rate commanders you've played for physical complication

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folding_music
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Post by folding_music » 1 week ago

I'm looking to build a new deck and am in search of a leader who doesn't make me do a bunch of shuffling, distributing counters and tokens or massive amounts of tapping/untapping. i panic less if i don't have to perform a miillion little actions to make my deck work.

eg if you wanted to make a deck concerning auras, you could compare commanders based on their game mechanics and say "Chishiro is crazy", but you could also compare them in terms of physical mechanics and notice stuff like:

Chishiro, the Shattered Blade - high amount of counter and token placement, including placing counters on tokens (which means bringing and unpacking actual tokens); too complicated
Light-Paws, Emperor's Voice - eventually you'll be searching and shuffling multiple times a turn; too complicated for what i want
Mazzy, Truesword Paladin - very freeing! having enough table space to exile each aura so they're all visible is not too much of a problem; exactly what i want

so which commanders have you found make your hands do a lot of work? and is it possible that people are already tracking this sort of thing? thanks

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 week ago

Sythis, Harvest's Hand is going to be pretty light on hand work--play enchantments, draw cards, go.
Tuvasa the Sunlit is similar, except it will see fewer cards.
Tymna the Weaver + Ravos, Soultender cleric tribal or Orzhov aristocrats is pretty light on extra stuff.
Henzie "Toolbox" Torre not only is nearly totally absent of counters and tokens, but also is good on 1 or 2 spells a turn for most of the game, and doesn't necessarily need to be shuffling--my shuffling effects are fetchlands (not a necessity) and a couple tutors (can make due without them).
Kess, Dissident Mage--I built as discard.
Queen Marchesa politics/goad is in some ways a draw/go deck, and other than her upkeep trigger, (and maybe Smothering Tithe) doesn't do much with tokens.

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PrimevalCommander
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 week ago

My good friend loves his Kadena deck, but with morph, manifest, and disguise, I'm worried the tracking will become cumbersome. Plus having to look underneath all the face down cards often would be annoying to me. But he is infatuated with morph :unamused:

Of the decks I'm playing now, nothing is too terribly complicated or hard to track. I don't get enough repetitions with my decks to play things that require tracking a ton of game actions, or dozens of triggers/counters.

**reading the OP again I see you mean physically complicated, so I need to adjust my list somewhat.

Most complicated physically and mentally:
Rocco, Cabaretti Caterer : it is a toolbox deck built around Wild Pair and required a lot of tutoring and knowing the toolbox. Not so much game tracking though. This is my most physically complicated due to the shuffling and tutoring. I have a cheat-sheet of my creature list to make tutoring faster.
Sefris of the Hidden Ways dungeons required a good bit of tracking of my graveyard and the various triggers I have. It is a budget list, so I need more game actions on average to get ahead than something more powerful. This one is my most mentally complicated because of all the triggers that can happen.

Middle physically complicated: These all either have more tutors (shuffling) or more tokens to keep track of. Though none fatigue my mind or hands like the top two.
Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Titania, Protector of Argoth , God-Eternal Oketra : All these play pretty face up, either midrange aggro or attrition, but nothing that would surprise anyone when looking at the commanders.

Least physically complicated: Minimal tutoring, not to many tokens, counters, or triggers.
Medium complicated mentally because of the play style and themes.
Zurzoth, Chaos Rider is a particularly interesting play style. Read my thread for more. But getting a 2/3 with no protection or evasion into combat to kickstart my engine is a puzzle all it's own. Not counting trying to win the game with a bunch of 1/1 devils
Kalamax, the Stormsire is a tempo deck meant to come out of the gate fast and slow down the rest of the table. Plays a lot from the hand and not much on the board. Which is challenging in a meta with a good supply of removal.
Talrand, Sky Summoner no creatures control : It is less of a "control" deck and more of a slow storm deck that wins via combat with drakes. But having Talrand as the only non-token creature means enemy spot removal only has one place to go if they look my way. But that is the whole point, to make "Mono Blue BAD" a little less loud in their minds until I reach critical mass with cards, mana, and drakes.

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Post by pokken » 1 week ago

Xenagos, God of Revels is my best meathead deck. It requires the ability to count and double things but not much else. :D

Almost all my other decks require just an assload of shuffling, thinking, remembering what's in your hand, yard and top of your deck, etc.

Breena, the Demagogue is my second simplest deck; don't tap out, don't overcommit, put counters on two guys at a time. Easy.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 week ago

Most of my decks just wanna swing, but I built a real bookkeeping nightmare with my The Fourth Doctor/Sarah Jane Smith deck. The whole idea was to %$#% out as many artifact tokens as possible and then use them with Clock of Omens, Unwinding Clock, etc to turbo through dungeons with Immovable Rod.

My board was always a mess after t5. There were like 20 different tokens in that deck and all of them needed to be tracked by piles of dice. I needed at least two of each token so I could track tapped and untapped stuff. I only played the deck less than 10 times because the sheer length and mental load of my turns was just overwhelming. I only think I won most of those games because my opponents had such trouble identifying critical pieces of my gameplan and inadequate removal to truly stop the Rube Goldberg doom machine I'd built.
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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 1 week ago

I tend to enjoy decks that play tutors and/or take quite a few game actions during a turn cycle. I am a fast player though - in most cases I know what I what to tutor for and I resolve triggers pretty smoothly.

Current Decks:
  • Sythis, Harvest's Hand: A lot of triggers and tutors. When I play a single card I get like five triggers and that will happen multiple times a turn when the deck is doing its thing. Not that hard to play, just a lot of book-keeping.
  • Yeva, Nature's Herald: Probably my most complicated deck. Tutors a lot, plenty of triggers and activated abilities, and demands good knowledge of cards in the deck. Very toolboxy.
  • Alela, Cunning Conqueror: Does not take that many game actions. You need to pay good attention to what your opponents are doing though. Draw-go style deck for the most part.
  • Avacyn, Angel of Hope: Plays some tutor/land search effects, but other than that not particularly demanding.
  • Queen Marchesa: Very similar to Avacyn. A few tutors and some triggers during your upkeep and in your end step.
  • Ellivere of the Wild Court: Aura enchantress aggro deck. She doesn't get as many triggers as Sythis does, but you have to do a surprising amount of math. Different auras in the deck scale in slightly different ways and some creatures also get bonuses for being enchanted. Last Friday I had a Kor Spiritdancer with a Virtuous Role token attached to it, as well as Ancestral Mask, Ethereal Armor, Armadillo Cloak and Daybreak Coronet :woozy: (+ other stuff on my and the opponents' boards).
Decks I played in the past:

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Post by materpillar » 1 week ago

Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Play Dino's. Attack.

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Treamayne
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Post by Treamayne » 1 week ago

folding_music wrote:
1 week ago
so which commanders have you found make your hands do a lot of work?
I'm confused. Do you want to know which Generals make too much work, or which we enjoyed that were less "needy"? I'll just classify examples of each. . .

Lots of game actions:
Ghave, Guru of Spores Fungus Tribal - Spore Counters, +1/+1 counters, tokens, etc.
Progenitus' Proliferating Hydrae - Lots of X costs, lots of tapping, and lots of counters (of course)
Toothy, Imaginary Friend Mono-U Illusions - lots of counters, tapping, bounce-and-recast

Middle
Nin, the Pain Artist Tim deck - Lots of tapping as most creatures "ping" and most of those abilities are tap to activate - most intensive at untap phase
Gahiji, Honored One Beasts - Beast tokens, but not too many; some counters, but not too many; Fatties attack, but only a few at a time.

Less game actions:
Bant Exalted - Only ever one creature attacking, banding for defense, so (nearly) all activated abilities do not tap.
Doran, the Siege Tower Walls - Very little attacking until late game - not heavy on counters or tokens
V/R

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Post by Boros_Blendo » 1 week ago

I was going to suggest Xenagos, God of Revels, but Pokken already suggested. U/G shenangans in the 99 are easy with Prime Speaker Zegana. Just cast and draw a bunch. By the time she's dead, you've probably dropped two more lands for the next tax payment.

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Post by Mookie » 1 week ago

Rating my own decks from least physically / logistically complicated to most complicated:
Easy
  • Samut, Voice of Dissent - the objectively simplest deck to play - the deck's name is 'Play Dudes, Turn Sideways'. (more seriously, it's a deck built around tapping and untapping stuff repeatedly - I would put it at medium complexity)
  • Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire - new deck that I only have 2 games with, but it's mostly just focused on beating down. May add some complexity from tokens.
Big Mana, Small Brain
  • Thada Adel, Acquisitor - searching with Thada adds complexity, but everything else is just focused on casting big beaters, so it's otherwise pretty straightforward to play.
  • Tasigur, the Golden Fang - pretty low on the complexity list for me to play, but Tasigur activations add a lot of complexity for opponents. High amount of shuffling for ramp spells, I guess. There can be a lot of game actions in the lategame when I have a ton of mana.
Math Required
  • Animar, Soul of Elements - I need to track counters of Animar. Board can get complicated, and there are tutoring / sequencing / math considerations, but most creatures are just vanilla after their ETB trigger.
  • Sharuum the Hegemon - lots of interlocking artifact synergies add some complexity, but I'm used to it.
  • Kess, Dissident Mage - need to track my own graveyard, highly interactive, lots of thinking required.
  • Brago, King Eternal - lots of ETB triggers to track whenever Brago connects. Often has a complicated board.
Bring Dice
  • Mizzix of the Izmagnus - storm combo deck. Most turns are simple, but storm turns require tracking storm count, mana available, experience counters, and other stuff.
  • Teysa, Orzhov Scion - 'Trigger Warning: The Deck'. Lots of different types of tokens to track, plus lots of triggers. At least I'm not running Cathars' Crusade.
Vaevictis is definitely the simplest to play (currently), while Mizzix and Teysa are definitely the most complicated to manage. Beyond those, I could see the others going up or down depending on what sort of complexity we're talking about. For example, Kess requires lots of thinking and threat assessment but doesn't have much board complexity. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Brago can have a complicated board and a ton of triggers to track but doesn't require much strategizing.

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Post by darrenhabib » 1 week ago

Maybe mono white or mono black control decks that mainly deal with boards at sorcery speed. The plan is simple, wait for your opponents to commit to the board and then wipe. Pass the turn and go off and have a smoke outside and come back when its your turn.
There is no stress or math about "what opponent I should attack my creatures with".
Playing mono cuts down the options and temptations of playing too many search cards meaning you have to shuffle.

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Post by Dragonlover » 1 week ago

Ok, I've got six decks currently:

Easy - minimal shuffling/extra bits

Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer - it's got the usual ramp spells and a couple of creature tutors, basically zero counters outside of a few planeswalkers. Wins with big guys, does have a few 'now I slap a pile of things into play/hand' spells as well like Genesis Wave and Return of the Wildspeaker.

Abaddon the Despoiler - group slug cascade, so you're telling people they're taking damage a fair bit and also flipping off the top every turn, but there's like one token maker and no counters outside of planeswalkers.

Medium - minimal shuffling but potentially lots of game actions/objects

Lathliss, Dragon Queen - Makes a fair few treasures, can also Cloudstone Curio loop for value if it doesn't have the win. No +1/+1 counters or similar, a few 'walkers, no other trinket tokens. One late game source of non-5/5 dragon tokens, I use Infinitokens and just tell the table if it doesn't have stats it's a 5/5, saves so much time.

Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge - The current commander of my wincons deck. Free stuff every upkeep, a lot of treasure generation, many wincons use counters, the longer the game goes the more complicated your upkeep step gets. Doesn't do a huge amount during the rest of the turn though and there's little to no tutoring, so if you don't mind a burst of stuff every turn then it's not too bad.

Hard - stuff everywhere and the boards a mess

Gimbal, Gremlin Prodigy - A Gremlin every turn, several types of trinket token as well as several other types of artifact token with additional replacement effects on top and the possibility of multiple Academy Manufactor, multiple tutors... yeah this is at my personal upper limit for what I can handle, with something like the classic enchantress deck being a step past what I'm comfortable playing in terms of keeping track of stuff.

Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper/Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist - 4c face down shenanigans. You're tracking some combination of morph, manifest, disguise, cloak, Forests and Cybermen at any given time, there's a chance half your board isn't your own cards and you're forever having to pick stuff up to remember what it does. Infinitokens are a must, as is a love of face down mechanics. Not super tutor heavy beyond a few ramp spells but I don't feel that really drops the complexity down.

All the lists are on my Moxfield in my sig, if you've got any questions fire away.

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Post by Sinis » 1 week ago

This might not be exactly what you're thinking of, but I used to have an Isperia the Inscrutable|RAV deck, where the idea was to look at opponent's hands (often via Peek, Gitaxian Probe, Clairvoyance, that kind of stuff), and then tutor a creature with flying that would preempt whatever they had in hand or already on the battlefield.

If opponents had a lot of targeted removal, I would tutor Kira, Great Glass-Spinner. Critical noncreature spells or (typical) wipes were solved by Glen Elendra Archmage. If I needed more of the same or a piece broke, Karmic Guide. Token swarms were put out by Windborn Muse, aristocrat strategies could often be shut down by Angel of Jubilation or Linvala, Keeper of Silence. Dungeon Geists, Sower of Temptation, Stonecloaker, Aven Mindcensor, Draining Whelk, Vendilion Clique, even Voidstone Gargoyle for cards which no other creature could deal with. If it was an answer with wings, I had it, and each time Isperia would connect, my grip on the game would get tighter. Eventually I could win by just tabling Avacyn, Angel of Hope and/or Medomai the Ageless.

This deck was from ages ago, and the options have only increased. Hushwing Gryff, Selfless Spirit, Nimble Obstructionist, Remorseful Cleric, Siren Stormtamer, etc.

The trouble with the deck was keeping three other player's hands in short term memory, knowing what to save my Glen Elendra or other counterspells/removal for, using knowledge of the other player's hands to know when to stop committing to the board, how many 'unknown' cards each player had in hand, etc. The information plus memory use was overwhelming, and after two games with it in a night, I would feel exhausted. It was also probably not tremendously fun to play against.

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Post by Persiflage » 6 days ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 week ago
My good friend loves his Kadena deck, but with morph, manifest, and disguise, I'm worried the tracking will become cumbersome. Plus having to look underneath all the face down cards often would be annoying to me. But he is infatuated with morph :unamused:
PrimevalCommander: tell your friend I understand, and grieve for his soul as I grieve the loss of mine.

This is where I confess to a hideous crime and throw myself on the mercy of the forum. I recently had the idea (suggested to me by a friend and colleague, who is clearly Satan incarnate) of building an Etrata, Deadly Fugitive deck as a nice Dimir-shenanigans foil to my girlfriend's upgraded Fae Dominion precon.

It's... horrendous. An abomination that should never have been conceived. Not because it's OP, or durdles, or doesn't have wincons, or because it steals things a lot (it does), or because it generates interactions without meaning to that everyone has to stop and look up (it does), or because pinning it down is like trying to nail jelly to a ceiling (it is), but because it is physically diabolical to keep track of. Whatever scale of manipulation it is that OP is trying to find the bottom of, this sits at the very top, somewhere several miles past the red line marked 'Do Not Pass This Point If You Ever Want Anyone To Speak With You Voluntarily Again'.

You see, it occurred to me early on that Etrata doesn't care how something came to be face-down, just that it is: and in that one dreadful moment, my destiny as the progenitor of the Deck Of Please Just Kill Me Now became inevitable.

Morph, Manifest, Disguise and Cloak are all in there, in spades, and what I came to realise the hard way is that while Etrata may not care how any given card under my control came to be face-down, everyone else has to, including me. But it doesn't stop there, my word no...

It also copies.

A lot.

The end result is something that everyone thought was a fun, quirky and interesting gameplan - much amusement all around - until about thirty minutes in, when the reality of trying to play this blasphemy-in-cardboard really started to sink in. By then, I'm sitting there with a board covered with face-down cards belonging to four different people, each of which could potentially be turned face-up in anywhere from zero to five different ways, some of which have Ward, plus three different cloning creatures that are copying the same merged permanent but from three different points in time, thanks to my friend's Mutate deck.

Did I mention that one of the cloning creatures was Auton Soldier, so one of the copies of the copied merged permanent also had Myriad?

The right thing - the sane thing - to do at that point would probably have been to allow myself to succumb to a board wipe and slink away from the table, begging forgiveness. The wrong thing to do, clearly, with a board I'm barely able to interpret or physically manage myself, would have been to duplicate the duplicated duplicate, turn a bunch more stuff face-down in front of me and swing with everything: so naturally, I did that.

The phrases 'Math is for blockers' and 'Can't you read a board state?' may have passed my lips. There may or may not have been maniacal laughter. It's all a bit of a blur.

My girlfriend has made it clear that, in the event we were ever to separate, she will use the episode against me in court to demonstrate my obvious unfitness as a role-model for our children. If, that is, she's ever able to find a way to describe the situation that doesn't make her sound equally crazy for voluntarily sitting through the whole thing.

The denouement of this story ought to involve a fireplace and the last sparks of Etrata whirling away on the wind, but face-down cards have me in their grip, and I know all too well that I'll be playing it again. Just as soon as I can find more friends.

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Post by duducrash » 6 days ago

I know my answer is Torens, Fist of the Angels for sure. I was on a "I want to smash face" vibe recently and put together. so many tokens and they all get training. So its tokens and counters going on. crazy

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Post by Persiflage » 6 days ago

materpillar wrote:
1 week ago
Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Play Dino's. Attack.
I second this, although I favour little Pants-Laser over Gishath, which involves resolving Discover triggers. They're pretty simple to deal with though, as you generally hit pay-dirt within a couple of cards, and basically it's the same deal: ramp out, spew dinosaurs all over the place, turn dinosaurs sideways, eat face. Warstorm Surge and/or Molten Echoes if you're feeling fancy, but skip the latter if you don't even want to bother with tokens.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 hour ago

Interesting design I noticed: Vraska, the Silencer is very similar to Shelob, Child of Ungoliant, but notably uses the actual card instead of a token copy.

It's a bummer that this prevents it from working on commanders, but in terms of bookkeeping it seems like a huge improvement.
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