Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[BeneTleilax]

Hopefully Endless Ranks of the Dead goes down a bit. It's too jank to be as expensive as it is. Butcher of Malakir, while a meme, is just really good in aristo-ish decks.

[TheGildedGoose]

Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is a stunning disappointment. Surveil is one of my favorite mechanics and a commander that enables Disinformation Campaign is right up my alley, but why on god's green %$#% Earth does this thing cost five mana? And have such a big ol' booty? Everyone knows sleuths are stronger than Hill Giants. A 3/3 for 4mv or better still, a 1/1 for 3mv would've been incredibly fun, but as is the thing is nigh unplayable. I expected nothing and am still, somehow, disappointed.

[Serenade]

Crowded Crypt as another one of those interesting 3cmc rocks. I like it!

Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth as our Sherlock Holmes! With a Dimir twist! Nice!

Empty the Laboratory feels fun with decayed zombies.

[RedCheese]

Hopefully Endless Ranks of the Dead goes down a bit. It's too jank to be as expensive as it is. Butcher of Malakir, while a meme, is just really good in aristo-ish decks.

So is Gravepact and Dictate of Erebos, yet they decided with the stupid vampire

[BeneTleilax]

So is Gravepact and Dictate of Erebos, yet they decided with the stupid vampire

Having a body is really relevant to the creature synergies in these decks, especially the casual end that's closer to these precons.

[RedCheese]

So is Gravepact and Dictate of Erebos, yet they decided with the stupid vampire

Having a body is really relevant to the creature synergies in these decks, especially the casual end that's closer to these precons.

Relevant sure, but its really expensive. Rather have not included at all and have Crypt Breaker or other relevant zombie instead of the 100th reprint of that card. Also remove Eater of Hope, what a worthless and garbage reprint.

[BeneTleilax]

Eater sucks, agreed.

[Sanity_Eclipse]

Hopefully Endless Ranks of the Dead goes down a bit. It's too jank to be as expensive as it is. Butcher of Malakir, while a meme, is just really good in aristo-ish decks.

So is Gravepact and Dictate of Erebos, yet they decided with the stupid vampire

More of my point, yeah. While yes being a dude is helpful to the strategy, Butcher has been reprinted 9 times, with 2/3 of that being in CMD precons. We're good. Not necessarily in a precon, but Pact/'Tate need to be reprinted too.

[toctheyounger]

Hopefully Endless Ranks of the Dead goes down a bit. It's too jank to be as expensive as it is. Butcher of Malakir, while a meme, is just really good in aristo-ish decks.

Hopefully, yeah, but it's still a pretty bad card. I love the art, but it's slow enough to be a waste of time.

Rooftop Storm though....hopefully that tanks. I still don't play it, I think the cost is too high, but there's no doubting the card is bonkers.

As an aside in general with the MID spoilers: there's a creation myth here in New Zealand, and the same character appears in a lot of Pacific Island creation myths, about Maui (of You're Welcome fame lately), who fashioned a hook to slow the sun so that we could enjoy longer, warmer days. Teferi, Who Slows the Sunset is now that character for me.

[RedCheese]

I love Endless Ranks of the Dead mostly for favor reasons. Have it on my Ghoulcaller Gisa deck just because flavor. because yeah its very slow but sweet

[Mookie]

Previews for the preview god! Spoilers for the spoiler throne!

Commanders:

• Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is fine. Five mana is a bit clunky, but she triggers off any of your creatures dying, which is pretty strong. I could see her enabling an aristocrats build in Dimir, or you could do artifact shenanigans. I'll also call out the ability to do shenanigans (or draw the game) with March of the Machines.
• Gorexs, the Tombshell is amusing. Slow recursion, but I'll never complain about a turtle.
• Kyler, Sigardan Emissary is Cathars' Crusade // Door of Destinies for humans, which seems strong.
• Kurbis, Harvest Celebrant can act as a phantom for your entire team. Not exciting, but fine.

Overall, not super excited by any of these commanders, but they're fine. Good for the decks they're designed for, niche elsewhere, which is generally what I expect out of a precon commander.

Cards:

• Crowded Crypt reminds me of Cursed Mirror and Midnight Clock, which are two of my favorite mana rocks from recent times. Will this expand into a full cycle? Only time will tell. Still, certainly a fun card, and more flavorful than Commander's Sphere / Coalition Relic / etc.
• Ghouls' Night Out is a B+ pun, and an A+ card. Decayed is a pretty significant downside, but recurring four creatures for five mana is an excellent rate. Teysa also appreciates that the creatures become black zombies.
• Curse of the Restless Dead looks interesting, and yet another curse that seems pretty interesting to throw on yourself. Would I run a card with 'landfall: make a zombie'? Very possibly. If there is a ramp player at the table, it looks even better.
• Curse of Unbinding is fun, but extremely expensive.
• Prowling Geistcatcher looks excellent. I've wanted to test out Promise of Tomorrow, but the timing restriction has made me a bit hesitant - it feels like a big target saying 'throw removal at me'. Geistcatcher having a LTB trigger makes it significantly safer to use (even if it does only trigger off sacrifice instead of any creature death). I'll also call out that it acts as another piece of redundancy for Angel of Glory's Rise loops - very nice to have another option in addition to Fiend Hunter.
• Drown in Dreams is a strictly-better Stroke of Genius, and adds a bit more flexibility to that card slot.
• Somberwald Beastmaster bothers me. Why does it make both 3/3 and 4/4 beasts? Why can't one of those be a different creature type?
• Heronblade Elite is a strong mana dork for human decks.
• Curse of Clinging Webs is cool, but also miserable for the decks I tend to play. At least it isn't a replacement effect.
• Celebrate the Harvest continues the theme of Harvest Season and Traverse the Outlands, providing strong ramp for the decks that it works with.
• It is usually outclassed by the latter, but at least it's a mana cheaper.
• Wall of Mourning is an interesting twist on Wall of Omens. No idea if it's good (since it doesn't work quite as well with flicker effects), but it does look fun.
• Moorland Rescuer looks amazing for Doran, the Siege Tower decks and other decks with lots of 0-power creatures. Outside that... seems like a decent value creature, albeit a bit expensive. Exiling itself is a significant downside, but the trigger is effectively a better version of Reveillark.
• Celestial Judgment is interesting - a potentially asymmetric board wipe, but there are definitely some gaping holes in what it can hit.

Lots of cool stuff, even for decks that don't directly correspond to the precons' themes.

[darrenhabib]

Empty the Laboratory could be used in decks that contain only a few Zombies for combo purposes.

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Deathbringer Thoctar

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Skinrender/Putrid Goblin + Plague Belcher + Carrion Feeder

Gravecrawler + Morophon, the Boundless + Plague Belcher/Corpse Knight/Diregraf Captain + Carrion Feeder

Sidisi, Undead Vizier can be used to get a combo piece. For example you could get Phyrexian Altar to combine with Gravecrawler + Plague Belcher.

There a lot of cards that are not Zombies that create Zombie tokens, but commanders to look at to fill the role of creating Zombies could be Varina, Lich Queen, The Scarab God, Tormod, the Desecrator, Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant.

Does anybody know of other Zombie kill combos?

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

Hah! Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth, in both card design and name, looks like she came straight from our Custom Card forum!

[folding_music]

^trying to work out what that means lol
A lot of EDH specific cards officially put out are way more fanciful than things I've seen people post, but this is just an incorrectly statted card.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

A lot of EDH specific cards officially put out are way more fanciful than things I've seen people post, but this is just an incorrectly statted card.

Exactly! She's not some weird, out-of-the box wacky card, she is in fact a perfectly reasonable expansion of themes and mechanics already present:

1-The card name unambigously informs us that this is a character from Innistrad and that she's a detective.
2-She investigates triggered off deaths, a logical extension of the mechanics and themes in Innistrad.
3-She surveils off sacrificed tokens, bringing back an old keyword, and tying in both to her first ability and to themes previously explored (surveil and tokens matter in Modern Horizons 2).

So she feels like someone's custom Commander.

I will admit the stats are less than ideal, but again it feels like an attempt to overcorrect or balance, to avoid making an unfun and overpowered or broken card, especially since it's in the colors of Opposition Agent/Hullbreacher.

[Serenade]

I'm not sure if these mechanics will return in Crimson Vow, but decayed has a great feel to it. I'd love to see an aura or instant granting it (like Undying Evil) for offensive purposes. Not sure if that breaks color pie since red hates on blocking. Maybe a commander-product-only RB card that gives everything decayed until EOT. I might be drifting too far into custom card creation.

Also makes sense from any zombie POV, so if we ever return to Amonkhet…I think we know the shape of those zombies.

[Wallycaine]

I'm not sure if these mechanics will return in Crimson Vow, but decayed has a great feel to it. I'd love to see an aura or instant granting it (like Undying Evil) for offensive purposes. Not sure if that breaks color pie since red hates on blocking. Maybe a commander-product-only RB card that gives everything decayed until EOT. I might be drifting too far into custom card creation.

Also makes sense from any zombie POV, so if we ever return to Amonkhet…I think we know the shape of those zombies.

Unfortunately, granting it (especially at instant speed) has some weird interactions due to the way the ability works. For example, you might think that if something attacks, you can grant it decayed to make them sacrifice the creature, right? But since decayed uses a triggered ability to sacrifice the creature, you'd have to grant decayed before they attack to actually cause the sacrifice, at which point the opponent can just not attack.

[RedCheese]

Decayed feels interesting, but too safe in this set. They could have gne even crazier with the horde nature of zombies and did simillar to Army of the Damned but a decayed version.

[DirkGently]

Alright I'll rate all the commanders by my likely to build them /5. 1=no, 2=very unlikely, 3=possibly, 4=coin flip, 5=most likely

Adeline, Resplendent Cathar - She's actually kind of insane? Like, holy cow Brimaz, King of Oreskos has absolutely nothing on her. All she needs is a 2-drop and she can put 6 tokens into play by turn 4. That's unreal. Not my favorite kind of strat, go-wide tokens, but if she ends up as underplayed as I expect there's a chance. 3/5
Dennick, Pious Apprentice // Dennick, Pious Apparition - The back side is kinda okay, but you're paying 6 mana for that plus get him into the grave, and it's not really an interesting ability anyway so...no. 1/5.
Florian, Voldaren Scion - I like the direction for vamps but it's probably not nearly interesting enough to build around. 2/5.
Gisa, Glorious Resurrector - pretty insane ability. Decayed seems like a pretty minor downside for most creatures tbh. If she becomes popular then I won't, but otherwise solid chance. 3/5.
Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia - i like the low cost and all but he just doesn't do much. 2/5.
Jerren, Corrupted Bishop // Ormendahl, the Corrupter - Flip side is absolutely not worth it, but it's a cute objective I guess. Front side is kinda boring. I could only imagine doing it as a dumb challenge deck to see if it's funny to try to hit 13 life. 2/5.
Katilda, Dawnhart Prime - tribal and big mana ramp? Vomit. 1/5.
Lier, Disciple of the Drowned - Bleh, take away the best part of blue and leave yourself a bunch of *vomit* time warps. I guess you could get really cute and flashback bounce spells and counterspells simultaneously, but then you gotta keep replaying her. 1/5.
Liesa, Forgotten Archangel - Kind of insane ability, similar to Athreos but minus the infinite combos and indestructibility. Definitely interesting. 3/5.
Ludevic, Necrogenius // Olag, Ludevic's Hubris - Shockingly boring for a flip UB commander, especially since they were presumably trying to make up for the last iteration sucking. Basically just an overpriced reanimation spell in the CZ. Nah. 1/5.
Old Stickfingers - I've already toyed around with some ideas for him that I like a lot, mostly by dumping bloodghasts into the grave and exploiting sac outlets. Might end up being too similar to other grave pacty decks, but I do think he's an interesting version of that. 4/5.
Rem Karolus, Stalwart Slayer - Really hard to find a good niche for this guy. I think at the end of the day, I'd rather just play Iroas, God of Victory if I really want to do a RW damage-based-board-wipe strat. This guy is too vulnerable to play aggro with, really risks getting blown out by removal. 2/5.
Saryth, the Viper's Fang - Seems real boring and mono-green is a real hard sell for me. 1/5.
Sigarda, Champion of Light - Human tribal is the boringest tribal. And tribal is the boringest archetype. 1/5.
Slogurk, the Overslime - lord please don't let him be broken. I wanna do life from the loam in the command zone things. 5/5.
Tovolar, Dire Overlord // Tovolar, the Midnight Scourge - Honestly I'd rather do Ulrich of the Krallenhorde // Ulrich, Uncontested Alpha just because it's a less boring build-around. But hopefully now people can stop whining about not having a "proper" werewolf legend. 2/5.
Vadrik, Astral Archmage - bleh he's probably gonna do some dumb things. I did kinda enjoy by Mizzix buyback deck but honestly even that jank was pretty gross. Spellslinging is cancer and mana discounts are dangerous. 2/5.

commander products:
Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth - rarely find my own creatures dying to be a fun trigger to build around tbh. I kinda like surveil synergy but there's not nearly enough of it. 2/5.
Gorexs, the Tombshell - mispellings aside, I actually kinda like him. He should always cost BB, and give value on attack and death. I'll have to think about how best to exploit him, and mono-black is tricky, but I could definitely see giving him a shot. 4/5.
Kyler, Sigardan Emissary - apparently kyler is a german name but it sounds like some made up 1990s american %$#%$#% to me tbh. Anyway he's human tribal so I don't have any need to feel conflicted about playing a commander with a name I can't respect. 1/5.
Kurbis, Harvest Celebrant - Wow that's boring. 1/5.
Leinore, Autumn Sovereign - If I wanted to play a 4-drop that draws a card I'd play Lu Xun, Scholar General and skip the hassle. 1/5.
Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver - meh, zombie tribal. tribal tribal tribal. sod off. 1/5.
Lynde, Cheerful Tormentor - I'm a tad pissed to learn that this stupid thing is only available in set/collector boosters. I guess I'll get to find out how much of a pain in the ass it is to trade for, because I'm sure not cracking packs and praying. Not that I'm likely to actually play it, her design is pretty linear and I'm also not a fan of them printing "curses" that aren't actually detrimental to the person effected just to make her ability less crap. Kinda ruins the whole spirit of the thing. Still, she's less boring than most and flavor aside I do like the risky elements for curses that are actually downsides. 2/5.

Top 3:
Slogurk, the Overslime
Gorexs, the Tombshell
Old Stickfingers

[Cyberium]

Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth - rarely find my own creatures dying to be a fun trigger to build around tbh. I kinda like surveil synergy but there's not nearly enough of it. 2/5.

There are talks about using March of the Machines to cause an infinite loop since Eloise doesn't require a nontoken creature, then win with death/EtB triggers.

[DirkGently]

I did notice people talking about that on mythicspoiler, but that's not the sort of thing I bother to bring up since I have no interest in that sort of gameplay.

[bobthefunny]

I think that Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is actually accurately costed.

As comparable effects for card draw on death, we have:

• Grim Haruspex, Midnight Reaper at 3 cost, but do not work with tokens.
• Harvester of Souls at 6 cost, still non-token, but a 5/5. (also, Innistrad)
• Dark Prophecy 3 cost, all creatures, but triple black cost.
• Moldervine Reclamation 5 cost, all creatures.
• Fecundity 3 cost, all creatures, but symmetrical. Also old design.
• Liliana, Dreadhorde General 6 cost, all creatures.
• Ulvenwald Mysteries 3 cost, non-token, Investigate.
• Reaper of the Wilds (4 cost) Any creature - Scry (trying to guage the surveil)
• Shadows of the Past 2 cost. and Warteye Witch (3 cost) Any Creature - Scry.

That's a pretty large list to compare to, with a lot of variables. I think a few things are important:

• Investigate is weaker than straight up draw, since it requires 2 additional mana. However, there are benefits to being able to delay the draw, to having permanents on the board, and to generating tokens, which means it doesn't necessarily have to be that much weaker.
• Eloise triggers to investigate off of every creature dying - including tokens. This immediately puts her higher than the 3 cost Grim Haruspex and Midnight Reaper, or the 3 cost Ulvenwald Mysteries. Judging from Moldervine Reclamation, 5 cost is not un-fair.
• Eloise also triggers to Surveil off of tokens sacrificing. Obviously intended to pair with the clue tokens, but black aristocrat variants will love having plenty of token fodder to sac. No other card has that ability, or anything that directly compares. I'm comparing to scry (2-4 mana), but Surveil is slightly stronger than Scry. However, unlike the scry comparisons, this ability is token only, and scarifice only, which lowers it back down.
• Both of Eloise's abilities trigger off of tokens dying, meaning that you get to both Surveil, and then Investigate, meaning that you get that extra information before you draw. This is pretty powerful, as seen from scry-draw blue spells.

All in all, the combination of both abilities I think puts the 5 cost as a reasonable range. Once you settle on the 5 cost, looking at Harvester of Souls suggests that a 4/4 statline seems reasonable.

4 cost (perhaps as a 3/3) would definitely be pushed, and 3 cost would be straight up ridiculous.

[Serenade]

I'm not sure if these mechanics will return in Crimson Vow, but decayed has a great feel to it. I'd love to see an aura or instant granting it (like Undying Evil) for offensive purposes. Not sure if that breaks color pie since red hates on blocking. Maybe a commander-product-only RB card that gives everything decayed until EOT. I might be drifting too far into custom card creation.

Also makes sense from any zombie POV, so if we ever return to Amonkhet…I think we know the shape of those zombies.

Unfortunately, granting it (especially at instant speed) has some weird interactions due to the way the ability works. For example, you might think that if something attacks, you can grant it decayed to make them sacrifice the creature, right? But since decayed uses a triggered ability to sacrifice the creature, you'd have to grant decayed before they attack to actually cause the sacrifice, at which point the opponent can just not attack.

You could slap some before-attackers/blockers-are-declared requirement on it. I agree that it's not the cleanest interaction.

Now a curse giving it to all of someone's creatures…feels on-brand for this plane.

[Legend]

My issue with Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is it's Dimir, not Bant.

[TheGildedGoose]

I think that Eloise, Nephalia Sleuth is actually accurately costed.

As comparable effects for card draw on death, we have:

• Grim Haruspex, Midnight Reaper at 3 cost, but do not work with tokens.
• Harvester of Souls at 6 cost, still non-token, but a 5/5. (also, Innistrad)
• Dark Prophecy 3 cost, all creatures, but triple black cost.
• Moldervine Reclamation 5 cost, all creatures.
• Fecundity 3 cost, all creatures, but symmetrical. Also old design.
• Liliana, Dreadhorde General 6 cost, all creatures.
• Ulvenwald Mysteries 3 cost, non-token, Investigate.
• Reaper of the Wilds (4 cost) Any creature - Scry (trying to guage the surveil)
• Shadows of the Past 2 cost. and Warteye Witch (3 cost) Any Creature - Scry.

Only about half of these are actually playable, which is my primary criticism.

That's a pretty large list to compare to, with a lot of variables. I think a few things are important:

• Investigate is weaker than straight up draw, since it requires 2 additional mana. However, there are benefits to being able to delay the draw, to having permanents on the board, and to generating tokens, which means it doesn't necessarily have to be that much weaker.
• Eloise triggers to investigate off of every creature dying - including tokens. This immediately puts her higher than the 3 cost Grim Haruspex and Midnight Reaper, or the 3 cost Ulvenwald Mysteries. Judging from Moldervine Reclamation, 5 cost is not un-fair.
• Eloise also triggers to Surveil off of tokens sacrificing. Obviously intended to pair with the clue tokens, but black aristocrat variants will love having plenty of token fodder to sac. No other card has that ability, or anything that directly compares. I'm comparing to scry (2-4 mana), but Surveil is slightly stronger than Scry. However, unlike the scry comparisons, this ability is token only, and scarifice only, which lowers it back down.
• Both of Eloise's abilities trigger off of tokens dying, meaning that you get to both Surveil, and then Investigate, meaning that you get that extra information before you draw. This is pretty powerful, as seen from scry-draw blue spells.

Point by point:

• You forgot that they're vulnerable to removal, which is another huge con. I think you're downplaying just how much 2 mana per draw is when you already have hoops to jump through to get them in the first place.
• She also has a stricter color identity than either Haruspex or Reaper. Mysteries is unplayable, but very cool nonetheless (as is the similarly cool Trail of Evidence). Reclamation is an enchantment, immediately draws cards, and has a solid life gain rider as well. It's also in green, which is much better at producing a lot of creatures compared to blue.
• That's a lot of effort for a little value. 5mv for Eloise + Xmv token producer + Ymv sac outlet for "2: Surveil, draw a card, maybe be able to replace the initial Clue to do it again" is pretty mediocre ROI compared to other 5mv commanders like Yarok, the Desecrated or Chulane, Teller of Tales.

All in all, the combination of both abilities I think puts the 5 cost as a reasonable range. Once you settle on the 5 cost, looking at Harvester of Souls suggests that a 4/4 statline seems reasonable.

4 cost (perhaps as a 3/3) would definitely be pushed, and 3 cost would be straight up ridiculous.

For five mana in Dimir I can get Dralnu, Lich Lord or Phenax, God of Deception or The Scarab God. A clunky value engine makes zero sense at that mana value in this context. I think 3mv would be pushed, but 4mv seems completely safe and where this card should be. You can argue that Yarok, Chulane, and The Scarab God are too pushed, and I would agree, but look at Tatyova, Benthic Druid and tell me this card deserves to be 5mv.

(I admittedly overlooked the March of the Machines synergy in my analysis but like Dirk that's not the kind of play I find enjoyable, so meh.)