Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

I think I might build an Old Rutstein deck. He's not pushed, but he's not irrelevant. He's obvious but still has some wiggle room to dabble in other things. And he's the MTG canon legendary ebodiment of the classic "You wanna buy a watch?" trope. I hate to say it, but I think I dig it.
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Post by Krensh » 2 years ago

RE: the tribal discussion: I think tribal commanders are generally popular and the people reading and expanding this thread skew heavily toward "enjoys deck building almost as much if not more than playing" and simple tribal commanders are not going to appeal to that crowd as much (I am self-identifying as part of that crowd :) ).

Someone a few pages back had a good point about the current trend toward tribal commanders being too simple and straightforward, and there should be more commanders that give you a cookie for doing a thing, which favors a particular tribe or kind of tribe.

Like, just off the top of my head, instead of Torvald for werewolves, maybe someone that allows you to transform a card or multiple cards on your turn. That hits werewolves but also stuff from Kamigawa. I dunno, this is maybe not a great idea, but more stuff like that would be better. It's less restrictive for deck building.

I actually like Umbris for a few reasons. It rewards UB effects - lots of exiling cards! Mill cards and then Bojuka Bog them! - and you don't need the commander in play for your deck to do it's special thing; playing your commander is the reward for the special thing. Then, he has a tribal add on *if that's your thing.* I don't know if he's good, but I think it's an excellent design. I also appreciate that Umbris doesn't require that you have done the exiling!

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Post by kirkusjones » 2 years ago

I can definitely see the appeal in Old Rutstein. He's in my favorite color combo and does something relatively interesting. Plus, he gives off Resident Evil merchant vibes. But, I have to practice self control. Which means I'll find room for him in the 99 of an existing deck.

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Post by Lifeless » 2 years ago

kirkusjones wrote:
2 years ago
I can definitely see the appeal in Old Rutstein. He's in my favorite color combo and does something relatively interesting. Plus, he gives off Resident Evil merchant vibes. But, I have to practice self control. Which means I'll find room for him in the 99 of an existing deck.
I was just about to say, he's legit the merchant from newer Resident Evil games.

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Post by Serenade » 2 years ago

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2021-11-11
Lotta neat ones in this set. The treasure and copy ones are so creepy.
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Post by Lifeless » 2 years ago

Big fan of that zombie token. I'll probably go out of my way to get some to keep Grimgrin company.

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Post by onering » 2 years ago

Krensh wrote:
2 years ago
RE: the tribal discussion: I think tribal commanders are generally popular and the people reading and expanding this thread skew heavily toward "enjoys deck building almost as much if not more than playing" and simple tribal commanders are not going to appeal to that crowd as much (I am self-identifying as part of that crowd :) ).

Someone a few pages back had a good point about the current trend toward tribal commanders being too simple and straightforward, and there should be more commanders that give you a cookie for doing a thing, which favors a particular tribe or kind of tribe.

Like, just off the top of my head, instead of Torvald for werewolves, maybe someone that allows you to transform a card or multiple cards on your turn. That hits werewolves but also stuff from Kamigawa. I dunno, this is maybe not a great idea, but more stuff like that would be better. It's less restrictive for deck building.

I actually like Umbris for a few reasons. It rewards UB effects - lots of exiling cards! Mill cards and then Bojuka Bog them! - and you don't need the commander in play for your deck to do it's special thing; playing your commander is the reward for the special thing. Then, he has a tribal add on *if that's your thing.* I don't know if he's good, but I think it's an excellent design. I also appreciate that Umbris doesn't require that you have done the exiling!
I actually think that new Anje, Maid of Dishonor is actually a good example of a tribal commander that isn't overly straightforward. I mean, you can just jam in all the vampires and blood matters effects you can, but you don't need to. Her payoff being limited to once per turn lessens the impulse to maximize slamming vamps onto the field, and her activated ability is broad enough that it doesn't even need vamps to function, it just makes her better. You could do a sacrifice deck with a vamp subtheme, and blood sets up madness cards so you could do a vamp deck with a madness subtheme.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Oh good, that game constantly shoving obnoxious YouTube ads in my face now has magic cards.

But seriously, as cringe as it is, I'm certainly happier that it's just renamed cards instead of new ones.
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Post by Serenade » 2 years ago

The new holiday card (Last Minute Chopping) is terrific. Those two are so much more fun than the wannabe Avenger PWs.
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Serenade wrote:
2 years ago
The new holiday card (Last Minute Chopping) is terrific. Those two are so much more fun than the wannabe Avenger PWs.
Flavor it indeed A+. Seems like a fun flavor inclusion for a Gisa and Geralf deck. It's a punisher effect though, so you'll probably end up with a lump of coal as a present.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

Guys, Wedding Ring seems fantastic. This card is reminiscent of Psychic Possession but with some big differences.

I think this could be the new Dockside Extortionist in terms of being a limited supply format staple. Went from being around 10bucks to 40+ in about a weeks time. I was lucky enough to pick up at the lower price and have been playing with it in my artifacts only atraxa build and it has really surprised me. We will see if the price drops when supply catches up with demand (if it ever does).

At its core, this is reliable mono-white card draw which we all know comes at a premium. I can see this being slotted into basically any mono-white deck but also boros, orzhov, and maybe mardu. Obviously works best in a deck that doesn't have a lot of its own explosive draw. I should mention this is fetchable with Enlightened Tutor which i think is also a huge upside.

You get the option of "marrying" the player drawing the most cards at your table. It kind of acts as rhystic effect where that player is going to be a lot less likely to cast their Wheel of Fortune or Rishkar's Expertise when this is on the field. But incremental card draw effects are going to give you the most consistent benefit.

You can also bounce this and get multiple token copies on the field, however all players will start benefiting from this. What I would like to know is if you can copy this with Sculpting Steel would i get double the triggers?

Another way to break parity on this is to get something like Alhammarret's Archive.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

To answer you question, each copy should trigger independently, so you having 2 rings to their 1 provides double the draw.

I plan on testing Wedding Ring in Osgir, the Reconstructor, because of the asymmetry that copying it provides. I also loop my exile, so I fully intend to 'marry' every player, but have 4+ rings myself. EDIT: In hindsight, I should have clarified what was noted below; copying wedding ring from graveyard does not make copies for our opponents. My build would need to exile it, then Mirror of Fate it back in order to make copies.

Another possible way to improve the ring is Howling Mine effects. This puts you and the married player up by more cards/cycle compared to your opponents. It's also well supported by Smothering Tithe, and archive as you mentioned.

Overall, I expect it to content for one of the best sources of consistent draw in w. I think it outperforms a lot of the generic colorless draw and only faces competition for deck-dependent draw sources like Mentor of the Meek, Skullclamp, etc.
Last edited by Crazy Monkey 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
2 years ago
I plan on testing Wedding Ring in Osgir, the Reconstructor, because of the asymmetry that copying it provides. I also loop my exile, so I fully intend to 'marry' every player, but have 4+ rings myself.
I'll note that recurring Wedding Ring with Osgir won't let you give more rings to opponents - that trigger only happens if it was cast. No flickering it with Brago, King Eternal either.

I have somewhat mixed feelings about Wedding Ring, but that's probably because my white decks are mixed with other colors. I'm generally not a fan of kingmaker effects, which is what it reads as. There certainly are ways to make it asymmetric - if you're not drawing any extra cards and your partner is, then the Ring slants things heavily in your favor. However, I think it would be foolish to cut other sources of card draw to make Wedding Ring more asymmetric - that would just make your deck less consistent. As a result, I would expect decks with Wedding Ring to have a similar amount of pure card advantage compared to their opponents.

Rather, I think the strength of Wedding Ring is in its ability to exploit the specific nature of card advantage your opponents are running. It's going to be fantastic against decks that draw lots of cards on their own turn by casting creatures or through combat, such as Chulane, Teller of Tales or Edric, Spymaster of Trest. On the other hand, if your opponent is running something like Rashmi, Eternities Crafter or Prosper, Tome-Bound that doesn't generate card advantage by pure card draw, or a commander like Ephara, God of the Polis that draws cards on its opponents' turns, Wedding Ring will look much worse - effectively an overpriced Howling Mine.

....anyway, I think the card is interesting and unique, and certainly worth testing, but I'm not convinced it deserves its current price tag.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

I remember when Alms Collector came out, and I realised how little stuff it actually stops. A lot of draw in EDH comes in the form of incremental value, and it doesn't even necessarily have to be in your turn. For example, Wedding Ring will gain very little from Feather, who can just rip the cantrips in other people's turns and be good. This mainly exploits Gx grenge.dec, as mentioned by prior posters. This is honestly likely enough for it to be a fine include. I remember when a thread went up on these boards comparing various black spot removal options, and a surprising finding of the write-up was that a colour-restricted option that smacked green creatures was actually really damn good. Green is the most potent kitchen table colour, and Ring milks its tendency to draw in its own turn.

It's surprising to me how expensive white is. I remember that white bombs/staples were disproportionately expensive when I was getting into the format, the price tag for Avacyn, Angel of Hope is one that stuck in my mind in particular. This continues to this day. Whenever a decent looking white card gets printed, its price gets ballooned into the sky. Monologue Tax is still somehow five bucks, and it's not even that good. For such a purportedly reviled colour, it sure gets a lot of attention and monetary value.
 
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
2 years ago
It's surprising to me how expensive white is. I remember that white bombs/staples were disproportionately expensive when I was getting into the format, the price tag for Avacyn, Angel of Hope is one that stuck in my mind in particular. This continues to this day. Whenever a decent looking white card gets printed, its price gets ballooned into the sky. Monologue Tax is still somehow five bucks, and it's not even that good. For such a purportedly reviled colour, it sure gets a lot of attention and monetary value.
It's because white doesn't get a lot of redundancy in its staples. If you don't want to shell out for grenge, you have options. If you want a Smothering Tithe, well, better pony up. I think this is also why white decks are harder to pull off at the kitchen table than they would appear on paper: if you can't afford Smothering Tithe, Solitude or Anointed Procession it doesn't matter than WotC has been pushing the color quite well for those that can afford it.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Well, shock reprints are nice. I'm very much not a fan of un-sets and while that might be an indication that I'm the sort of person that takes things too seriously, ill still get in on this action.

Frankly I'm just pleasantly surprised that shocks are being printed again outside of Ravnica. Theres always been a presumption that they wouldn't, even though theres nothing in the flavor or names that tie them to that plane.
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Black-bordered un-cards are... very interesting. I'm glad they're making a distinction between 'silver-bordered-because-silly' and 'silver-bordered-because-it-doesn't-work'. As pointed out in the discussion article, there isn't anything unsupported in Sword of Dungeons & Dragons's text box other than the color of the created token.

We'll see if they end up seeing play - given that they're actually legal in the format, I expect so. That said, remembering which Unfinity cards are / aren't legal without checking the stamp is going to be annoying.

....anyway, Saw in Half is very amusing. It's a bit like a janky Clone / flicker effect in black - splitting something like Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Sepulchral Primordial in half seems quite strong.

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Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

Statement from the RC:

https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2021 ... rn-symbol/

Today's Unfinity announcement included the introduction of the acorn watermark as the new method to distinguish what were previously silver-bordered cards.

We will be updating the rules for card legality to make the acorn symbol equivalent to silver-borders; they're not allowed by default (but should be encouraged among playgroups!)

We considered allowing them – Commander is not a tournament format, so philosophically it aligns with Mark Rosewater's points about un-cards – but while some of the classes of cards that get an acorn symbol would be fine (art-based abilities, for example) others are not (physical dexterity cards) and further trying to split would descend to specific card lists. Those might be viable as an optional addition, but not something we would look to make default.

Set looks like a ton of fun, though. Looking forward to it! As always, you're welcome to join us on the RC Discord server to chat about it.
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Post by Guardman » 2 years ago

I'm normally not a huge fan of Un-sets, but this one looks like a lot of fun. I especially like it going black border-acorn instead of silver border. Also excited to see more dice-rolling cards. It was an aspect of AFR I enjoyed a lot more than I thought I would, so hopefully we will get enough cards to get a dice rolling deck going (especially since we already have two dice rolling legendaries in The Space Family Goblinson and Farideh, Devil's Chosen). Though it will be interesting to see if they stick to d20's or go back to d6.

Saw in Half will be great in any deck that runs a lot of EtB or token doublers. Plus it can act as removal in a pinch.

Finally, my lord are the lands nice. The basics are probably the nicest basics I've ever seen and the full art Shocklands are *chef's kiss*. Depending on what else is revealed I might actually buy a box (especially since my birthday is around there, so easy present).

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Post by Sharpened » 2 years ago

Guardman wrote:
2 years ago
I especially like it going black border-acorn instead of silver border.
This is what I hate. I'm glad they are making the cards that can work be legal. But that acorn looks pretty subtle for the "should be silver bordered" cards. Unsets are great fun. I've developed bruises on my hands from playing against Goblin S.W.A.T. Team. The Unstable prerelease was a blast. And it will be nice to be able to bust out some of the cards that actually function when I feel like it from this new set. I just hate that the differentiation between the two types of un-cards is so easy to overlook. The silver borders were a great indicator. While I'm sure there would have been logistical challenges in having half the set be silver border and half be blackborder, given the amount of borderless cards they printed, I have trouble believing that they couldn't have managed. And it would have been lightyears better than this current small holofoil shape at the bottom of cards.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Guardman wrote:
2 years ago
Saw in Half will be great in any deck that runs a lot of EtB or token doublers. Plus it can act as removal in a pinch.
Does Saw in Half go infinite with Dualcaster Mage again? :P

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Post by Wallycaine » 2 years ago

Sharpened wrote:
2 years ago
Guardman wrote:
2 years ago
I especially like it going black border-acorn instead of silver border.
This is what I hate. I'm glad they are making the cards that can work be legal. But that acorn looks pretty subtle for the "should be silver bordered" cards. Unsets are great fun. I've developed bruises on my hands from playing against Goblin S.W.A.T. Team. The Unstable prerelease was a blast. And it will be nice to be able to bust out some of the cards that actually function when I feel like it from this new set. I just hate that the differentiation between the two types of un-cards is so easy to overlook. The silver borders were a great indicator. While I'm sure there would have been logistical challenges in having half the set be silver border and half be blackborder, given the amount of borderless cards they printed, I have trouble believing that they couldn't have managed. And it would have been lightyears better than this current small holofoil shape at the bottom of cards.
The logistical challenges are pretty daunting, and would have been nigh impossible to accomplish halfway through a sets design (as is laid out here). Basically, Borderless (and similar, such as Dual Faced Cards) cards work because they are on their own, seperate sheet. Similarly, a Silver Border/Black Border Unset would require those sheets be kept seperate, which means they'd have to balance out the numbers of each in order to ensure they both have full sheets, rather than being able to assign it as appropriate to the design. Additionally, and more importantly: when they do this sort of "seperate sheet" technology, they become constrained on how they can apply it to the packs. Most commonly, they create a "slot" that ensures there's exactly X number of that type of card per pack (See DFC's in the Innistrad sets, for example, where there's 1 or 2 "DFC slots" per pack). Alternately, they can treat it similarly to a Foil, and have it replace a card X% of the time. As you can probably guess, *either* solution would have massive problems for a limited enviroment that was initially built with a random, probably uneven mix of "black bordered" and "silver bordered" cards. Locking either side to a specific number of cards per pack would put strange pressures on the limited enviroment, and limiting them to the foil treatment would be even worse. It's *possible* they could have made a set like that work, but it would have required completely redoing the basic outline of the set to balance out (in whatever proportions they deemed appropriate) the "black" and "silver" bordered sides, added tremendously to the cost of printing the set, and put those same heavy constraints on any un-set moving forward.

This method doesn't require *any* of that extra work, as they can already split stickering on a single sheet at no or low cost.

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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

Some of the cards will be eternal legal. I'm not sure if this is a good idea.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

I know as a longtime player that the long time so-called "kitchen table" player will be very confused by this method. If I wasn't keeping up with the posts from WotC or the RC stating that the difference in shape of an insert that I never look at is much less clear than the long-standing use of silver boarders. Needing to check the anti-counterfeit insert to determine card legality is just weird to me.

I understand why this was done, and I'm glad that the otherwise semi-silver-boarded cards can be played in other formats. The previous unsets had cards which could exist outside an unset, so this makes sure the set is more sustainably useful. That said, I find that the icon method it is an awkward at best.

As a big science fiction nerd, I like the orbital land arts, and most of the shockland arts. I was actually looking for some basics that have appropriate art for my werewolf modern deck, and the mountain implied-eclipse art is almost exactly what I wanted. That said, I don't really like the orbital icon on the 'planetary space' lands. Those arts are great, but the border on the mana symbol disagree with me, personally.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

I'm super confused by which cards are legal and which ones aren't. Is it literally just the little holo watermark at the middle of the bottom of the card? Because that will be super annoying for new players especially.

I mean why can't all the cards be silver bordered? Is it a simple question of revenue for WOTC? Black bordered cards are worth more?
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