Much Ado About Arcane Signet, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Fellwar Stone

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Post by Sheldon » 4 months ago

"Gentlemen, this is the mana room. You can't tap here."

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Post by Legend » 4 months ago

I can't wait for the foil judge promo.
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Post by cryogen » 4 months ago

My point is that it's low usage is because it has such a high price tag, so any attempt at arguing player behaviour or trends has to take that into account.

I agree with you that Fellwar Stone should see more play, similar to Reflecting Pool vs Command Tower. Likely people are irrationally turned off because FS can shut you off from a color.
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Post by Sinis » 4 months ago

cryogen wrote:
4 months ago
My point is that it's low usage is because it has such a high price tag, so any attempt at arguing player behaviour or trends has to take that into account.

I agree with you that Fellwar Stone should see more play, similar to Reflecting Pool vs Command Tower. Likely people are irrationally turned off because FS can shut you off from a color.
+1.

In the "Underused cards in EDH" thread, I was sorely tempted to say "The Abyss is really underplayed, clocking in at only 290 decks".

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Post by pokken » 4 months ago

cryogen wrote:
4 months ago
I think people are just predicting that it will be nearly as ubiquitous as Sol Ring and Command Tower
Not a chance. fellwar stone is at 14% and mind stone at 16%. you straight up add that together it's not even half of command tower and sol ring is even higher (76%).

There's a huge chunk of decks that do not want any 2 cmc rocks. Both mana dork and land ramp decks, and many 3+ color decks only want a couple 2 cmc rocks and would prefer they be more flexible. Talismans and Signets both have advantages.

The cost of 10 dollars is not really a barrier when you consider that hallowed fountain is in 45% of decks it can go in despite costing 10 dollars.

edit: To add
Sinis wrote:
4 months ago

But, all this means is that we should be running Fellwar Stone and Arcane Signet ahead of other two-mana rocks that lack utility (like Signets). I would argue Fellwar Stone is not a substitute because you want to run the best two-mana rocks, and Arcane Signet is either first or second in that category. The rock that should be getting chucked is probably something like Coldsteel Heart.
Eh. Fellwar stone is definitely not a substitute. But signets, talismans, and mana myrs are (as well as rampant growth variants in green). As are 2 CMC mana dorks, sapphire medallion, etc. Things that offer real advantages in different angles.

And just because a deck wants, say, 4 x 2 CMC rocks is not a certainty that it wants 5. Let's look at the 2 CMC acceleration in my Ephara deck:
The deck wants almost exactly 10 pieces of ramp that accelerate Ephara (so if you add weathered wayfarer, ancient tomb, mox diamond, mana crypt, chrome mox, sol ring, it's right about there).

The deck does not want to be cluttered up drawing rocks in later turns, so I play high ceiling ramp spells like medalion and familiar over additional rocks - despite the rocks sometimes being better early game.

Many decks are tight like this and do not want to just run say, 15 rocks -- which is what you get when you run something like 3 signets, 3 talismans, fellwar stone, and a bunch of the broken rocks too (vault crypt ring mox mox), along with some later game rocks like dynamo/lotus/worn powerstone.

*most* decks would be best off subbing out either fellwar stone or their least wanted color signet for arcane signet. But many of those decks would really be better off with sapphire medallion or mind stone, or even expedition map (if you play ancient tomb/cradle/nykthos/etc.).

And some decks mana needs are so balanced they really want signets more than a single rock that taps for one color. And some decks really want rocks that tap for colorless (e.g. displacer).

arcane signet is nowhere near on the playability spectrum with command tower. It's far closer to fellwar stone which is not an autoinclude by any stretch.

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Post by Sinis » 4 months ago

pokken wrote:
4 months ago
And just because a deck wants, say, 4 x 2 CMC rocks is not a certainty that it wants 5. Let's look at the 2 CMC acceleration in my Ephara deck:
I think the problem here is that you're only playing 4 rocks. The deck I am most sure an Arcane Signet will end up in for me is The Scarab God.

The Scarab God currently plays the following:
Dimir Signet
Fellwar Stone
Mindstone
Talisman of Dominance
Thought Vessel
Worn Powerstone

... and I want to run *more* rocks (Coldsteel Heart may or may not be in the deck right now). The deck is always mana hungry, and (almost) the more mana the better, to eternalize more dead men and scry/damage more.

It will not (and will never) be as ubiquitous as Command Tower, and you're right to say that it isn't an auto-include (that's an overstatement on my part). But it's still *really* good.

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Post by cryogen » 4 months ago

I remember way back in 2010 when Sol Ring was only played in 14% of the decks. It's weird how reprinting the %$#% out of it made it accessible enough that everyone could run them in any deck they wanted to.

Let's revisit this hypothetical when LGS' aren't rationing the brawl decks to one per customer like mine was.
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Post by Kelzam » 4 months ago

cryogen wrote:
4 months ago
I remember way back in 2010 when Sol Ring was only played in 14% of the decks. It's weird how reprinting the %$#% out of it made it accessible enough that everyone could run them in any deck they wanted to.

Let's revisit this hypothetical when LGS' aren't rationing the brawl decks to one per customer like mine was.
Right. I made this exact point in my reply on Page 1:
Had Commander had the demand that it does now back in 2011 when they printed the first Commander precons, there'd be very similar outrage and hyperbole about Sol Ring due to it not having been printed since Summer Magic sans a small handful of FTV and Judge Promos in circulation - the supply wouldn't have been there to match today's demand. But here we are years later with Sol Rings coming out of our ears because WotC know it's a staple. Given enough time and demand, we'll get more Arcane Signets in other places. We're sure to get another round of Brawl decks considering how well they've sold.
Adding that if there was another format looking to buy up all those decks for some reason for Legacy cards or to flip them, the first Commander decks would surely have had many of the supply problems we have today. But wait! That did happen! When they printed True-Name Nemesis two years later in 2013 and everyone bought up the Jeleva decks to flip them.
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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

cryogen wrote:
4 months ago
I remember way back in 2010 when Sol Ring was only played in 14% of the decks. It's weird how reprinting the %$#% out of it made it accessible enough that everyone could run them in any deck they wanted to.

Let's revisit this hypothetical when LGS' aren't rationing the brawl decks to one per customer like mine was.
Obviously low print run is part of the problem, but I don't think it would be a cheap card regardless, because at the end of the day you still only get one per deck, and there are a lot more people that want the signet than want any of the other cards in the decks (although the shock lands help). I think we'd see the prices for the commanders and most of the other new cards crater, and shocks take a significant dip, but I doubt arcane signet would ever get below 5. It'll take a printing in a commander product to do that, I suspect.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
cryogen wrote:
4 months ago
I remember way back in 2010 when Sol Ring was only played in 14% of the decks. It's weird how reprinting the %$#% out of it made it accessible enough that everyone could run them in any deck they wanted to.

Let's revisit this hypothetical when LGS' aren't rationing the brawl decks to one per customer like mine was.
Obviously low print run is part of the problem, but I don't think it would be a cheap card regardless, because at the end of the day you still only get one per deck, and there are a lot more people that want the signet than want any of the other cards in the decks (although the shock lands help). I think we'd see the prices for the commanders and most of the other new cards crater, and shocks take a significant dip, but I doubt arcane signet would ever get below 5. It'll take a printing in a commander product to do that, I suspect.
I guess it depends on how big this second print run will be in November. I think you're right about it settling at $5, with the only other variable being the amount being opened in collector's boosters, which probably won't add too much to the supply.

I was fortunate enough to pick up two of these for $20.99, so two of my non-green 3-color decks will get them, but even then, the others will be fine. Rav signets and Fellwar Stone were working great before Arcane Signet, and they'll continue working.

There have been a lot of good points in this thread about how we evaluate 2-mana rocks, and it has me reevaluating my position on Talismans, Mind Stone, and diamonds.
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Post by Legend » 4 months ago

Was there this much talk about Thought Vessel, which costs about the same as Signet despite having been printed three times?
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 months ago

Im glad I didn't have to spend money on Arcane Signet. Some guy left his cards on the table while he went to use the bathroom, so I got a full playset for free!

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Post by Morganelefay » 4 months ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 months ago
Im glad I didn't have to spend money on Arcane Signet. Some guy left his cards on the table while he went to use the bathroom, so I got a full playset for free!
Just quoting this here so the fact that you just admitted to theft is saved for posterity.
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Post by Legend » 4 months ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 months ago
Im glad I didn't have to spend money on Arcane Signet. Some guy left his cards on the table while he went to use the bathroom, so I got a full playset for free!
I want my cards back! (As soon as I'm done wiping.)
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 months ago

Morganelefay wrote:
4 months ago
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 months ago
Im glad I didn't have to spend money on Arcane Signet. Some guy left his cards on the table while he went to use the bathroom, so I got a full playset for free!
Just quoting this here so the fact that you just admitted to theft is saved for posterity.
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Post by Gashnaw » 4 months ago

How did you get an MSRP? WotC is not revealing MSRPs anymore. (Unless you work at a store)

Anyway I feel the 15 (cdn) dollar price tag is a bit steep. But no regrets when I buy my deck for 30 cdn (about 23 US) and get my 30 bucks back with just two cards and have more money in it. If I sell every card, I will make my deck back and then some.

It really is not so bad. Arcane signet is a staple for sure. I should grab a second. Either it will be a card for Mana accel or increase greatly in value.

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Post by RxPhantom » 4 months ago

Gashnaw wrote:
4 months ago
How did you get an MSRP? WotC is not revealing MSRPs anymore. (Unless you work at a store)

Anyway I feel the 15 (cdn) dollar price tag is a bit steep. But no regrets when I buy my deck for 30 cdn (about 23 US) and get my 30 bucks back with just two cards and have more money in it. If I sell every card, I will make my deck back and then some.

It really is not so bad. Arcane signet is a staple for sure. I should grab a second. Either it will be a card for Mana accel or increase greatly in value.
That's why I put it in scare quotes. Officially, there is no MSRP, but Wizards still charges distributors a certain price, and those distributors charge stores a price. So there's a price out there. We're just not allowed to see it. So, as I explained in the OP, MSRP is basically set by Wal-Mart and Target, with the obvious exception of sets/items that aren't sold there. In those cases, it's the Wild West and people can charge whatever they want.
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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 4 months ago

cryogen wrote:
4 months ago
My point is that it's low usage is because it has such a high price tag, so any attempt at arguing player behaviour or trends has to take that into account.

I agree with you that Fellwar Stone should see more play, similar to Reflecting Pool vs Command Tower. Likely people are irrationally turned off because FS can shut you off from a color.
Reflecting Pool isn't the card you're looking for; it's just like Meteor Crater, only good. (Nothing good came from Meteor Crater. All Reflecting Pool needs is one five-color land like City of Brass or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Forbidden Orchard or Cavern of Souls or :sick: Vivids.)

The obvious comparison is Exotic Orchard, though. It's basically Fellwar Stone for lands.
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