Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[toctheyounger]

So, I think I've seen enough squirrel cards for one lifetime. It's kinda lame tbh. Forced tribal is forced tribal, and this tribe is pretty meh at best, cringey at worst.

[BeneTleilax]

but you seem to be fine with precon PWCs, battlebond PWCs, MDFC PWCs, etc. This seems to me like you're fine with the massive cleave that was MDFCs and 2014 walkers, but freaking out over a tiny nick with this guy.

I don't agree with those, but also, those debates are largely settled. I'm sure you can look back in this and other threads to see my views as those unfolded. I'm not interested in relitigating those debates here, because they are irrelevant to this thread, and furthermore, would serve only as a rhetorical diversion.

Lol....yes....it's a slightly different implementation....but the impact is almost exactly the same...So why care? Do you actually want a 1/1 bug mdfc? That's really important to you?

It is important in that by repeatedly broadening the ways to print planeswalkers into the CZ in ways that won't draw attention to that fact, I cannot but feel this is setting the stage for worse. They could print a non-permanent next that's a creature in other zones, and this would be "almost exactly the same". Then something else that's "almost exactly the same". Given that this is an explicit rules change by the RC, now seems as good a time as any to evaluate the course paved by such a rule, not as special carve-out for a certain card, but as a rule of EDH.

[Serenade]

I think it's good to get squirrels out of the way (whether you like them or not).

[DirkGently]

I don't agree with those, but also, those debates are largely settled. I'm sure you can look back in this and other threads to see my views as those unfolded. I'm not interested in relitigating those debates here, because they are irrelevant to this thread, and furthermore, would serve only as a rhetorical diversion.

I'm not relitigating anything, but I think you have to if you want to make the argument that this is a real problem. PWCs give them far more flexibility since it has zero baggage for other formats - no risks of printing a broken reanimation target for example, or empowering goyf or whatever. MDFCs they have already used to create sorceries, pws, artifacts, and enchantments as commanders - in real life, not a theoretical apocalypse scenario. Saying "bug boy and his rules change is a problem " without prefacing it by saying "all these other things are even bigger problems but... " strikes me as basically avoiding the topic. Without that groundwork your argument has no leg to stand on. You just don't want to say it because you suspect you're outvoted and don't want to lose the argument.

It is important in that by repeatedly broadening the ways to print planeswalkers into the CZ in ways that won't draw attention to that fact, I cannot but feel this is setting the stage for worse. They could print a non-permanent next that's a creature in other zones, and this would be "almost exactly the same". Then something else that's "almost exactly the same". Given that this is an explicit rules change by the RC, now seems as good a time as any to evaluate the course paved by such a rule, not as special carve-out for a certain card, but as a rule of EDH.

When wotc established "this can be your commander" as legal rules text, that was the whole ball game. If they want to print any card under the sun and stick that text on it, there's nothing in the world to stop them. Arguing against specific implementations is essentially irrelevant.

[BeneTleilax]

Arguing against specific implementations still gives some restrictions on how they print PW generals, if it did not, WotC would have no reason to pursue them. If the past can serve as unassailable precedent, but the future cannot be speculated upon without being considered doomsaying, you have created the a rhetorical ratchet presenting no opportunities to change course.

[gilrad]

Lots of people are talking about his combo potential, but an interesting thing to consider with Garthy-boy is that casting spells off his ability ignores timing restrictions. I can totally see him being a powerful reactionary toolbox in a more controlling deck; just leaving him untapped with six mana and passing the turn forces your opponents to play around the various things you can do. With a deep graveyard filled with useful instants, your agency in the game is even deeper thanks to the instant-speed regrowth. Being able to refill your hand end-of-turn before you untap is the gold standard, and while people joke about actually using shivan dragons in EDH, flashing one in to develop your board at end-of-turn isn't a horrible play.

For slower metas, I can see him being a really fun and interesting commander.

[DirkGently]

Arguing against specific implementations still gives some restrictions on how they print PW generals, if it did not, WotC would have no reason to pursue them. If the past can serve as unassailable precedent, but the future cannot be speculated upon without being considered doomsaying, you have created the a rhetorical ratchet presenting no opportunities to change course.

Well MDFC is...well...different. It adds a lot of additional decisions and complexity to building and playing them. If they want that complexity, they make an MDFC. If they just want it to be a commander, they just do the "this is your commander" tag. If there's some mechanical reason why it should be a creature in other zones, as with bug boy, then they can do that and get the commander-ability as a bonus. There are reasons to pursue these, yes, but if the only reason was to make it a commander then they could just do that.

WotC doesn't seem to want to print the "this is a commander" in non-commander sets (except battlebond for some reason) but that doesn't mean they can't. If somehow you got what you wanted and the entire playerbase rose up as one and said "We won't stand for things being bugs for commander legality!" then wotc could just shrug and say "fine, we'll just stick the 'this is a commander' tag on it. Happy?"

I never said the past was unassailable. You're the one who created the ratchet when you said you weren't going to relitigate the past. All I'm saying is that, if you want to get bent out of shape about bug boy, you kinda need to argue against all the other stuff too, or else it looks like you're shouting on a molehill when there's a mountain right next to it (mountains being better things to shout at in this crappy metaphor, apparently).

[BeneTleilax]

I never said the past was unassailable. You're the one who created the ratchet when you said you weren't going to relitigate the past. All I'm saying is that, if you want to get bent out of shape about bug boy, you kinda need to argue against all the other stuff too, or else it looks like you're shouting on a molehill when there's a mountain right next to it (mountains being better things to shout at in this crappy metaphor, apparently).

Planeswalker generals are not currently on the RC's docket. The rules around type changes in other zones are. So forgive me for prioritizing the issue at hand. If we cannot prevent PW generals, we can restrict how they are made.

[DirkGently]

Planeswalker generals are not currently on the RC's docket. The rules around type changes in other zones are. So forgive me for prioritizing the issue at hand. If we cannot prevent PW generals, we can restrict how they are made.

I thought of a better metaphor - it's like you're sailing on the "SS commandersarecreatures", freaking out about a pinprick in the hull, but the boat is made of swiss cheese and it's already full of water. And also the majority of sailors are basically fine with the water and some of them are splashing around in it.

Do you actually think they're going to use this mechanic frequently? Or even more than once? I mean it's possible but I think it's unlikely, at least in the near future.

[BeneTleilax]

Do you actually think they're going to use this mechanic frequently? Or even more than once? I mean it's possible but I think it's unlikely, at least in the near future.

If it's a rules change only for Grist, then I find it quite inelegant, and against the RC's philosophy of carving out rules exceptions for individual cards.

Anyway, mildly disappointed Monoskelion doesn't have Modular.

[kraus911]

I've certainly been known to complain about new cards/mechanics/decisions from WOTC, but when it comes to things like getting salty over too much squirrel tribal, I mean... who cares? I get that you might end up playing games with people who've gone full squirrel and it'll be annoying, but in general, if it doesn't warp the format itself, if they're not overpriced must includes, why poop on someone else's party. There are plenty of people who dig it, let them.

My complaint is about Zabaz. My modular deck is grixis. A lot of the modular decks I've seen in EDH are grixis, izzet, dimir... That little white pip that gives it evasion tucks it in a niche that I probably won't play. I guess it goes in an Osgir modular deck, that wouldn't be awful, but it sure reduces the card's usability in EDH.

[BeneTleilax]

My complaint is about Zabaz. My modular deck is grixis. A lot of the modular decks I've seen in EDH are grixis, izzet, dimir... That little white pip that gives it evasion tucks it in a niche that I probably won't play. I guess it goes in an Osgir modular deck, that wouldn't be awful, but it sure reduces the card's usability in EDH.

It's interesting as a general in itself, I reckon. Also, Boros can use all the love it can get.

[kraus911]

My complaint is about Zabaz. My modular deck is grixis. A lot of the modular decks I've seen in EDH are grixis, izzet, dimir... That little white pip that gives it evasion tucks it in a niche that I probably won't play. I guess it goes in an Osgir modular deck, that wouldn't be awful, but it sure reduces the card's usability in EDH.

It's interesting as a general in itself, I reckon. Also, Boros can use all the love it can get.

Can't argue with either of those points. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the decks made with it.

[Cyberium]

Zabaz, The Glimmerwasp

When was the last time we saw "W: Flying"?

[Mookie]

Zabaz, The Glimmerwasp

When was the last time we saw "W: Flying"?

Syr Cadian, Knight Owl, arguably. If you're looking for black-bordered, Skyline Scout or Kor Sky Climber, depending on how strict your templating requirement is.

[JovialJovian]

Zabaz, The Glimmerwasp

When was the last time we saw "W: Flying"?

Glint Hawk Idol I think? Though that does more.

Otherwise I think it's Phelddagrif.

[Cyberium]

Now we just need W: Trample until end of turn.

Carth the Lion is intriguing, not only does it boosts PW ability costs it also has a high chance of keeping an Ajani in play to boost other PWs. Like, Ajani and Lion, great pair.

I look forward to see more Arcbound support. Lorehold is getting a lot of toys and variety, like 3x the W/R had been getting for a decade since the Ravnica fatigue.

[Dragoon]

So, Chef's Kiss is just wonderfully fun. Not being able to pick what it targets makes it less technically good, but I still like it. This is the kind of chaos I can embrace.

Agreed, I was really happy when I saw it. Not strong, but fun and still decent. My favourite kind of random. (It sadly doesn't fit into Golos but I'll still get a foil copy).

Ah yes, Subtlety being the next piece of the Evoke cycle gives me basically certainty that the white one will put +1/+1 counters on something and I'll die a little inside

I hope you're wrong and the white one will be actually playable in EDH. *fingers crossed*

It's not a power-level issue per se, it's a variability issue, which effects how the format is played. With new MDFCs, there was even a thread on "target saturation": avoiding interaction by having your general and threats all be of an uncommon card type. At the extreme end, we saw this in Modern, where the variety, rather than the raw power, of threats devalued removal, and pushed the format in a much more linear, less interactive, direction. EDH has more versatile removal, but the more unconventional threats we see, the greater the pressure on people's removal suites, and the stronger the incentive to diminish interaction in favor of winning faster.

The nature of EDH shapes expectations not only with regard to one's own deckbuilding, but expectations of what it will go up against. The more those expectations are subverted, the more decks are undermined. There is a reason EDH supplanted 60-card casual as the leading casual format, and that is largely due to setting common, basic expectations in its structure. In this way, cards that manipulate the groundrules are more of a danger, because they erode the structure on which the format is built on.

I've always thought that niche answers like Nature's Claim don't have much place in EDH unless you're packing a ton of interaction and play in a very fast meta (like cEDH). Play more versatile removal, there are tons of options with mana values 2 or 3, and WotC keeps printing new ones every year. Unless it is a permanent your color(s) can't deal with, I think there is no real excuse there, it's mostly a deckbuilding choice and you sometimes have to pay the price.

I'm not also not really talking about Grist, I'm talking about the rules change in this format that would allow it to be a general. If it's a rules change only for Grist, then I find it quite inelegant, and against the RC's philosophy of carving out rules exceptions for individual cards. If it is not, then it should be discussed as a broader rules change for the format, outside the power of an individual card. It's not a slippery slope to say that a change to one of the fundamental rules of the format is a change to the fundamental rules of the format.

It is most likely a rule change just for Grist as its ability is new and unique. I also think the fact that he can be played as a Commander is just a consequence of that rule change and the Commander specific rules won't have to change.

[Ginuqu]

the squirls are cute and have wonderful art but they''re just insisting a full tribe into play with this set, it does feel a little overboard? prior to this huge outburst of squirrels you tended to get one decent squirrel card every few blocks, like Liege, Hermit, Wrangler... Odyssey went slightly harder with Nantuko Shrine and that druid, whatever its name was, and felt kinda sharky-jumpy in the way the Squirrels were now their own cards instead of tokens derived from green control cards, but the new Golgari one-drop and the storm token-maker are the best squirrel cards I've ever seen and totally unsubtle at that. Feels just like M21's dogs dogs dogs dogs dogs experience, though, it's not like this kinda cutesy bait is a new paradigm of silly Magic design.

[Wallycaine]

WOTC: Hey, look at these Kaldheim previews, we made more B/G elves, just like you always like!

Nexus Playerbase*: Ugh, elves again, why can't they make cards for new, different tribes?

WOTC: It's time for Modern Horizons 2, and instead of making B/G elves again, we're doing a new, different tribe in squirrels!

Nexus Playerbase*: Ugh, why are there so many squirrel cards, it's almost like they had to make up a whole bunch because it's effectively a new tribe.

WOTC: *stares into camera*

(*I'm not saying these sentiments are all from the same people, just that they're both complaints that got repeated a bunch during each preview season.)

[DirkGently]

WOTC: *stares into camera*

I feel you're ignoring the correct point of view, i.e. mine - all tribal decks are dumb and boring and should never be made by anyone.

I'm rarely on the "white sucks" bandwagon, but Sylvan Anthem really feels like a kick in the balls. Seriously? Honor of the Pure is still one of white's best anthems, and this adds a major bonus at the same cmc by shifting to green. Considering both are intended for monocolor decks, the more restrictive casting cost is basically irrelevant. What the hell, man.

Assuming the commands are a full cycle, I really hope the others aren't basically restricted to niche archetypes. The 2 squirrel token mode, which is nearly rate on its own, means all the other modes are super mediocre and thus it's basically useless outside of squirrels, or maaaaybe some monogreen token decks. Apparently they're really good at anthems these days...

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Tourach definitely seems like a modern card, not really an edh general. The kicker is fairly costed, but a 4/3 (with some growth potential) for 4 with etb double random discard on one opponent is a little limited imo. Still, cool card.

[Rumpy5897]

I had a similar chortle moment earlier in the spoiler season when they revealed Break Ties. Is the reinforce option worth this being one mana more than Return to Nature? It's quite disheartening to hear them saying they're working on white and then having green lap it repeatedly at similar matters.

Tribal legends are inherently rather boring - remember the blowback Ulrich of the Krallenhorde got? Purportedly not a werewolf legend. So since then any sort of tribal legend has the tribe prominently plastered onto it, and there's a rather finite number of ways you can do that.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I had a similar chortle moment earlier in the spoiler season when they revealed Break Ties. Is the reinforce option worth this being one mana more than Return to Nature? It's quite disheartening to hear them saying they're working on white and then having green lap it repeatedly at similar matters.

Tribal legends are inherently rather boring - remember the blowback Ulrich of the Krallenhorde got? Purportedly not a werewolf legend. So since then any sort of tribal legend has the tribe prominently plastered onto it, and there's a rather finite number of ways you can do that.

Gonna have to disagree on Break Ties, which gives you a discounted fourth option over Return to Nature. That has to cost something, so 3 seems appropriate. I think Dirk's onto something with the anthem thing though, which is borderline egregious.

[Wallycaine]

Reinforce is fairly similar to cycling in that it often comes with a mana cost upgrade. As Spirit points out, it's effectively a fourth option which comes at a significant discount. It's also a more universally applicable option: Most draft games won't always have artifacts or enchantments, but a cheap combat trick that sticks around is a strong fallback mode. And as a common, it's clearly aimed at greasing the wheels of Modern Horizons 2 Draft.