Dynamics of Brawl vs EDH (If not limited by rotation)

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 837
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

Assuming Brawl has no rotation i.e. it can use all cards like EDH except a ban list, how would it feel compare to EDH?

Brawl is:

- 60 cards.
- Can use PW as leader.
- Starting life 30, and 25 in 1v1.
- Standard legal (omitted in this discussion)

I asked because I played a precon Alela against my friend's illegal Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Brawl deck. For a small tribal like Rebel it appeared to be far more consistent with 60 cards than 100 cards, not to mention a quicker game at 25/30 life, allowing creature/combat base decks to be threatening even in multiple players.

On the other hand, 60 cards means 40 less cards than EDH, even if 10~15 of them being lands, that's 25~30 less options. Some people argued that tutors are required because of such a big deck, and certain game ending big spells (like Craterhoof) are no fun to play against, perhaps the consistency, quicker pace, and smaller life count in Brawl might rectify that.

What do people think?

Tags:

User avatar
Sinis
Posts: 2034
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Toronto, Canada

Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
4 years ago
What do people think?
This is a complicated question where most opinions are going to stray pretty wildly from a hypothetical data set.

Smaller numbers of cards will always be more consistent than larger numbers of cards. Lower life totals favour aggro.

Honestly, brawl sounds fun, but my group is pretty stuck on Commander. Rotation-less Brawl sounds more fun, but it'd be a hard sell on my group, and we all just kind of automatically brew for Commander.
Cyberium wrote:
4 years ago
and certain game ending big spells (like Craterhoof) are no fun to play against, perhaps the consistency, quicker pace, and smaller life count in Brawl might rectify that.
My playgroup has self-regulated those out of existence. No one plays Craterhoof (or dead-eye navigator, Expropriate, Blightsteel, etc....) in my group. We didn't play Iona before she was banned. We're inching towards tossing Cyclonic Rift in the same heap. It's not that we maintain a banlist or anything; I recruited a group of people who are like-minded, get along, and want to play the same kinds of games with the same kinds of endings. None of us liked those cards, and we don't play them as a result.

User avatar
RxPhantom
Fully Vaxxed, Baby!
Posts: 1513
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Southern Maryland

Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

I like the variance that 100-card decks bring, which would be considerably reduced at 60 cards. Plus, I like long games. I like there to be a back and forth, ups and downs, wheeling and dealing, big plays etc. I like wins to be exhaustively earned, after a long fight with the rest of the table.

Side note, planeswalkers as commanders is a lame idea to me. It puts a damper on game play, especially if multiple players are doing it.
Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 2/18/22 (Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty)

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1812
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

The main thing I liked about Brawl was being able to play planeswalkers (any) as your commander.

I think if you took it to it's limit with competitive play, most games are not lasting more than 4 turns, as there is just such explosive starts with the chances of drawing fast accelerants and combo pieces. Two card combos (instant wins) become a lot easier to assemble.

With black having access to tutor effects in normal Commander, these cards are very powerful, so having a 60 card deck means that some of the non-black decks have more of chance of getting key pieces without the need for (as many) tutors that you might see in competitive games.

What does a more casual approach to such an idea look like? I'm not sure, with such a small number of spells in the deck, the scope for more random effects become a lot less, so it's just going to be really hard not to have busted synergies even when taking a more casual approach.

I will say that with 60 card decks in a multiplayer format, running through all the cards in your deck would happen a lot. Like I found that when I was playing some Brawl (with the Standard card pool) I was consistently getting through the cards in the deck, whether that is through draw, filtering, mill or other effects.
So if there are a few control players, interestingly 60 cards decks can be too efficient at getting through cards and running out of win-conditions, as long as your opponents stop your combos.
So often I was always trying to think about "what ways do I still have to win?" as threats were dealt with, and often I was left a bit thin with ways to finish off opponents in a 4 player setting, with only 60 card decks.

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

Hard to say anything specific, so breaking down the changes individually....

60 cards is going to naturally lean towards more consistency in decks - it is easier to build around specific cards that aren't your commander (ex: Panharmonicon). Tutors become slightly less important. Simultaneously, because there aren't as many deck slots total, it's harder to fit in extensive tutor packages for toolbox strategies - it's still possible, but you'll probably need to run more general answers instead of more niche ones. Green ramp becomes a bit weaker because it is harder to fit in as many basics. Mill is more viable. Decks would probably also be somewhat more homogenized due to the smaller deck size. Shuffling is faster.

Planeswalkers as commanders will likely slow the format down. Most walkers are slowish value engines, so people playing planeswalkers will be incentivized to slow the game down - either by running more board wipes, or cards like Stasis or Humility. More answers to planeswalkers will be played, such as Pithing Needle. Haste creatures are improved somewhat, as are evasive creatures... although aggro likely isn't helped overall, since Planeswalkers also provide a substantial buffer to life totals.

Starting life change speeds up the format - aggro is more viable, and it becomes more difficult to survive until you can cast 8+ mana spells. Decks are generally forced to be leaner and more efficient. Black life-as-cost cards become weaker.

Overall, I think it would be a less appealing format than EDH (to me, at least). Some major draws to EDH are the high variance, the big, splashy plays, and the ability to play all sorts of niche, obscure cards, and switching to Brawl reduces those factors.

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1812
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Mookie wrote:
4 years ago
Planeswalkers as commanders will likely slow the format down. Most walkers are slowish value engines, so people playing planeswalkers will be incentivized to slow the game down - either by running more board wipes, or cards like Stasis or Humility. More answers to planeswalkers will be played, such as Pithing Needle. Haste creatures are improved somewhat, as are evasive creatures... although aggro likely isn't helped overall, since Planeswalkers also provide a substantial buffer to life totals.
I will say that as a sort of self proclaimed planeswalker deckbuilder enthusiast that it cannot be underplayed how many games it's impossible to stick your planeswalkers for continuous value.
When I was playing Brawl with planeswalker commanders, I'd say around half of the games I just couldn't get any traction with them. So I do feel like there is a general underplayed potential penalty for playing them as your general, which balances out anything else with them.

You're right you might get a lot more control decks just simply because people will initially want to try out planeswalkers for the new angle, but then again 30 life gives way to more archenemy aggro potential, which can snuff out the control player more easily.

But overall the games are going to be quicker even with control decks (than EDH), just because the power level is more consistent with smaller deck sizes.

User avatar
Gashnaw
Posts: 318
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Gashnaw » 4 years ago

Brawl had potentail but the rotation clause sort of removed it from people's minds.

Without the rotation clause I feel brawl would have some staying power, but look at the pre cons they made... They will rotate out. At least in commander pre cons, they do not rotate.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4538
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I don't think brawl had any reason to exist if they DIDN'T make rotation a part of the format. The point of rotation is not to appeal to the existing commander players, but to appeal to new players who want a format that doesn't have such an insanely deep card pool as commander. It's like how new players don't start off playing modern or legacy, they start off playing standard or limited because those formats don't require so much knowledge of magic's history. Without rotation, it's just another commander-like format for enfranchised players that will most likely die when people solve it and get bored, like tiny leaders and oathbreaker.

Anyway, as others have said I think PWs as commanders in multiplayer are mostly pretty bad tbh, too hard to keep them up and most of them don't have really strong synergies to be built around. In part because they don't have triggered abilities, which are most of the really powerful stuff in 75% commander.

Lower life totals, as I've said before, i think would be positive to the format and help aggro compete, while making it harder to assemble a combo before dying and make some of the format's more broken cards - necro, etc - less broken.

Deck size I think is best left alone. In brawl, 60 cards is 100% necessary, because otherwise you really start stretching for playables that make sense in your deck, especially after rotation. You're already usually forced to run a bunch of goodstuff to fill out some of your slots. In commander is just improves consistency and reduces variety, which isn't a positive thing imo.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
Sinis
Posts: 2034
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Toronto, Canada

Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
I will say that as a sort of self proclaimed planeswalker deckbuilder enthusiast that it cannot be underplayed how many games it's impossible to stick your planeswalkers for continuous value.
Omg this. Superfriends decks are so hard to leverage, and they often feel like combo decks with Doubling Season + 1 of about 15-20 other pieces.
Last edited by Sinis 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

I have a LOT of issues with brawl myself. If I had designed it myself there are a number of things I would have done differently:

1) I would have designed the format as a 1v1 best of 3 format. In a nutshell, I would have made it look a little more like standard than commander on this front. I am actually excited to play their abomination brawl variant on MTGArena (which still isn't out yet to my knowledge) because it is essentially what I have been asking brawl to be since day one.
2) I question if planeswalkers as commanders is an improvement or not. I hate planeswalkers and wish they were never created as a card but beyond that, I question how toxic they might make games feel. With the design difference of 1v1 vs 4 player FFA I wonder how much of this changes. I worry for the arena 1v1 variant on this front because a few current walkers (Oko and Teferi) seem incredibly obnoxious to play against in a heads up match but might not be a problem in a 4 player game. This is my thoughts before having played against them though. Oko looks INCREDIBLY difficult to play against in 1v1 brawl with any non walker commander.

I am excited to try out brawl on arena, but also slightly fearful that it might feel really %$#% with a few potential commanders in the pool.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 837
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

Brawl being 60 cards, as many pointed out, would require less tutors, which allow colors like W/R with fewest tutors to be more consistent. The chance of cards like Depala, Pilot Exemplar and Acclaimed Contender hitting what you want also increased, though on that regard blue probably would have a good time too.

Some 1v1 EDH rules had already decreed players to be 30 life, allowing aggressive decks to compete better, which is one of the big advantage I see in Brawl being 30 life even in multiplayers. Unless WotC make more cards with effects like like Torbran, Thane of Red Fell or Saskia the Unyielding, combat will always fall behind, and W/R will always tumble compare to U/B/G in late game without more cards like Endless Atlas.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6281
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I *really* wish EDH had been 60 cards. It'd make a ton of things way easier - shuffling being the biggest one. I hate shuffling 100 card decks. Even 80 would have been nice.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4538
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I'm blessed (cursed?) with huge hands, so shuffling a commander deck is easy enough, although shuffling a 60 or 40 card deck feels much better. I can't believe people double sleeve commander, though, shuffling is completely impossible.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
I'm blessed (cursed?) with huge hands, so shuffling a commander deck is easy enough, although shuffling a 60 or 40 card deck feels much better. I can't believe people double sleeve commander, though, shuffling is completely impossible.
I actually double sleeve and don't have problems shuffling. I am not a small person though so I get how people can have issues shuffling that stack. There is also some level of just I have been doing it so long at this point that its familiar to me. Its definitely more of a task if you are unaccustomed to doing so.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4538
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I'm not a small person either 😂 I'm 6'5". I still can't deal with double sleeving.

Also tbh I have had so few accidents with my cards I just think it's unnecessary. Of cards I've damaged I think it's only from accidental bending (which is at most 1-2 over 17 years and never serious damage), never water damage. Just buying perfect fits for 8000+ cards would be quite expensive, more expensive than any damage I'm likely to prevent, Not to mention the loss of enjoyment in my hobby from dealing with an uncomfortable shuffle.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1812
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

My friends and I have looked at getting an automatic card shuffler, as it's the number one thing the makes commander a pain. But I've yet to purchase one, so can't report on whether that is a successful thing to do?
I think as long as you get a gravity fed one, the size of the sleeves shouldn't be a problem? That was the main thing we were worried about is that we have thick sleeves on the cards.

User avatar
3drinks
Kaalia's Personal Liaison
Posts: 4832
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Ruined City of Drannith, Ikoria

Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

It's not bad if you can find a group that is into it. I myself would be happy to play Torbran as a Brawlmander (or Feather, because she exists in standard tbh) but we don't have it out here in my region. The issue I find is there's a lack of depth to the actual gameplay because of the limits of what R&D allows into their Standard at any one given point in time.

"Every Commander game is a different journey." The same is not true for Brawl, (says the red deck player).

Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Commander”