Color Hosers

[TheGildedGoose]

To the uninitiated, I play a lot of mono-black. Not just in EDH, but historically my decks have trended in that direction. I only bring this up because a few weeks back, a mono-green deck with Nissa, Who Shakes the World out dropped Lifeforce against my Erebos deck. "Rude," was my first thought, because a) who plays color hosers in a EDH and b) my only outs were All is Dust and Oblivion Stone, and I had already cast All is Dust. Obviously, I scooped once he got to untap and effectively locked me out of the game, but the play has stuck with me all this time.

How do you feel about color hosers in EDH, ranging from the innocuous to the powerful to the deadly?

Before my encounter, I would say that cards that give a benefit from someone playing a color like Compost would be fine, but cards that read "target opponent loses the game" like Drought or Choke would be a bit far. Now? Now I'm thinking Deathgrip and Dystopia are strong enough to run even if they might be dead cards in some pods. With the card draw and tutoring potential in Erebos, I can compensate for some cards being useless.

[NZB2323]

To the uninitiated, I play a lot of mono-black. Not just in EDH, but historically my decks have trended in that direction. I only bring this up because a few weeks back, a mono-green deck with Nissa, Who Shakes the World out dropped Lifeforce against my Erebos deck. "Rude," was my first thought, because a) who plays color hosers in a EDH and b) my only outs were All is Dust and Oblivion Stone, and I had already cast All is Dust. Obviously, I scooped once he got to untap and effectively locked me out of the game, but the play has stuck with me all this time.

How do you feel about color hosers in EDH, ranging from the innocuous to the powerful to the deadly?

Before my encounter, I would say that cards that give a benefit from someone playing a color like Compost would be fine, but cards that read "target opponent loses the game" like Drought or Choke would be a bit far. Now? Now I'm thinking Deathgrip and Dystopia are strong enough to run even if they might be dead cards in some pods. With the card draw and tutoring potential in Erebos, I can compensate for some cards being useless.

I would say you're better off playing cards that can answer cards of any color, like Karn Liberated, Meteor Golem, Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger, and Ulamog, the infinite gyre. Not only do these cards answer lifeforce, they also can't be countered by lifeforce.

Iona, Shield of Emeria was banned because it was too powerful of a color hoser. I guess lifeforce can be similar, but there are ways to deal with it. Of course, this may lead to games where everyone is running both Ulamogs, which reduces deck variety.

[Skello496]

I mean honestly I'm fine with them. I think that they are annoying as all get out and that they can really hurt... but honestly you can figure out a way around it, always. Even if it's something as little as running Scour from Existence to have colorless removal of anything. If it's a random opponent, then it sucks but just move on. If it's someone in your Meta, then it's a deckbuilding challenge that you can look at, and it will lead to more creative solutions.

[TheGildedGoose]

I would say you're better off playing cards that can answer cards of any color, like Karn Liberated, Meteor Golem, Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger, and Ulamog, the infinite gyre. Not only do these cards answer lifeforce, they also can't be countered by lifeforce.

Iona, Shield of Emeria was banned because it was too powerful of a color hoser. I guess lifeforce can be similar, but there are ways to deal with it. Of course, this may lead to games where everyone is running both Ulamogs, which reduces deck variety.

Oh, make no mistake: I wouldn't be running these cards because they counter Lifeforce, I would be running these cards because of how effective they are. Lifeforce simply opened my eyes to how strong they can be.

[NZB2323]

I would say you're better off playing cards that can answer cards of any color, like Karn Liberated, Meteor Golem, Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger, and Ulamog, the infinite gyre. Not only do these cards answer lifeforce, they also can't be countered by lifeforce.

Iona, Shield of Emeria was banned because it was too powerful of a color hoser. I guess lifeforce can be similar, but there are ways to deal with it. Of course, this may lead to games where everyone is running both Ulamogs, which reduces deck variety.

Oh, make no mistake: I wouldn't be running these cards because they counter Lifeforce, I would be running these cards because of how effective they are. Lifeforce simply opened my eyes to how strong they can be.

If that's the case, then I would pair those cards with the recently unbanned Painter's Servant.

[Sinis]

I dislike that they're excessively punishing to monocolour players, who - given that mana is close to perfect with enough expensive lands - already play at a general disadvantage with very few advantages (the foremost among them being, probably, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx).

That said, I'd be okay with people playing them at my tables, especially ones that provide you an advantage (Carpet of Flowers, Insight, Seedtime, Massacre). I'm less keen on cards like Boil, or Lifeforce/Deathgrip.

I think I'm also okay with ones that are softer and for traditionally weaker colours against typically stronger colours; for example, I'm totally okay with Omen of Fire because a blue player can keep islands in hand after it resolves, it doesn't put a white player entirely out of the game unless they choose to keep their board, and red is typically worse than blue.

I'm also more okay with one-time uses (Perish, Virtue's Ruin and Pyroblast) over complete catastrophes like Boil.

[darrenhabib]

Pretty much color hosers are going to lose you lots of games if you have them in your deck. That time that you needed to draw a real card you got that Deathgrip instead. This is going to out weigh the times you just so happened to have mana enough to hold up for Deathgrip while also being proactive against other opponents. If you have enough mana to do this perhaps you're are probably in a dominant position anyway.
And that's why you don't see it more often. I feel it's less about "is it in the spirit of the game" and more about "does this make the deck better"
Most people come to the conclusion that cutting that artifact mana (an example) for a Deathgrip just makes your games less smooth over time.

Now that's not to say you can't configure a deck build to accommodate color hosers. If you have filtering in anyway, scry, draw->discard, mill top of library with information, etc. Anything that allows you to get through your cards quicker, while not caring about retaining the cards.
You can even do silly little things like play Manipulate Fate to remove your color hosers that don't suit the decks at the table.

Painter's Servant giving you reach to other decks as well.

I have thought about Dystopia before. It cover two colors and gives black more access to potentially removing enchantments. But it needs to be in a deck that is able to prevent going wide strategies.

I do play Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast in decks, so this is a direct reflection of perfect mana cost to result. Turns out blue is really really good color in Magic. Don't tell anybody it's a bit of a secret.

[vandertroll]

I completely fine with them. Using them in a game is a reward for taking the risk of putting a potentially useless card in your deck.

[Sinis]

I do play Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast in decks, so this is a direct reflection of perfect mana cost to result. Turns out blue is really really good color in Magic. Don't tell anybody it's a bit of a secret.

Yeah, I mean, if everyone in your environment plays blue, those are going to be very good cards. In my group last night, I was the only player with blue decks, and there were many games in which nobody played blue at all. Hosers are very much YMMV.

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I wanted to also add, since they're kind of tangential, that I like cards that are a little better against some colours, but still functional the rest of the time. I have a fondness for Ricochet Trap, and Order of the Sacred Torch is still a crappy body that could carry a sword, even if it isn't countering spells. Same with something like Mistcutter Hydra; it's very anti-blue, but, it could still punch non-blue players.

[TheGildedGoose]

Pretty much color hosers are going to lose you lots of games if you have them in your deck. That time that you needed to draw a real card you got that Deathgrip instead. This is going to out weigh the times you just so happened to have mana enough to hold up for Deathgrip while also being proactive against other opponents. If you have enough mana to do this perhaps you're are probably in a dominant position anyway.

I'm not sure I agree in all cases. Carpet of Flowers and REB/Pyroblast are workhorses due to the ubiquity of blue in the format such that the fact that they're occasionally dead draws is dwarfed by when they're online. Deathgrip is clearly less powerful, but green is right behind blue in terms of popularity.

And that's why you don't see it more often. I feel it's less about "is it in the spirit of the game" and more about "does this make the deck better"
Most people come to the conclusion that cutting that artifact mana (an example) for a Deathgrip just makes your games less smooth over time.

Most of the time, you don't cut mana for interaction. This is an unreasonable example.

I have thought about Dystopia before. It cover two colors and gives black more access to potentially removing enchantments. But it needs to be in a deck that is able to prevent going wide strategies.

I think my deck qualifies.

[hyalopterouslemur]

[mention]darrenhabib[/mention] Dystopia is acceptable within the color pie, since it's sacrificing any permanent (of the appropriate color) including non-forbidden targets of more traditional black removal (i.e., creatures, planeswalkers). It's the same reason Browbeat is. The flip side to this is, they'll never sac what you want them to sac; often it'll be a soldier or saproling token. The question becomes how much life can you afford to pay? Cumulative upkeep adds up, especially when something like Ant Queen or Mobilization exists.

Anyway, for me, it's a matter of "hosers which help me where I benefit" like Carpet of Flowers and Compost, "hosers where the hose part is incidental" like Massacre and a lot of creatures with landwalk or protection, and "hosers where I can make everyone help me" such as a lot of green artifact hate with Mycosynth Lattice. (Picture drawing a bunch of cards off Aura Shards and Viridian Revel.) Then there are a few which aren't really hosers but I include them as hosers because reasons. Like, I very well could have all four of us playing mono-black but it's unlikely.

[Mookie]

Going to the original question re: how do I feel about color hosers, there are two ways to take that question.

How do I feel about color hosers, in general? Mixed feelings. Lower-tier color hate, such as creatures with protection or Pyroblast, I'm generally fine with. On the other hand, I don't believe that cards like Choke, Acid Rain, or Deathgrip lead to fun gameplay.

How do I feel about specific color hosers? There are definitely some powerful ones worth running. I would consider Carpet of Flowers, Reap, or other ones that generate card/mana advantage. If you're running Blind Seer, Painter's Servant, or other color-changing effects, hate cards become significantly more powerful.

As a side note, I would say that color-based hosers are generally more impactful than basic land type-based hosers, due to the prevalence of nonbasic fixing lands.

In general, the way I think about color hate is similar to how I think about other hate cards, like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace - they're really good in some matchups, and dead in others. As a result, they're usually a meta call.

....I've been meaning to add Reap and Veil of Summer to a few decks. I should really get around to that.

[Sinis]

...and Veil of Summer to a few decks. I should really get around to that.

If my group was more blue-heavy, I would definitely play this (I also opened a foil of it at the m20 prerelease). At the very worst, it cantrips when the more popular colours are in the game.

Dystopia is acceptable within the color pie, since it's sacrificing any permanent (of the appropriate color) including non-forbidden targets of more traditional black removal (i.e., creatures, planeswalkers). It's the same reason Browbeat is. The flip side to this is, they'll never sac what you want them to sac; often it'll be a soldier or saproling token.

They don't get to have many non-critical creatures if you leverage one of black's greatest cards and its variants: Pestilence.