

I know people are pumped about Commander Masters at the outset, but let's reign in our expectations a bit. It's still being designed for limited, which means it'll be full of chaff, especially at lower rarities. They'll also use the 'foil in every pack' gimmick to jack up the price, and probably concentrate the majority of the value at Mythic.

I hope to be proven wrong, but WotC's approach to this kind of thing is pretty well-established at this point.
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Post by Sharpened » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
I know people are pumped about Commander Masters at the outset, but let's reign in our expectations a bit. It's still being designed for limited, which means it'll be full of chaff, especially at lower rarities. They'll also use the 'foil in every pack' gimmick to jack up the price, and probably concentrate the majority of the value at Mythic.

I hope to be proven wrong, but WotC's approach to this kind of thing is pretty well-established at this point.
I mean, that describes every set in the past 15 to 20 years. It describes colossal successes like Modern Masters, Conspiracy, Battlebond, and Modern Horizons. Those sets are pretty awesome. The limited environments created by those sets are pretty awesome. The value of the cards printed/reprinted in those sets have been pretty nice too.

You seem to basically be saying "Don't get too excited, it's still a magic set." And it is. It's still a magic set. I find that pretty exciting. On top of that, it's one that creates a new limited experience - a new way to play commander for most people - and that could not be more exciting.

Personally, I find that looking at and enjoying the positives of anything make me a happier person. I don't ignore the negatives, but life is better when I don't act the same way that Eeyore does. Perhaps reigning in the negativity would be worth considering.

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

I am strongly opposed to the precons with only 3 new cards. Sounds more like a Planeswalker deck. Unless they really push the reprints it will be kinda useless.
I am looking forward to the Ikoria Commander decks and Commander Legends draft format. 20 cards/pack is kinda wacked though.
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Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

We don't know the price yet, do we? Consider that commander sets is an opportunity for reprints valuable to Modern/Legacy, it technically could be a "master" set if they choose to, and they've emphasized on the reprints this time around.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

We know from battlebond that they are capable of doing a good job on a set that provides a lot for commander players. So having high hopes is not completely unreasonable.

(I would also guess the odds of the other half of the BB land cycle is fairly high which alone should be awesome).

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

Sharpened wrote:
4 years ago

[*]It's a way to get foil and nonfoil reprints out there. I'm sure there are players who would murder a small child to get a foil Dockside Extortionist or Command Beacon.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 4 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
4 years ago
I am strongly opposed to the precons with only 3 new cards. Sounds more like a Planeswalker deck. Unless they really push the reprints it will be kinda useless.
Honestly i'm happy i they are "upgrading" the precons.
Having a legendary that support a landfall deck, or an ally deck, or a trap/quest deck, or an eldrazi and processors deck sounds way more amazing that getting a %$#% 6-cost planeswalker.

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Post by Sharpened » 4 years ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
4 years ago
Dunharrow wrote:
4 years ago
I am strongly opposed to the precons with only 3 new cards. Sounds more like a Planeswalker deck. Unless they really push the reprints it will be kinda useless.
Honestly i'm happy i they are "upgrading" the precons.
Having a legendary that support a landfall deck, or an ally deck, or a trap/quest deck, or an eldrazi and processors deck sounds way more amazing that getting a %$#% 6-cost planeswalker.
It's a mixed bag.

The current planeswalker precons are pretty much ignored. The contain 2 rares from the current set and a few custom cards that are designed to be too low power to be standard playable,

Replacing them with a commander deck that's on the same level seems like a positive, if unexciting change. They are intro decks in many ways, most of us aren't the target audience for them. More commander intro decks for people seems like a small but positive thing.

It doesn't seem likely that any reprints included in them would be high value. I don't think you really want them to put high value reprints in them. You don't want enfranchised players scooping them up to strip for parts, that's not the target audience. Some nice cheap staples and some fun cards seem perfect for beginners.

It's the 3 new cards in each that worry me. Hopefully thy will continue to be things like Bramblefort Fink and not cards that would ever be in high demand. It would suck to have all the new commander precons bought up so the new players couldn't get them, and it would suck for the veterans to have to either buy the precon or hunt down singles of the new cards that are only available in the precons.

So really, the ideal situation for most existing players is that the precons are uninteresting. It's still a positive change, as it should make it easier for new players to get into commander. But it's not a big exciting one. The commander precons that come with Zendikar Rising probably won't be for US. It is weird to think about that and be like "Yup, that's a good thing" but here we are.

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Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

With all these new legends there better be a legendary Kavu.

Also, I'm hoping for a reprint of Idyllic Tutor. It's silly that it cost more than Demonic Tutor.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago



So they apparently just shuffled some release timings around, but it would appear there's probably nothing else major lurking in 2020 we haven't been notified of. At least in terms of new cards.
 
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Put sought after reprints in these decks, but not expensive reprints - stuff like your Regrowths, Restore, Pongify, Devour in Shadow, Abzan Charm, Lightning Bolt, Declaration in Stone. "Cog parts" like Thraben Inspector, Mystic Retrieval, Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead, Utopia Sprawl/Fertile Ground/Trace of Abundance, Counterspell, Languish, Decree of Pain, and some token, but classic graveyard hate (Relic of Progenitus would be perfect here). If you wanted to go the Modern Horizons route, you could make the basics the MH snow lands, reprint the snow duals + into the north and can get five easy re new prints with the snow enemy duals... Maybe add one chase card to the decks - rhystic study, land tax, worldly tutour, dockside extortionist, toxic deluge (or exquisite blood...).

You have a reprint in dire need for each colour, but not enough to justify shark buyouts + reflips, and at the base level you have a good intro point for players with clear upgrade direction while still maintaining the basic functionality that any deck needs. Great time to showcase a Scavenger Grounds in each deck to remind people that this card is an important one.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
I know people are pumped about Commander Masters at the outset, but let's reign in our expectations a bit. It's still being designed for limited, which means it'll be full of chaff, especially at lower rarities.
1) commander designed for limited is way more exciting than "more commander crap when there's already a ton". I will remain hyped.
2) limited doesn't force chaff cards into sets - cube is basically just limited without chaff and it's very popular. There's chaff in sets because wizards wants to print chaff.
vandertroll wrote:
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There is tons of data about which cards are absolutely needed for each color for new players and also tons of data (duh, prices) about which edh-related cards need reprints. I guess that's not profitable enough..
1) Nothing is absolutely needed in a non-tournament format.
2) If you think printing all the cards people whine about in one set wouldn't sell a gazillion packs, you're crazy. They don't do that because they're concerned with the long-term health of the game, which requires a relatively stable economy. Personally I'm glad wotc cares about the long-term health of the game instead of reprinting everything the moment it'll make them a buck - even if I think they're a bit conservative sometimes.
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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

2) limited doesn't force chaff cards into sets - cube is basically just limited without chaff and it's very popular. There's chaff in sets because wizards wants to print chaff.
I believe some of the chaff put in sets at least at the common and uncommon levels is because of limited.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
4 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
2) limited doesn't force chaff cards into sets - cube is basically just limited without chaff and it's very popular. There's chaff in sets because wizards wants to print chaff.
I believe some of the chaff put in sets at least at the common and uncommon levels is because of limited.
If wotc wanted to print a set where all the commons were powerful high-pickable cards they could absolutely do that. Draft doesn't require bad cards to be balanced and fun to play. Again, see cube.

The reason chaff exists is for everything EXCEPT limited. If you could make a top-tier standard deck with easily-available low-rarity cards, wotc wouldn't make money on standard players. Chaff exists to fill packs so that the format-driving rares and mythics stay valuable, and people keep opening packs to find them.

Now, the specific design of those cards is driven by limited play for the most part, granted, but that's within the context of "make a bunch of commons/uncommons, and make sure they aren't too powerful."
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

So, I guess I have some mixed feelings about all of this. I like having more options and new things to play with, my concern is that the cost of these products and the price of these cards can run kind of high especially if they push cards (Teferi's Protection). The idea of multiple commander decks with every set release sounds extremely taxing. In fact getting all of the commander decks that released even just once a year can be quite the chore. The brawl decks that just released felt like they had ridiculous prices on singles with decks that you essentially could not find. My fears are primarily on this front.

What I really don't want is a bunch of foced cards that are pushed to the point that they need to be played everywhere or even considered for a banning. I have had such a bad taste with Throne of Eldrane recently and my fears kind of come from the recent pushes of cards in War of the Spark, M2020, and Throne. All three sets have felt like they were forcing the envelope and possibly printing things that might need to be banned in standard. I guess my concern is that wizards has been pushing high priced chace cards lately and I don't want them doing that to commander.

I am all for having sweet new niche cards for commander. My fear comes from their new focus to push cards and drive sales. Wizards has been at this for many years but it feels like the urge to push things is high right now and they are literally driving too much new product to the market.

Outside of my fears of cost and corporate greed, yea I guess seeing more playable commander cards in a year is nice. I am just gunshy as I feel like a lot of their recent moves have been a little questionable and driven by making more money. I love commander but I don't exactly want to give wizards more money than I already do.
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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
Hermes_ wrote:
4 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
2) limited doesn't force chaff cards into sets - cube is basically just limited without chaff and it's very popular. There's chaff in sets because wizards wants to print chaff.
I believe some of the chaff put in sets at least at the common and uncommon levels is because of limited.
If wotc wanted to print a set where all the commons were powerful high-pickable cards they could absolutely do that. Draft doesn't require bad cards to be balanced and fun to play. Again, see cube.
my problem with using Cube as an example,is that who ever built the cube chooses what goes into it right? IGNORE THIS!
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

Now, the specific design of those cards is driven by limited play for the most part, granted, but that's within the context of "make a bunch of commons/uncommons, and make sure they aren't too powerful."
then maybe I'm just conflating chaff with design's context.
Last edited by Hermes_ 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

I'm not following your logic. Every draftable set is constructed by someone. Cube's also constructed by someone.
 
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Post by Hermes_ » 4 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
I'm not following your logic. Every draftable set is constructed by someone. Cube's also constructed by someone.
yeah, I was gonna delete my comment,since ever I had no idea where i was going with it but then you replied lol
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 4 years ago

Honestly, between my current work schedule and wizards release schedule I feel very overwhelmed with options. The irony is I can afford to aquire what I want for my collection but don't have enough time to brew and play. I'm seeing the power creep glaring at me lately and don't love it either. We are getting dangerously close to breaking edh with some of these commanders. Kenrith, golos, greven are all ones I've played that far and away exceeded my expectations of what can be done. Nevermind the more obvious ones like chulane, anje, korvold, and so forth. All in all, I feel that the release schedule and power level of these cards is exhausting both for my brain and wallet, and is starting to make commander feel more like a 60 card format
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