Theft, Protection, and the Value of Commander Decks

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I wanted to respond to this in the RCotD, but conversation had already moved on, and I figured it could probably use its own thread.

(RE: Timetwister)
Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
gilrad wrote:
4 years ago
Definitely in the category of cards that, if I were ever driven to run it, i'd opt to bring a proxy instead. Playing with expensive and powerful cards is fun and all, but there's a practicality threshold where you're essentially carrying a bag full of a non-insignificant slice of your net worth.
This. I remember reading an article about how Magic cards are among the most liquid and fungible assets people just kind of carry around without any respect for the value it has. If you have an Underground Sea in your deck, it is near equivalent to its buylist price in cash. There are stores in my home city (Toronto) that will pay you cash on the spot for your trade-ins. They might cut you a cheque if it's over a certain amount, but, carrying valuable Magic is basically carrying around something resembling cash.

But we don't treat it that way. If you were carrying around 5k in cash, you a) probably wouldn't, and b) would protect it with more than some deck boxes and a backpack.

I am at the point that my collection causes me anxiety. Some decks do not leave the house, and I have been considering just selling the really big ticket cards, or buying a small airtight fireproof safe for them.
I've only once had any cards stolen of mine: a rith, the awakener by a bully way back in high school. These days my average deck value is probably in the neighborhood of at least a couple thousand. Not many quite make it to 5K, but I did recently build my all-lands deck with tabernacle, the 6 available duals, full fetches, etc. Most cards I bought long enough ago that the value is significantly higher than what I paid - my tabernacle was $400 which is the most I've ever spent on a single card.

I definitely get nervous sometimes about my collection, especially recently as I ran a few commander-cube drafts with my duals and some other valuable cards. But I'm generally pretty bad about keeping a tight watch on my collection, and I've had at least a couple times where I'm semi-frantically looking around for my cards, only to realize I left them abandoned on a table somewhere, or in a backpack that got kicked under a table or whatever.

My experience thus far has been that the vast majority of magic players are very honest when it comes to cards, especially considering how expensive so many of them can be. But despite how many places I've played, it's still a fairly limited sample size, and I do of course hear horror stories about people having cards stolen. I honestly have little idea of how likely theft is.

To a certain extent, I think I worry less about the value of my cards because, at the end of the day, I paid what I paid, and I don't really have much intent to sell anytime soon. So as far as I'm concerned, my tabernacle is still $400. Which is a lot, but it's a lot less than it's currently worth. And I paid that much because I wanted to play with the card, not to let it sit on a shelf and just be valuable.

I generally disdain non-medical insurance, on the reasoning that, unless you absolutely cannot afford the potential risk (i.e. cancer treatment costs), then your EV is better to remain uninsured, since the insurance company wouldn't be in business if it didn't think you were paying in more than your expected withdrawal. At this point the value of my collection is getting high enough that it does kind of stray into the "too valuable to risk" territory (outside of the fact that, obviously, I don't really "need" my cards).

I think people are pretty bad at estimating risk - one thing that came up in another thread, and I've seen the TCC prof highly recommend, is double sleeving. People are often surprised I don't double-sleeve my collection, but my experience has been that any risk of water damage is very unlikely so long as you're reasonably careful, and that the hassle of shuffling double-sleeved cards is pretty significant, not to mention the cost of double-sleeving a large collection both in time and expense.

I think when people think about their cards, they tend to think about the worst case scenario, and not about the actual chance of that occurring - both in terms of theft, and in terms of damage. I just watched a double-sleeving video from the prof where he recommends using self-sealed double-sleeves for those with "thousand dollar commander decks" which I found kind of amusing, since $1000 is much lower than most decks I build, and I don't even regular double-sleeve. He argues that they're worth it "for those who don't want a speck of harm to come to their favourite cards"...which I think is such a simplistic, emotionally-charged argument. Of course no one wants their cards to be damaged, but life is full of little risks. Double-sleeving protects against one particular kind of risk - namely water damage (dirt although I think playmats generally do a good job against that and it's also usually not enough of a problem to actually damage the cards unless you're playing unsleeved imo) but there's no real way to protect against accidental bending, or against simply losing the card, shy of not playing it. It's easy to say "you don't want your cards to get damaged, do you?" but it's not really that simple - you have to weigh the risk of damage against the costs of protection - whether that's paying for double-sleeves and the hassle of shuffling them, or the cost of locks and GPS trackers and whatever else people try to use to deter theft. Risk is inevitable, and I think people tend to look for easy answers rather than really considering how worried they really ought to be.

But maybe I'm insane, and I'm risking way too much by playing single-sleeved and being less-than-vigilant about protecting myself from theft. I've rambled long enough, what does everyone else think?
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gilrad
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Post by gilrad » 4 years ago

Sinis put it pretty well; it's less about protecting against specific worst-case scenarios (which is a pretty bad habit to get into in my experience anyway), and more about recognizing you're carrying liquid wealth and treating it like that. I don't carry more than $200 in my wallet at any time, my train pass never holds more than $100, the things in my bag are all replaceable, and if I had a car, it'd probably contain mostly garbage.

I can't really think of any other hobbies that demand participants to carry so much value around. Car hobbyists obviously get pretty rockin' insurance, PC builders generally don't cart their kits around (though maybe LAN events might be an exception).

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

I've never really tallied up my collection's worth. It's probably not insignificant, and probably deserves to be considered in terms of contents insurance in the next little while, but I couldn't be sure of an exact amount. Maybe between my wife and I it'd be like $4-5k NZD.

I don't double sleeve, either. Partly because I'm a tightwad, partly because most of my cards don't really need it. That being said, it's worth thinking about for flip-cards and such too. I don't think it's the end of the world though, so long as they're usable I'm not fussed what condition they stay in - as I say it's not like I have a playset of Undergound Sea's or anything that really needs to be handled with kid gloves.

In terms of theft, I generally only carry my cards out of the house once in a blue moon anyway, and when I do it's 2-3 decks absolute max. So even if they were pinched I'd not be missing my entire collection. I think it's important to be aware of your surroundings when out and about, and keep your cards close to your chest, as it were. Don't take with you more than you can look after, and don't leave them about. Usually, once they're gone they're gone. My LGS is.....well, being honest it's pretty messy - the owner is a great guy, but he just doesn't have the time to keep his store perfectly clean, and there's bulk cards all over the place. He doesn't care overly, neither do most of his clientele, he provides a fantastic service, but it is a risk factor for cards to just vanish into the ether. It's also busy enough for me to not know every face that enters the store, so I just try to keep my collection in eyesight.

In terms of home invasion type theft, I'm fairly sure most of the people who feasibly would break in to my house wouldn't know enough about the hobby to grab my cards - they mostly go for electronics and jewellery, things they can carry out easily. Nonetheless I still think it's worth getting some sort of insurance for them at some point.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Cards - especially foils - will become cloudy and scratched over time just from being exposed to the air in single sleeves in my experience. Dust and humidity get down in there and soak into the cards. Double sleeving is very nice also for moving cards from sleeves to binders and boxes which I do a lot - I typically double sleeve every card I have over a few dollars just to reduce handling damage and make it easier to slot them into decks.

Being scratched from handling is the #1 way I've seen cards get hurt - going in and out of sleeves. And double sleeving really seems to reduce that too (at least for me).

I estimate I have spent probably around 100-150 dollars on double sleeves but I also suspect that has paid for itself in maintaining cards at NM that might be SP otherwise (especially since I have an all foil deck).

I will note I also have insurance on my collection - my collection is valued around $30,000 cash and I keep insurance for that amount (though the "mid" value is closer to 40-45, I don't feel any real urge to try to recoup all that). I tend to carry around close to 15k of that in just decks on a regular basis (ephara + gitrog is close to 10,000 on their own).

By my estimation for the rest of my life I will likely spend $9,000 on insurance costs for the collection if I never liquidate and it never get stolen, but the likelihood of my things being stolen or lost at some point given how much I travel around with decks and the number of people who know I have a high dollar collection and so on -- it feels like the odds are greater than 1 in 3 that I will have a significant loss at some point to me, either by fire, theft, or similar. I am fairly risk averse, but I realize that I would never want to try replacing my collection out of pocket if I lost it, so I'm also insuring my ability to enjoy the hobby to an extent.

I'm not sure I've done all the calculus right there, but I feel like it's pretty reasonable.

(Sorry if anyone feels getting into the detailed weeds of money is gauche or something; I kinda think about talking about money generically as a good thing for everyone. Most of the conditioning we have to not talk about money is class warfare imho :P So I am maybe unreasonably free with talking about finances, but in the end I think it'd be better for everyone /philosophyrant ;))

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

Funny story. I bought an engagement ring in cash this year. It felt scary walking to my car/from my car with the cash, and felt scary carrying around the ring.
And yet I don't even think about the value of my collection when I walk around with a backpack full of 10 commander decks.

It is definitely scary.... but I am diligent. I don't leave my bag unattended. I don't leave my decks unattended. I only lend decks to people I trust.

What also scares me is the potential for someone breaking into my place.

A magic collection is like keeping thousands of dollars in cash under your mattress. Good luck claiming your collection with your home insurance.


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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
4 years ago
Good luck claiming your collection with your home insurance.
Surely there's allowances for hobbies of this sort? You'd probably have to get the collection professionally valued or whatever, but....surely?
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Almost all home insurance has very strict limitations on collectibles. Usually like 750 or 1500 or less. And does not cover travel. My old place had 250 lol.

You need a specific policy or a very good homeowners insurance.

I have collectinsure. Only thing out there that covers the amount of travel most magic players do.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

Yikes. Hardly seems worth it tbh.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cards - especially foils - will become cloudy and scratched over time just from being exposed to the air in single sleeves in my experience. Dust and humidity get down in there and soak into the cards. Double sleeving is very nice also for moving cards from sleeves to binders and boxes which I do a lot - I typically double sleeve every card I have over a few dollars just to reduce handling damage and make it easier to slot them into decks.

Being scratched from handling is the #1 way I've seen cards get hurt - going in and out of sleeves. And double sleeving really seems to reduce that too (at least for me).

I estimate I have spent probably around 100-150 dollars on double sleeves but I also suspect that has paid for itself in maintaining cards at NM that might be SP otherwise (especially since I have an all foil deck).

I will note I also have insurance on my collection - my collection is valued around $30,000 cash and I keep insurance for that amount (though the "mid" value is closer to 40-45, I don't feel any real urge to try to recoup all that). I tend to carry around close to 15k of that in just decks on a regular basis (ephara + gitrog is close to 10,000 on their own).

By my estimation for the rest of my life I will likely spend $9,000 on insurance costs for the collection if I never liquidate and it never get stolen, but the likelihood of my things being stolen or lost at some point given how much I travel around with decks and the number of people who know I have a high dollar collection and so on -- it feels like the odds are greater than 1 in 3 that I will have a significant loss at some point to me, either by fire, theft, or similar. I am fairly risk averse, but I realize that I would never want to try replacing my collection out of pocket if I lost it, so I'm also insuring my ability to enjoy the hobby to an extent.
Maybe it's more of a foil thing. I only have a couple of foils, and usually only because either the foil is significantly cheaper, or because it's a low-value card that I opened in foil and didn't bother replacing with non-foil.

I also generally don't move things in and out of sleeves except if the sleeve is very worn (which isn't terribly often since I'm using dragonshields) or if it's a transform card, most of which aren't particularly valuable. I wish I could double sleeve just a few cards - my duals and other expensive cards, and maybe transform cards - but then they have a different feel from single-sleeved cards so it's a bit cheaty.

Most of my duals I got in LP or worse condition, so a tiny amount of additional wear seems pretty unimportant. My tabernacle is arguably NM but I almost never play it, same with most of my really valuable stuff since most of it is fairly niche (aforementioned timetwister, workshop, abyss, moat, void, etc), and a lot of it was in less-than-amazing condition when I got it.

The only cards I do double sleeve are my Phelddagrif and Kaervek commanders, since they're altered, which at least seems like it'd make them easier to damage, and as commanders they're unlikely to end up in a zone where feeling different would matter.

I guess I can see double sleeving making more sense for someone who wants to have all perfect condition foils etc. But I like my collection to be as utilitarian as possible. I bought the cards because I want to play them, not show them off. Except the alters, those I totally want to show off.

As far as insurance, I would point to the fact that the insurance company hasn't gone under as evidence that you're probably wrong about the risks you're incurring. Maybe you're taking greater risks with your cards than the insurance company expects, but insurance wouldn't exist if the average person wasn't losing money on their plan.

Also TBH if I lost my collection somehow, I don't think I'd want to go through the hassle of re-acquiring all 8000 cards even if I had a big check to do it with. I got most of them piecemeal as I saw a good offer on ebay or whatever. Doing that all over from scratch...naw. And honestly, although it's cool to have those valuable cards, objectively it's been a pretty big waste of money in terms of how much I use them. Even just buying bulk from TCGplayer is a huge hassle at that kind of volume, their site can barely handle a few hundred at a time, and I'm living outside of TCGplayer's range right now. I'd probably just rebuild a few of my favourite decks, borrow decks more often when I want some variety, and focus more on limited in the future.
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Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I don't think insurance companies realize how easy stealing a bag of magic cards can be in transit. It's probable they are not losing money hand over fist because of it, but I do think collectible insurance specifically for magic cards is closer to even money than an underwriter would like, when looked at closely. The theft rates in my various circles have been pretty high.

Even I'd my estimates of risk are off (I've personally had a close call where someone busted into my car while I was eating 30 feet away, so that colors my perception, and we've had two burglaries over the years) -- I think the edge I'm giving up is fairly small, on the order of a couple percent at most.

I don't think I would consider insurance on smaller amounts. If the market on magic cards crashed and my collection quartered I would cancel it, and buy a bunch of duals I'm missing w the savings gladly :)

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Post by Dresden » 4 years ago

You can insure cards with companies that cover cards in transit, i.e. cards you bring with you to an event. Peace of mind is worth it!

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 years ago

I'm American, so I just carry a fully loaded automatic weapon and brandish it any time someone eyeballs my messenger bag, like God intended.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 years ago

GloriousGoose wrote:
4 years ago
I'm American, so I just carry a fully loaded automatic weapon and brandish it any time someone eyeballs my messenger bag, like God intended.
God bless America, and specifically Texas, where this aforementioned loss-prevention strategy is not only encouraged but expected.

'Tis a shame all you Zealanders tossed your machine guns into the sea, but I suppose I get it. March was a rough month and as an American, I wouldn't wish our prominent issues with this mass shooting %$#% on anybody else.
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Cards - especially foils - will become cloudy and scratched over time just from being exposed to the air in single sleeves in my experience. Dust and humidity get down in there and soak into the cards. Double sleeving is very nice also for moving cards from sleeves to binders and boxes which I do a lot - I typically double sleeve every card I have over a few dollars just to reduce handling damage and make it easier to slot them into decks.

Being scratched from handling is the #1 way I've seen cards get hurt - going in and out of sleeves. And double sleeving really seems to reduce that too (at least for me).

I estimate I have spent probably around 100-150 dollars on double sleeves but I also suspect that has paid for itself in maintaining cards at NM that might be SP otherwise (especially since I have an all foil deck).
the dirt, dust, and grime that goes in have ruined some of my cards years ago when they were not double sleeved. Learned my lesson the hard way, so these days, all cards that are in decks are double sleeved, no exception.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 4 years ago

My best friend and I had cards stolen. He had some commander decks including his main deck, a foiled out Prossh deck with duals, expedition shocks and fetches, a Gaea's Cradle (non-foil), and a host of other expensive cards. Also he was borrowing my entire MODERN card pool outside of a few EDH staples as I had sets of the vast majority of the modern staples (at the time) from playing Extended for a few years. His cargo door of his CRV was smashed and the magic bag was stolen. He recouped maybe $200 when one of the thieves showed up to the local shop looking to sell of a very small piece of the collection and the shop owner called the police.That was the only recompense we received, we didn't get any other cards back. My estimated value was about $2500, and his was over that. Total our estimated loss was about $6,000+. Car break-in is a difficult event to prepare for, not like it was unlocked.

This was some 4-5 years ago now. I didn't at the time ask if a car insurance claim would have gotten us any money back. In hindsight I may have pressed harder. I assume not since he would have wanted his money too. I miss the Zendy fetches the most because those were the only cards I would actually play. I will not play Modern just from the sting of having the entire formats worth of staples taken away.

I don't loan cards any more. At least not large portions of cards, maybe one or two. And I stay in contact with my magic bag at all times. I have a commander cube with 10 duals and other good stuff. I am VERY selective on who I let draft it with me since it is hard to keep track of 600 cards and only one of them has to go missing to hit my bottom line BIG.

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

If I know I will leave my bag in my car at some point, I make sure to only bring the bare minimum and to hide my bag in the trunk.

I try to never leave it unattended.


But the home collection is what worries me, and as mentioned above, there are few options. I will be moving in the next 6 months (hopefully) and will spend time discussing with various insurance brokers what I can do to protect my collection.

Lol, maybe I should get a big safe.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
4 years ago
So are we all crazy?
Some of us, for some measure, yes. But, maybe also crazy like a fox.

I've spent thousands on my cards, and this was before the price spikes. I don't have power (except an unlimited Timetwister). Many of my cards came in played condition, because I didn't much care at the time and discounts seemed irrationally deep for them (and, I thought it added to authenticity when I didn't know much about counterfeits; genuine wear is easy to spot). It turns out that market is mostly collectors, and so played-condition money cards often languish in some dealer's inventory, too expensive to be played by a casual, but too damaged to be in a proud someone's collection. IME.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I could have bought a lifetime supply of board games for that money. Probably for all my friends, too. I remember when the Battlestar Galactica boardgame came out in 2008, we bought a copy and played it to death. At least weekly, sometimes more frequently, for years. The buy-in? Probably like $50 Canadian.
But, maybe also crazy like a fox.
If I ever liquidated my collection, I would get more than I paid. There's lots of chaff I bought over the years, bulk rares for EDH, that kind of thing. Since I started in 2008, before Modern was a thing, many of the in-between cards that had rotated out of Standard but were not even close to good enough for Legacy were a bargain. I have no idea what my collection is worth, but, between a singleton set of Revised Duals, a very nice unlimited Timetwister, a played The Abyss/Library of Alexandria/Time Vault, many copies of Force of Will etc, random reserved list cards that are worth 200-500... I could easily ball-park it above 15-20k.

And I'm not even the one with the most extensive collection I know.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
the dirt, dust, and grime that goes in have ruined some of my cards years ago when they were not double sleeved. Learned my lesson the hard way, so these days, all cards that are in decks are double sleeved, no exception.
I trade cards regularly and it's sadly often that I have to downgrade or even pass on people's foils because everyone at my shop single sleeves pretty much. I have yet to see a NM foil. Unsleeved in binders is nearly as bad if you're taking them around places and letting people paw through them and take them in and out on occasion.

Other people's foils are always scratched, cloudy, often dinged.

Normal cards are not so bad but they often have edge and surface wear. Sometimes you see stippling if the climate is moist enough (where the ink is messed up a little), but usually it's scratches.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

[mention]pokken[/mention]

oh, I see your situation now. Trusted friends are of course, free to look at my binders.. but they don't take out the cards to "paw" them, they just look without taking them out of the binder. Now, I have some core set 8th edition cards that currently in active deck use.. for example an 8th edition Worship and wrath of god in uw control - they are white bordered and easily blemished by anything - always double sleeved for that reason alone. My cards that got ruined years ago while single sleeved are mostly core set cards that are white bordered used in decks, the deterioration is very clear to the naked eye. The only ones that did not get deteriorated are those that are stored in the binders. These days, I've made it a point to only use decks where all cards are safely double sleeved, even the cheap basic lands.

hmm, about sleeving even in binders. Did that when I still had some original duals.. Taiga, plateau, and savannah were always in perfect fits no matter what.. but I've sold them all already. Currently feel safe enough to not use perfect fits in binders, since my binders are rarely opened anyway.
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
4 years ago
Lol, maybe I should get a big safe.
Honestly, I was thinking a small safe would do; I've been considering getting one. I would not be surprised if most collections worth protecting followed some Pareto principle, where 20% of the cards have 80% of the monetary value. Maybe even more than 80%; for me, the Timetwister alone is worth more than the vast majority of the other stuff. A smaller safe could easily house the top 20% of my collection.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 years ago
GloriousGoose wrote:
4 years ago
I'm American, so I just carry a fully loaded automatic weapon and brandish it any time someone eyeballs my messenger bag, like God intended.
God bless America, and specifically Texas, where this aforementioned loss-prevention strategy is not only encouraged but expected.

'Tis a shame all you Zealanders tossed your machine guns into the sea, but I suppose I get it. March was a rough month and as an American, I wouldn't wish our prominent issues with this mass shooting %$#% on anybody else.
Jury's our on whether it was a good idea or not, but I can see why that was where they went with it. There were probably other ways to manage the situation with a little more moderation though. What's done is done though, there's no going back really.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
My cards that got ruined years ago while single sleeved are mostly core set cards that are white bordered used in decks, the deterioration is very clear to the naked eye. The only ones that did not get deteriorated are those that are stored in the binders. These days, I've made it a point to only use decks where all cards are safely double sleeved, even the cheap basic lands.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Normal cards are not so bad but they often have edge and surface wear. Sometimes you see stippling if the climate is moist enough (where the ink is messed up a little), but usually it's scratches.
The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
the dirt, dust, and grime that goes in have ruined some of my cards years ago when they were not double sleeved. Learned my lesson the hard way, so these days, all cards that are in decks are double sleeved, no exception.
These sorts of comments make me wonder if I'm taking crazy pills or something. I have never noticed any of my cards drop in condition from wear in a sleeve. But just out of curiosity I dug through the my collection trying to find wear. Looked a few and couldn't see anything, so I tried to find cards that I've used extensively, but I got in good condition since I don't remember the exact condition my older cards started in. Finally settled on the card that's probably been in the most decks, and was most assuredly mint when I got it - my commander 2013 sol ring. Replaced my old revised one right when they came out, straight from precon to sleeve. Because of how frequently I switch decks, most cards only see infrequent play, but sol ring has been in almost every deck I've played since 2013.

It definitely had some hand gunk on it, although it was only really detectable when I used it to reflect the light. Couldn't see any scratching. Couldn't see any stippling. A minute with a slightly-damp wad of toilet paper was able to clear off the hand gunk pretty effectively. Card looks maybe a hair off mint to me. And that's 6 years of fairly heavy use single-sleeved. And mostly played in Seattle which, for the record, is pretty moist, climate-wise.

So I'm baffled. Do you play 50 games a day? Do you play at the bottom of a lake? Do you play in a sewer? Do you play in a free-range animal shelter? Maybe you have your cards shuffled by a 5-year-old with poor hand-eye coordination playing in a sandbox? Do you grade cards with electron microscopes? The disconnect between the horror show people claim that single-sleeving is, versus the wear I'm actually looking at, is absolutely baffling.
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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

I'll second that. I think it depends how much you care, but at the same time without getting out a monocle for optimal grading of quality most of my sleeved cards have kept just fine.

The other side of it for me though is that so long as I can play them I generally don't care. I don't believe I have even a single card that hits over $100 NZD, so I couldn't care less for most of what I own. It's a hobby, not an investment. There's some value there, but I'm not going to play with tweezers or surgical gloves just to minimise card degradation, and I really cannot be bothered double sleeving my decks. I don't want to spend what cash I have on sleeves and it won't affect how much I enjoy the game, so why bother?

It's probably more of an issue for cards that are seriously high value, granted. If I had ABUR's, Cradles, Tabernacles, Powers et al I would likely look after them a lot more than I do. Until that point, I'm careful enough to keep my cards at a reasonable quality without having to double down on sleeves.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
These sorts of comments make me wonder if I'm taking crazy pills or something. I have never noticed any of my cards drop in condition from wear in a sleeve. But just out of curiosity I dug through the my collection trying to find wear. Looked a few and couldn't see anything, so I tried to find cards that I've used extensively, but I got in good condition since I don't remember the exact condition my older cards started in. Finally settled on the card that's probably been in the most decks, and was most assuredly mint when I got it - my commander 2013 sol ring. Replaced my old revised one right when they came out, straight from precon to sleeve. Because of how frequently I switch decks, most cards only see infrequent play, but sol ring has been in almost every deck I've played since 2013.

It definitely had some hand gunk on it, although it was only really detectable when I used it to reflect the light. Couldn't see any scratching. Couldn't see any stippling. A minute with a slightly-damp wad of toilet paper was able to clear off the hand gunk pretty effectively. Card looks maybe a hair off mint to me. And that's 6 years of fairly heavy use single-sleeved. And mostly played in Seattle which, for the record, is pretty moist, climate-wise.

So I'm baffled. Do you play 50 games a day? Do you play at the bottom of a lake? Do you play in a sewer? Do you play in a free-range animal shelter? Maybe you have your cards shuffled by a 5-year-old with poor hand-eye coordination playing in a sandbox? Do you grade cards with electron microscopes? The disconnect between the horror show people claim that single-sleeving is, versus the wear I'm actually looking at, is absolutely baffling.
Foils are where it's the most obvious to me. It depends a *lot* on your climate.

In Phoenix where I used to live there was so much just, ambient dust everywhere that it was impossible not to have dust in your sleeves. In Erie where I live now it's just pretty wet for a lot of the year and nowhere near as dusty, but I have no idea whether the problem is as bad here. Most of the year my climate is a lot like Seattle, so maybe it's better here :)

It's definitely the exception that you see much damage to a non-foil; usually it's other people's cards, like people who play without playmats on store tables especially.

For me the major things are:
1) in and out of sleeves between decks - which I do a lot personally, I sleeve and desleeve almost every deck at least once a year, and go through a lot of cards in and out as well
2) foils being responsive to dust and such.

You might be less clumsy than me too, but I've had a lot of nicks and such on random unsleeved cards from handling.

I sleeve/desleeve decks because the sleeves get into yicky condition after a while, primarily. Corners ding, etc.

I think everyone's personal experience is different; I would bet that I handle cards a lot more than your average magic player. Like I'll go through my entire 5-holiday box full pile of commander playables every couple months at least, sometimes more often, looking for random things.

One thing I will say is I shuffle more than almost everyone I meet; my decks are high on shuffle effects, and I tend to shuffle more times than most people who do not seem to be all that concerned with randomizing their decks. The average person I play with will fetch, shuffle 3 times and present. I'm more like 7, and I search/fetch a lot more often.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
My cards that got ruined years ago while single sleeved are mostly core set cards that are white bordered used in decks, the deterioration is very clear to the naked eye. The only ones that did not get deteriorated are those that are stored in the binders. These days, I've made it a point to only use decks where all cards are safely double sleeved, even the cheap basic lands.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Normal cards are not so bad but they often have edge and surface wear. Sometimes you see stippling if the climate is moist enough (where the ink is messed up a little), but usually it's scratches.
The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
the dirt, dust, and grime that goes in have ruined some of my cards years ago when they were not double sleeved. Learned my lesson the hard way, so these days, all cards that are in decks are double sleeved, no exception.
These sorts of comments make me wonder if I'm taking crazy pills or something. I have never noticed any of my cards drop in condition from wear in a sleeve. But just out of curiosity I dug through the my collection trying to find wear. Looked a few and couldn't see anything, so I tried to find cards that I've used extensively, but I got in good condition since I don't remember the exact condition my older cards started in. Finally settled on the card that's probably been in the most decks, and was most assuredly mint when I got it - my commander 2013 sol ring. Replaced my old revised one right when they came out, straight from precon to sleeve. Because of how frequently I switch decks, most cards only see infrequent play, but sol ring has been in almost every deck I've played since 2013.

It definitely had some hand gunk on it, although it was only really detectable when I used it to reflect the light. Couldn't see any scratching. Couldn't see any stippling. A minute with a slightly-damp wad of toilet paper was able to clear off the hand gunk pretty effectively. Card looks maybe a hair off mint to me. And that's 6 years of fairly heavy use single-sleeved. And mostly played in Seattle which, for the record, is pretty moist, climate-wise.

So I'm baffled. Do you play 50 games a day? Do you play at the bottom of a lake? Do you play in a sewer? Do you play in a free-range animal shelter? Maybe you have your cards shuffled by a 5-year-old with poor hand-eye coordination playing in a sandbox? Do you grade cards with electron microscopes? The disconnect between the horror show people claim that single-sleeving is, versus the wear I'm actually looking at, is absolutely baffling.
We played in a normal house, no need for the sarcasm. We played around 4 years single sleeved, and all white bordered card were ruined. If you won't believe then there's no one forcing you to believe that single sleeving deteriorates cards eventually.

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