SCD: Humble Defector

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 weeks ago

Working on my GBU review and made is as far as Yes Man, Personal Securiton - and of course my mind went to Humble Defector. I'm not sure if we've talked about him on here before, but he came up in a recent game (he comes up pretty frequently in general) and I want to talk about him because I HAAAAATE this card.

On the surface it looks like the sort of thing I should like a lot - it pays you off for playing politically. But every time someone plays it, I get a burning hatred in my heart, and every time I play it (i.e. when I'm borrowing a deck or playing a precon or whatever) I wish it could be anything else. And I want to explore why that might be.

1) It creates bipolar games

Mutually benefitting from a game action is a common and inevitable occurrence in multiplayer magic, but there can be too much of a good thing. Trade Secrets is a banned card because it creates games where two players, acting within their self-interest, essentially reduce a 4p game to a 2p game with a single 3mv card, because the CA generated is so overwhelming. Humble defector obviously isn't THAT bad, but a 2mv card that generates 2 cards per turn is pretty insane - a common play pattern for the card is to exchange it back and forth with a single opponent, each drawing 2 cards every turn cycle. From the perspective of someone not being given the defector, it's 2 cards per turn cycle for multiple opponents, off the back of a single 2mv card. Trying to fight against that is not so far away from trying to outvalue a Consecrated Sphinx, except at 2 mana.

2) It incentivizes bad deals

In principle, the "let's exchange this card forever" plan should eventually fail because the two benefitting players will become each others' biggest rivals, and so they'll be incentivized not to return it, letting the other players have a turn. Unfortunately this doesn't always work, because commander players are often pretty...let's go with "anti-smart". They see that they're getting big value from this humble defector, and loathe to risk a course of action that might stop the gravy train, will keep passing it back to the person who is threatening to win the game.

This can often happen right from the start of the exchange. "Who wants to pass this back to me?" asks the player who is clearly ahead, while activating his humble defector. Well, of course, everyone wants to get a bunch of free CA, so they happily agree to pass the defector back to him, as long as he picks them. Thus putting the most threatening player even further ahead. If they all looked at each other and said "you're clearly ahead, so we're collectively agreeing not to make such a deal with you - if you want to use your defector, you'll have to accept that you aren't getting it back in the near future". But commander players rarely see that line. They just see their own short-term card advantage, not the risk their greed will incur down the line.

3) Group hug sucks

I think most people hate group hug. Explaining why is it's own interesting subject, but I think it's probably less controversial to just assume a hatred for group hug and move past it. Humble defector could, in principle, be a "benefits only those who are behind" card, which isn't so much of a problem, but in practice because of how people use it, it's quite likely to end up making the already-rich richer.

4) Deals are done for frivolous and arbitrary reasons

In theory the idea of benefitting an opponent, either in exchange for something, or in order to improve their ability to assist against other players, is extremely cool and based actually (not biased). However, a big problem with the design of Humble Defector is that defector's current controller really, really wants to draw those cards right now. Unless they're making a "I pass you defector if you pass it back" deal, most of the time in my experience they will pass it to someone more-or-less at random. They aren't trying to create a benefit from the donation aspect, they just want the cards and the donation is a cost. That guy says he won't attack me next turn if I pass it to him? Okay, good enough, whatever, here you go. I just want the cards. That guy raised his hand first? Fine, that works, I just want the cards.

The same problem exists for cards like Forbidden Orchard - in theory it can be both a rainbow land AND a reasonably powerful political tool...but c'mon, man, I just need the mana to cast a spell, I don't want to do a bunch of !@#!@# haggling. Except with Humble Defector it's a lot more impactful of a decision that just giving away a 1/1 token. But you don't want to do a bunch of haggling. So whatever, first person to say something I like, you can have him. I just want the cards.

(Since I suspect someone will bring up Phelddagrif - if it's not already clear, Phelddagrif doesn't really have this problem, because rarely are you desperate to activate his abilities for the half of them that benefits you - usually it's because you deliberately want to help an opponent in some way, so benefitting them isn't a random afterthought - it's the whole point, and has the accompanying decision-making weight behind it)

I think those are my main reasons for hating it. But I welcome further insight into why the card does, or doesn't, suck.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by materpillar » 3 weeks ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 weeks ago
2) It incentivizes bad deals
4) Deals are done for frivolous and arbitrary reasons

I think those are my main reasons for hating it. But I welcome further insight into why the card does, or doesn't, suck.
Humble Defector is great and is far from sucking. Let's start off with points 2&4. Phelddagrif incentivizes the average player to make group hug decks and not a streamlined control deck meant to keep pseudo-cEDH decks in check. Because most people use Phelddagrif in a way that results in frivolous hippo giving and card drawing and terrible deals is not the fault of the card. You say Phelddagrif doesn't have the same problem but I say that it does. Phelddagrif reputation as one of the lead group hug commanders means it clearly incentivizes suboptimal builds and decisions. In the same way that Humble Defector incentives people to tap it without thinking. Just because you don't fall for the trap doesn't mean that everyone else falling for it makes the card bad.
DirkGently wrote:
3 weeks ago
1) It creates bipolar games
…From the perspective of someone not being given the defector, it's 2 cards per turn cycle for multiple opponents, off the back of a single 2mv card. Trying to fight against that is not so far away from trying to outvalue a Consecrated Sphinx, except at 2 mana.
3) Group hug sucks
Group hug doesn't suck and creating bipolar games is a perk not a downside.

I have a friend who is a diehard control player. He wins in basically the same way as Phelddagrif, survive to the late game and then win a 1v1 by soft locking your opponent under a shear weight of removal/card advantage. He primarily survives to the late game by make deals and leveraging threats of removal. If you introduce some anarchy, say with Howling Mine or Humble Defector. His ability to threaten removal as a political tool evaporates. There are too many people with too many threats. His card advantage engines simply can't keep up with Howling Mine drawing his opponents 3 extra cards a turn cycle. He's desperately slinging removal to keep the table in check and people naturally target him since he's playing control. The politics play themselves out, I barely have to do any work.

Group Hug benefits aggressive/assertive/combo strategies. I'm aware of this and it is a deliberate deckbuilding choice. I'm building a deck that floods my opponents with resources so that they kill off the control players and do tons of damage to each other. It's specifically anti-control tech. For me Humble Defector is to control what Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is to storm. Anyway, because of that it doesn't surprise me you hate the card.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 weeks ago

materpillar wrote:
3 weeks ago
Phelddagrif incentivizes the average player to make group hug decks and not a streamlined control deck meant to keep pseudo-cEDH decks in check.
I think we can look at what the card mechanically incentivizes as a separate question from how people tend to play it. Not to dismiss either question, they're both relevant. But I don't think Phelddagrif mechanically incentivizes group hug, even if people do often play him that way.
Just because you don't fall for the trap doesn't mean that everyone else falling for it makes the card bad.
Fair enough that, mechanically, defector could/should be used intentionally for well-considered political reasons, in the same way Phelddagrif can/should - even though both of them frequently aren't.

That said, from a mechanical point of view, if there's no good reason to start giving out hippos or life, Phelddagrif can sit tight and I don't lose any value. Whereas defector is costing CA while you're not activating it. That incentive to hurry up and use it exists regardless of how thoughtfully you consider who you target with him. If someone passes me a defector turn 3, and board states are basically equal, I don't have a clear choice of who I should give it to, nor a favor I should ask for, but it's still probably correct to use him (depending ofc). Maybe I do make a thoughtful decision about who to target, but the reasons are probably going to be pretty flimsy when things are so equal. So now I'm making a potentially significant decision pretty arbitrarily. I don't think that's an enjoyable gameplay pattern.
Group hug doesn't suck
I think you'll be outvoted on that.
creating bipolar games is a perk not a downside.
Do you disagree with Trade Secrets being banned? I think a single low-cost card bipolarizing a game is a bad thing personally. Obviously defector isn't as bad as trade secrets, but still.
His ability to threaten removal as a political tool evaporates.
From a howling mine? I mean tempo is still a thing. Board wipes are still a thing. Killing the sources of CA are a thing.
people naturally target him since he's playing control.
But control players are your friends :love:
I barely have to do any work.
I feel like either you're greatly oversimplifying or your friend isn't doing a good job of playing control. I've played against group hug decks with Phelddagrif and other control decks. It's annoying for the same reasons group hug is always annoying, but it's not that big of an issue.
Group Hug benefits aggressive/assertive/combo strategies.
Kind of, but I'd say it mostly benefits people who suck at building CA into their decks xD

This all sounds like theorycraft to me. A control player drawing a bunch of extra cards is going to hit board wipes that can mop up the inflated enemy CA, removal for the CA engines you're playing if desired, and removal tends to be much more tempo-efficient than threats. Group hug is probably on-average worse for a control player than other archetypes, but it's not remotely this "EZ control-b-gon" button like you're making it out to be, at least not in any of my experiences.
I'm building a deck that floods my opponents with resources so that they kill off the control players and do tons of damage to each other.
But not you because...?
It's specifically anti-control tech.
Sounds unreliable. I prefer Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Lightning Greaves, etc.
Anyway, because of that it doesn't surprise me you hate the card.
Honestly part of what I hate about it, especially in my current group, is that I could pretty easily pull off the "let's trade this back and forth" thing, but it feels like tricking a child. It's really not a difficult card to exploit against typical commander players, regardless of which archetype you're playing.

I've generally abstained from overt political engagement with this playgroup because it's too easy. I'd probably be okay with defector if I was playing against better players who actually made smart decisions around it, but those are fairly rare.

Anyway I'm certainly a control player at heart, but I play all sorts of things.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Toshi » 3 weeks ago

If you ask me Humble Defector adds a similar dynamic to the game as Monarch does.
Once in play, you will see players haggling for deals, "spreading" CA to battle the person in front et al. What makes it considerably stronger is, that you get 2 cards and don't have to wait for your end step, where part of the cards might not be playable anymore.
I wouldn't necessarily call it group hug, since there's no guarantee everyone will profit from it. To be fair it is still a lot better in that aspect than Bucknard's Everfull Purse or Hithlain Rope, since they are dreadfully slow and you are usually screwed if you're the one sitting to the left of its owner.
I would never complain about Humble Defector as a card, since i love the design (outside the CZ!) but i can completely see the problems, if you're playing with randoms, inexperienced or super salty players. Throwing tantrums or CA the wrong way will go wrong, for sure.
Despite me liking the card, i'm rarely tempted to run it myself - unless i have plenty of ways to get rid of it anywhere on the table. In case things go awry (like someone having multiple ways to untap it) you just have to deal with it.

Side note: It's one of the few cards that have a LotR version i don't like at all.

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Post by Dunadain » 3 weeks ago

All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by DirkGently » 3 weeks ago

Toshi wrote:
3 weeks ago
Side note: It's one of the few cards that have a LotR version i don't like at all.
Oh huh, that art kinda sucks eh. I hadn't seen that before.

I do think it can in principle be a cool card in the ways you described, I guess I just rarely see it pan out that way.
Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
Humble Defector + Homeward Path BABEEEE!
See that I don't mind xD I guess run Yes Man, Personal Securiton with all the land tutors you can find in mono-white. Expedition Map, Weathered Wayfarer...anything else?
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Dunadain » 3 weeks ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 weeks ago

See that I don't mind xD I guess run Yes Man, Personal Securiton with all the land tutors you can find in mono-white. Expedition Map, Weathered Wayfarer...anything else?
You're not thinking Janky enough, next step is to start tutoring for your tutors. Urza's Saga, Recruiter of the Guard, etc.

Super clunky to be sure, but the payoff is respectable, especially once you start untapping yes man multiple times a turn, and everytime he gets removed you get some tokens.

It won't be good, but it's the most interesting commander in the set I think.

Edit: wait, they fixed the wording so you can't untap and re-activate yes man before the first ability resolves any more, boo!
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by yeti1069 » 3 weeks ago

A few thoughts:

About 1/3rd of the time I see Humble Defector, its controller never gives it so someone else; they activate, then bounce/flicker/Homeward Path. Yes Man cannot be used that way, since it only provides the cards after control has changed. Or rather, it's a little clunkier to use that way, since you need to use stuff that works after control has passed. Homeward Path still works, but a lot of the bounce/flicker options I've seen wouldn't.

I dislike group hug, but most of the times I've been at a table with someone playing group hug, the other 2 players LOVE it. More cards? More mana? YES PLEASE!

Everyone gets real salty with me when I blow up someone else's Howling Mine (or similar). By this I conclude that most players aren't all that familiar with the theories of card advantage, and how those translate to multiplayer games...just like the players who play Howling Mine effects and then wonder why they lose all the time.

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Post by Dunadain » 3 weeks ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Howling Mine effects and then wonder why they lose all the time.
tbf, theoretically, howling mine effects can be advantageous. In an archenemy situation you're giving you and your allies 3 cards a turn, and your enemy only 1 card a turn.

I have yet to see a deck where that edge case justifies playing them, but it does exist.
Last edited by Dunadain 3 weeks ago, edited 1 time in total.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by DirkGently » 3 weeks ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
You're not thinking Janky enough, next step is to start tutoring for your tutors. Urza's Saga, Recruiter of the Guard, etc.
Fair point! I should have thought of that, considering how often I tutor for tutors xD Enlightened tutor also works...Inventors' Fair...Oswald Fiddlebender with artifact lands...Ranger-Captain of Eos and Ranger of Eos...there might actually be a brew here tbh.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Toshi » 3 weeks ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
I have yet to see a deck where that edge case justifies playing them, but it does exist.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 weeks ago

Toshi wrote:
3 weeks ago
Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
I have yet to see a deck where that edge case justifies playing them, but it does exist.
The Council of Four says hi!
Tbf, that doesn't make howling mine playable BECAUSE of that particular case - it makes it playable because of the direct synergy with the commander.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
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Post by yeti1069 » 3 weeks ago

Toshi wrote:
3 weeks ago
Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
I have yet to see a deck where that edge case justifies playing them, but it does exist.
The Council of Four says hi!
This is a partial exception, since you're not giving opponents more resources than you're getting: they get 3 cards and you get 5 (using 2 cards), each turn cycle.

But, for example, nearly every Nekusar, the Mindrazer I've played against has lost, because players are generally happy to receive the benefits of Greed without having to pay mana for the card, and even moderately savvy players know they need to remove Nekusar in response to a wheel...and they've been fed extra resources to do just that.

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Post by materpillar » 3 weeks ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 weeks ago
I think we can look at what the card mechanically incentivizes as a separate question from how people tend to play it. Not to dismiss either question, they're both relevant. But I don't think Phelddagrif mechanically incentivizes group hug, even if people do often play him that way.
I'm a little unclear about what difference you see between mechanically incentives and how people tend to play it. I have a hard time not seeing a strong correlation between how people are playing a card and what it is mechanically incentivizing people to do. Obviously, how people play a card is based on a lot of things like mtg culture, available online info and such. But mechanical incentives are definitely high on the list.
Fair enough that, mechanically, defector could/should be used intentionally for well-considered political reasons, in the same way Phelddagrif can/should - even though both of them frequently aren't.

That said, from a mechanical point of view, if there's no good reason to start giving out hippos or life, Phelddagrif can sit tight and I don't lose any value. Whereas defector is costing CA while you're not activating it. That incentive to hurry up and use it exists regardless of how thoughtfully you consider who you target with him. If someone passes me a defector turn 3, and board states are basically equal, I don't have a clear choice of who I should give it to, nor a favor I should ask for, but it's still probably correct to use him (depending ofc). Maybe I do make a thoughtful decision about who to target, but the reasons are probably going to be pretty flimsy when things are so equal. So now I'm making a potentially significant decision pretty arbitrarily. I don't think that's an enjoyable gameplay pattern.
That's fair. I find but I find the situation of board states being "basically equal" to be rather rare. You can usually make a pretty accurate by the mid game as to the strength of peoples decks/late game based on commanders and such. Even turn 3 you should have a fair amount of info just from commander choices, pregame deck discussions, and early game ramp. I suppose I don't play very many games with totally random pods at LGSs so my opinion is quite biased in this account.
Group hug doesn't suck
I think you'll be outvoted on that.
*shrug* Depends.
creating bipolar games is a perk not a downside.
Do you disagree with Trade Secrets being banned? I think a single low-cost card bipolarizing a game is a bad thing personally. Obviously defector isn't as bad as trade secrets, but still.
Humble Defector is a Divination and Trade Secrets is an Enter the Infinite. They're not remotely on the same level. For Humble Defector to be better than Secret Rendezvous it has to live for 3 turns while having a completely cooperative opponent. If they other two players let it live during a mutual trade deal without them for 3+ turns that's on them.
His ability to threaten removal as a political tool evaporates.
From a howling mine? I mean tempo is still a thing. Board wipes are still a thing. Killing the sources of CA are a thing.
I exaggerate for brevity. He doesn't fold to a single Howling Mine. I can apply significant pressure to the control player via fueling other aggro players via Howling Mine type effects.
people naturally target him since he's playing control.
But control players are your friends :love:
For sure you want a control player around when someone slams Torment of Hailfire. <3

Less so when you're in topdeck mode. XD
I barely have to do any work.
I feel like either you're greatly oversimplifying or your friend isn't doing a good job of playing control. I've played against group hug decks with Phelddagrif and other control decks. It's annoying for the same reasons group hug is always annoying, but it's not that big of an issue.
I'm greatly oversimplifying. I wheel and deal with my group hug in a way that plays out like you do with Phelddagrif. The levers I pull just different.
Group Hug benefits aggressive/assertive/combo strategies.
Kind of, but I'd say it mostly benefits people who suck at building CA into their decks xD
Well those too I suppose.
This all sounds like theorycraft to me. A control player drawing a bunch of extra cards is going to hit board wipes that can mop up the inflated enemy CA, removal for the CA engines you're playing if desired, and removal tends to be much more tempo-efficient than threats. Group hug is probably on-average worse for a control player than other archetypes, but it's not remotely this "EZ control-b-gon" button like you're making it out to be, at least not in any of my experiences.
Game is complicated, I'm painting in very broad strokes. I built a group hug deck on a whim and it massively vexed my local control player every time I played it. I theorycrafted from why my control opponent hated it back to what I perceive as the root cause. It's definitely been my personal metagame experience. It's definitely not applicable at very high combo filled powerlevels. Group hug just gets everyone immediately dead. It's more for the some fairer tables.

If the control player is managing to constantly mop up and out tempo multiple opponents while consistently getting 2 or 3-for-1d by every group hug effect than nothing anyone was going to do was going to save that game. You have to apply significant pressure to burst through a control players defenses. Group hug jacks up the games internal pressure dramatically making it more likely the control player will crumble.
I'm building a deck that floods my opponents with resources so that they kill off the control players and do tons of damage to each other.
But not you because...?
Oh, I get wailed on too but usually there's someone more important to kill. Then, hopefully everyone is low enough to Comet Storm or something of that flavor before I die. It's a pretty fine line that definitely doesn't always pan out in my favor.
It's specifically anti-control tech.
Sounds unreliable. I prefer Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Lightning Greaves, etc.
Please. Boseiju, Who Shelters All and lightning greaves are significantly less reliable than having the person to your left eating all the removal and counterspells because their boardstate is more threatening. You know this just as well as I do..
Honestly part of what I hate about it, especially in my current group, is that I could pretty easily pull off the "let's trade this back and forth" thing, but it feels like tricking a child. It's really not a difficult card to exploit against typical commander players, regardless of which archetype you're playing.

I've generally abstained from overt political engagement with this playgroup because it's too easy. I'd probably be okay with defector if I was playing against better players who actually made smart decisions around it, but those are fairly rare
I've personally found the "trade it back and forth deal" to be fairly rare. The last time I cast him, I gave it to someone, who shortly there after, equipped it with a Sword of X and Y and bashed me in the face.

Like many cards it might not be suitable for your current playgroup.
Anyway I'm certainly a control player at heart, but I play all sorts of things.
Except for group hug. :P
Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
yeti1069 wrote:
3 weeks ago
Howling Mine effects and then wonder why they lose all the time.
tbf, theoretically, howling mine effects can be advantageous. In an archenemy situation you're giving you and your allies 3 cards a turn, and your enemy only 1 card a turn.

I have yet to see a deck where that edge case justifies playing them, but it does exist.
I've got a Yurlok of Scorch Thrash deck whose primary wincondition is Howling Mine to feed aggro players into Insurrection/Vicious Shadows or Mana Flare to feed opponents Torment of Hailfire/Genesis Wave into my Reverberate


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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 weeks ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
Edit: wait, they fixed the wording so you can't untap and re-activate yes man before the first ability resolves any more, boo!
Did they? If so, I'm significantly less excited for it. Boo indeed.

I'm running Humble Defector in Samut, and one of the better tap abilities there. It's not difficult for me to draw 6-8 cards off it by untapping it a few times. If I don't have that ability, I'll usually try to cut a deal with one of my opponents - I'll give it to them if they give it back... and if no one accepts (such as because I'm poised to draw 6-8 cards off it), then I'll pass to whichever opponent I perceive to be furthest behind. I haven't seen a pattern where two people pass it back and forth unconditionally. Sure, I may pass it to the same opponent several times because the fact that they pass it back demonstrates they're trustworthy enough for it to be passed back again... but as soon as that opponent starts pulling ahead, I'll look elsewhere.

In practice, I find it's usually a Secret Rendezvous or Cut a Deal, and any untap effects make it significantly more skewed in my favor. I wouldn't compare it to Trade Secrets unless we're comparing to the baseline 'draw 4 // opponent draws 2'.

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Post by Dunadain » 3 weeks ago

I do agree with @Mookie regarding control decks. I think control decks struggle more when a group hug deck is at the table, but I'm not sure that those percentage points go back to the group hug player, I feel they get distributed to the other players moreso.
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Post by yeti1069 » 3 weeks ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
I do agree with @Mookie regarding control decks. I think control decks struggle more when a group hug deck is at the table, but I'm not sure that those percentage points go back to the group hug player, I feel they get distributed to the other players moreso.
In my experience it's rare for the group hug player to turn the corner and find a win. More often, the combo deck or high-end aggro deck crushes everyone.

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Post by Sinis » 3 weeks ago

I usually loathe these kinds of effects (like Secret Rendezvous), but Humble Defector has some teeth, simply because it's more exploitable with other actions. Draw some cards, sacrifice them to (anything)? Sure, it's probably on par with Divination in a pinch. Homeward Path it, excellent. Make a deal with someone, fine, if you must.

In the naive vacuum case of trading it off with a player, I think it's very situational, and I'd rather if it was modal (like Your Temple Is Under Attack), however, it's not completely worthless; I often find myself in situations where my decks are weaker and I need to cooperate with another player to handle a player who is popping off (for that reason, I like Scheming Symmetry).

I like the 'deal' aspect, and I wish design would make cards like Love Song of Night and Day or Your Temple Is Under Attack where it could be used to have cooperative draw, but you also don't have to execute that part of the text (looking at you, again, Secret Rendezvous). Ideally, I'd like them to be more playable; I haven't sleeved up any card in this style except Humble Defector and Scheming Symmetry (and the latter I have only played when I was able to just swing for lethal on the player I schemed with, which feels like it's against the spirit of the card).

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Post by DirkGently » 3 weeks ago

materpillar wrote:
3 weeks ago
I'm a little unclear about what difference you see between mechanically incentives and how people tend to play it. I have a hard time not seeing a strong correlation between how people are playing a card and what it is mechanically incentivizing people to do. Obviously, how people play a card is based on a lot of things like mtg culture, available online info and such. But mechanical incentives are definitely high on the list.
Yes, typically mechanical incentives are the biggest factor in terms of how people build/play it. But not always. A good example would be Ruhan of the Fomori who we were talking about earlier. People usually play him as Giant tribal even though his support for that archetype is very low.

Sometimes people pick the commander based on theme rather than synergy. An extreme version of this would be something like chair tribal (depending on how many chair cards are available I guess - for sake of argument, let's say it's barely 100 so there's no wiggle room with the deck). Why is X card in the deck? Because it has a chair in it. Not because it synergizes with anything in a way that facilitates a win. It's a thematic decision, not a strategic decision.

Group hug and chaos decks are probably the two most common examples of this, and I think it's a big part of why I think those sorts of decks are so reviled - because those decks (usually) aren't built to execute a strategy. They're built to exemplify a theme. There aren't a lot of payoffs for broadly chaotic cards - there might be payoffs for coin flipping or dice rolling or whatever, but why put are we putting Grip of Chaos into Norin the Wary, even though it's going to mess up a lot of his targeted effects? Because it fits with the theme of chaos, not because of any mechanical synergies it has.

Similarly for Phelddagrif - who unfortunately is burdened with being the first commander that gives resources to your opponents, and is thus established in the mind of many players as being "the group hug guy". What is the mechanical synergy between Phelddagrif and Howling Mine? Pretty damn close to zero, especially since Phelddagrif's draw is optional if we're trying to punish draws. And yet howling mine and similar effects are played in a huge number of Phelddagrif decks. Because they match the theme, even if there's no mechanical incentives going on.
That's fair. I find but I find the situation of board states being "basically equal" to be rather rare. You can usually make a pretty accurate by the mid game as to the strength of peoples decks/late game based on commanders and such. Even turn 3 you should have a fair amount of info just from commander choices, pregame deck discussions, and early game ramp. I suppose I don't play very many games with totally random pods at LGSs so my opinion is quite biased in this account.
I do agree that frequently it's clear who the threat is, though not always. This format can be pretty chaotic.

As I've said elsewhere, I think if people were always making intelligent decisions with defector it wouldn't annoy me so much, but I've frequently had people give him away to the most threatening player "because he hasn't had a turn yet" or some other nonsense justification.
*shrug* Depends.
I will say that, while online it seems to be 90:10 against group hug, in person it's more like 50:50, favoring group hug if it's more casual, disfavoring if it's more serious.

But we're arguing online so drown in your sea of downvotes xD
Humble Defector is a Divination and Trade Secrets is an Enter the Infinite. They're not remotely on the same level. For Humble Defector to be better than Secret Rendezvous it has to live for 3 turns while having a completely cooperative opponent. If they other two players let it live during a mutual trade deal without them for 3+ turns that's on them.
I don't think it's nearly THAT disparate. Humble defector is drawing 2 per turn for multiple players as a 2-drop, that's pretty %$#%$#% efficient. A hell of a lot more efficient than divination. Sure it takes a turn to warm up, but once it's going, it's going pretty fast. For more casual decks, drawing 2 extra cards per turn might be easier to use than having one big glut of cards all at once (unless they're running reliquary tower or w/e).

Regardless, you said creating a bipolar game was an upside to the card. If creating a bipolar game is a positive thing, then why not be okay with trade secrets?
people naturally target him since he's playing control.
But control players are your friends :love:
For sure you want a control player around when someone slams Torment of Hailfire. <3

Less so when you're in topdeck mode. XD
If you're feeding people tons of cards, why would they be in topdeck mode?

I mean, obviously it's context dependent, but I don't really see justification for why people would want to gun for the control player unless either the control player was the biggest threat, or they were the biggest threat and trying to remove the obstacles to their victory. Which specific archetype someone is playing doesn't seem, to me, to factor into it much in the abstract.

If he's being very conspicuous about his controlliness then people can definitely react negatively to that (regardless of whether someone is playing group hug), but that's a personal problem imo.
I'm greatly oversimplifying. I wheel and deal with my group hug in a way that plays out like you do with Phelddagrif. The levers I pull just different.
I think it's worth separating cards that target, like Victory Chimes, from cards that don't, like Veteran Explorer. Politicking is possible with the former, but not nearly as much, if at all, with the latter.
Group Hug benefits aggressive/assertive/combo strategies.
Kind of, but I'd say it mostly benefits people who suck at building CA into their decks xD
Well those too I suppose.
Personally I find group hug to be annoying regardless of what archetype I built, for essentially this reason. I built my deck to work on its own. Having a consistent plan for CA is a big part of that. Someone else handing me stacks of cards for free renders all my CA plans pointless, invalidating a lot of what my deck wants to be doing. I don't enjoy that.
Game is complicated, I'm painting in very broad strokes.
I would suggest that I think you're being overly-influenced by your particular meta. The way you've described things playing out doesn't correspond to what I've seen. Certainly not to any great degree. It could play out that way under some circumstances, but I don't think there's a universal truth about group hug beating control being uncovered.
If the control player is managing to constantly mop up and out tempo multiple opponents while consistently getting 2 or 3-for-1d by every group hug effect than nothing anyone was going to do was going to save that game. You have to apply significant pressure to burst through a control players defenses. Group hug jacks up the games internal pressure dramatically making it more likely the control player will crumble.
This definitely verges into theorycraft, but if I'm playing a wipe-happy control deck with a few dozen wipes in it, and you're giving me +3 cards every turn cycle, then I'm going to be averaging a wipe every turn, so unless my opponents are hitting with haste/indestructible/etc, I can hold them off indefinitely. Whereas if you weren't juicing me with CA I'd only be able to wipe every ~4 turns. So even though the other players aren't drawing as many creatures to play, the ones they do play at least get a chance to attack a couple times before getting exploded. And the more you boost everyone's CA, the more likely it becomes that the control player is able to wipe every turn. And then it doesn't matter how many creatures the other players are putting onto the battlefield.

And FWIW I have had games play out like this in the past to a subtler degree. I wanted to play a sneaky political control game, but I keep getting fed board wipes so WYGD?

Of course it won't always play out that cleanly - haste/indestructible/etc are a thing - but you can maybe see how group hugging could make the situation worse against the control player, rather than better.
Oh, I get wailed on too but usually there's someone more important to kill. Then, hopefully everyone is low enough to Comet Storm or something of that flavor before I die. It's a pretty fine line that definitely doesn't always pan out in my favor.
In the abstract, I don't see any good reason why a control player couldn't be that "there's someone more important to kill" player. I mean tbf that's kind the essence of my Phelddagrif build. Again I don't think there's a universal truth about group hug and control revealed, it's all a matter of the context of the game and who is the most threatening.

I would think knowing that comet storm/insurrection/vicious shadows are in the deck would mean people are a lot more likely to go after you tbh. People tend to go after combo players in my experience, since otherwise they have too much opportunity to get set up. If everyone knows you could win the game from a single card, that could draw a lot of targeting ime.
It's specifically anti-control tech.
Sounds unreliable. I prefer Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Lightning Greaves, etc.
Please. Boseiju, Who Shelters All and lightning greaves are significantly less reliable than having the person to your left eating all the removal and counterspells because their boardstate is more threatening. You know this just as well as I do..
Another player maybe being more threatening and maybe being perceived that way and maybe eating enough counterspells to give you a window (while you're feeding more counterspells to the counterspell player) is more reliable than an uncounterable card that just says "counterspells don't work on me"?

Okay...
I've personally found the "trade it back and forth deal" to be fairly rare. The last time I cast him, I gave it to someone, who shortly there after, equipped it with a Sword of X and Y and bashed me in the face.
Did you try to make a deal, or just pass it to them?

I think the card is potentially enjoyable on the conditions of 1) people don't suck and 2) people don't make the trade-back-and-forth deal. I think it's reasonable for people to accept the back-and-forth deal if it's offered but I think the gameplay pattern sucks for the same reason trade secrets sucks.
Like many cards it might not be suitable for your current playgroup.
Unfortunately regardless of whether or not I include it, other people will include it, and then it will get passed to me. So my abstention doesn't solve the issue.
Anyway I'm certainly a control player at heart, but I play all sorts of things.
Except for group hug. :P
Or chaos or chair tribal. I prefer to play strategies, not themes.

FWIW I do think your Yurlok deck is interesting and not a mindless theme-pile. But yours is by far the exception when talking about group hug.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Mookie » 3 weeks ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
I do agree with @Mookie regarding control decks. I think control decks struggle more when a group hug deck is at the table, but I'm not sure that those percentage points go back to the group hug player, I feel they get distributed to the other players moreso.
I don't think I actually shared my thoughts re: control decks - looks like you're referencing someone else.

That said, I do agree with this sentiment. Categorically, I would say that control decks intend to deprive their opponents of options - if your opponent no longer has a path to victory and you still do, you will inevitably win. This means that control decks generally favor depriving their opponents of resources - if your opponent has more cards available, then they're more likely to be able to find a way to win or otherwise mess up your plans.

On the other hand, group hug decks generally give their opponents more options - more cards, more mana, and more stuff. This is, by definition, the exact opposite of what the control player wants. So yeah, I will generally agree that group hug harms the control player and helps the other players at the table. It's possible to help the control player if it lets them turn the corner and combo out or something, but it doesn't contribute to their primary gameplan.

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Post by Dunadain » 3 weeks ago

Mookie wrote:
3 weeks ago
I don't think I actually shared my thoughts re: control decks - looks like you're referencing someone else.
lol, my b
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Post by materpillar » 3 weeks ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 weeks ago
Yes, typically mechanical incentives are the biggest factor in terms of how people build/play it. But not always. A good example would be Ruhan of the Fomori who we were talking about earlier. People usually play him as Giant tribal even though his support for that archetype is very low.
...
What is the mechanical synergy between Phelddagrif and Howling Mine?
...
Because they match the theme, even if there's no mechanical incentives going on.
I mostly agree with a lot of your above paragraphs but you are over simplifying a bunch just like me. Ruhan of the Fomori being a "type giant" is a mechanical incentivize to play him as the commander for Giant tribal. If you want to play UWR giant tribal, he's the only legendary giant of those colors. If your gameplan is playing large giants and beating face Ruhan of the Fomori is mechanically perfect for that. Similarly, if your gameplan is to lose the game in the lowest amount of turns as possible curving Howling Mine into Phelddagrif is mechanically perfect.

From what I can tell you seem to be viewing "mechanical incentivizes" as "how does this card push people to play the card in game/deckbuilding" but you're analyzing cards in the way the card should be utilized in game/deckbuilding to maximize win%. A lot of people don't do that.

Anyway, to bring things back. Just because Humble Defector mechanically incentivizes bad players to make bad deals doesn't mean the card is in itself bad. In fact if you're playing Humble Defector, analyzing your opponents' skill levels is also fairly important on who you give it to.
As I've said elsewhere, I think if people were always making intelligent decisions with defector it wouldn't annoy me so much, but I've frequently had people give him away to the most threatening player "because he hasn't had a turn yet" or some other nonsense justification.
If I had a nickel for every time I saw someone use dice to decide who to attack or to default attack the person with the most life.
I don't think it's nearly THAT disparate. Humble defector is drawing 2 per turn for multiple players as a 2-drop, that's pretty %$#%$#% efficient. A hell of a lot more efficient than divination. Sure it takes a turn to warm up, but once it's going, it's going pretty fast. For more casual decks, drawing 2 extra cards per turn might be easier to use than having one big glut of cards all at once (unless they're running reliquary tower or w/e).

Regardless, you said creating a bipolar game was an upside to the card. If creating a bipolar game is a positive thing, then why not be okay with trade secrets?
It literally is THAT disparate. The correct line with Trade Secrets is almost always to draw your whole deck and then try to immediately win through the other player who drew their whole deck while the other 2 people just kinda die. Trade Secrets almost certainly immediately loses the game for the other two people unless deck powerlevels are really really really low. Humble Defector is like on par with Secret Rendezvous. Humble Defector to Trade Secrets is like comparing Lotus Blossom to black lotus in power.
But control players are your friends :love:
I thought you we just being cute here, so I was being cute back.
I think it's worth separating cards that target, like Victory Chimes, from cards that don't, like Veteran Explorer. Politicking is possible with the former, but not nearly as much, if at all, with the latter.
I disagree heavily. It's just less about explicit verbal deals and more about managing board states while creating loose alliances.
Personally I find group hug to be annoying regardless of what archetype I built, for essentially this reason. I built my deck to work on its own. Having a consistent plan for CA is a big part of that. Someone else handing me stacks of cards for free renders all my CA plans pointless, invalidating a lot of what my deck wants to be doing. I don't enjoy that.
I find having to optimize my decks play lines while it is being flooded with excess resources I hadn't planned on having to be rather interesting. To each their own.
Game is complicated, I'm painting in very broad strokes.
I would suggest that I think you're being overly-influenced by your particular meta. The way you've described things playing out doesn't correspond to what I've seen. Certainly not to any great degree. It could play out that way under some circumstances, but I don't think there's a universal truth about group hug beating control being uncovered.
I think I tend to be pretty clear about what my meta is like and how that it is biasing me. Your meta is doing the same to you. Hence, the only way to guess about other metas is theory crafting. As several other people have mentioned, they also seem to think that control will probably lose more often if a group hug deck is at the table.
This definitely verges into theorycraft, but if I'm playing a wipe-happy control deck with a few dozen wipes in it, and you're giving me +3 cards every turn cycle, then I'm going to be averaging a wipe every turn, so unless my opponents are hitting with haste/indestructible/etc, I can hold them off indefinitely. Whereas if you weren't juicing me with CA I'd only be able to wipe every ~4 turns. So even though the other players aren't drawing as many creatures to play, the ones they do play at least get a chance to attack a couple times before getting exploded. And the more you boost everyone's CA, the more likely it becomes that the control player is able to wipe every turn. And then it doesn't matter how many creatures the other players are putting onto the battlefield.

And FWIW I have had games play out like this in the past to a subtler degree. I wanted to play a sneaky political control game, but I keep getting fed board wipes so WYGD?

Of course it won't always play out that cleanly - haste/indestructible/etc are a thing - but you can maybe see how group hugging could make the situation worse against the control player, rather than better.
Sure. I'm not saying that group hug is a hard counter to control. I'm just saying its a pretty bad matchup for control compared to glass cannon combo or a pile of midrange stuff.
Oh, I get wailed on too but usually there's someone more important to kill. Then, hopefully everyone is low enough to Comet Storm or something of that flavor before I die. It's a pretty fine line that definitely doesn't always pan out in my favor.
In the abstract, I don't see any good reason why a control player couldn't be that "there's someone more important to kill" player. I mean tbf that's kind the essence of my Phelddagrif build. Again I don't think there's a universal truth about group hug and control revealed, it's all a matter of the context of the game and who is the most threatening.
Control players tend to have the strongest end game. Hence, if left alive the longest their win % tends to go up the most. I'm aware I'm painting with broad strokes but this is so extremely board state / game-to-game dependent I don't know how to be any less vague.
I would think knowing that comet storm/insurrection/vicious shadows are in the deck would mean people are a lot more likely to go after you tbh. People tend to go after combo players in my experience, since otherwise they have too much opportunity to get set up. If everyone knows you could win the game from a single card, that could draw a lot of targeting ime.
It's weird to me that everyone keeps calling Insurrection a combo card and my deck a combo deck but w/e. Yurlok of Scorch Thrash's winconditions are completely based around opponents doing stuff, it can't set up a win for itself basically at all. It doesn't have remotely the same threat projection as a deck with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed/Triskelion.
Another player maybe being more threatening and maybe being perceived that way and maybe eating enough counterspells to give you a window (while you're feeding more counterspells to the counterspell player) is more reliable than an uncounterable card that just says "counterspells don't work on me"?

Okay...
That's like the entire game plan and point of your Phelddagrif deck isn't it?
Or chaos or chair tribal. I prefer to play strategies, not themes.
Ah, but pulling off a strategy while under a rigid theme constraint is just delightful. You're missing out, but we've been over that particular difference of opinion enough.
FWIW I do think your Yurlok deck is interesting and not a mindless theme-pile. But yours is by far the exception when talking about group hug.
I appreciate that. Last week, I played against my friend's Gluntch, the Bestower deck which is a mindless theme-pile from what I can tell. All he succeeded in was elaborately suicide by turn 5. I was playing my Changeling Tribal combo deck. He gave me treasures and I was like "You probably shouldn't be doing that." Then, I ate 3 removal spells and 2 counterspells trying to combo out before dying to a 17/17 Animar, Soul of Elements. Overall, a good time.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 weeks ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago
Humble Defector + Homeward Path BABEEEE!
This, but in Yasova Dragonclaw. One of the last times I played g, and what an interaction that was.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 weeks ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago

Edit: wait, they fixed the wording so you can't untap and re-activate yes man before the first ability resolves any more, boo!
https://scryfall.com/card/pip/29/yes-ma ... securitron

Why can't you? Activate, ability on the stack, retain priority, key/screwdriver our friendly neighborhood robot, activate again. Abilities exist independent of the source of the stack, first one resolves, gets it's quest counter and you draw, then second activation (which you control) resolves, you send it to someone, add it's counter and draw more cards.

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Post by Dunadain » 3 weeks ago

3drinks wrote:
3 weeks ago
Dunadain wrote:
3 weeks ago

Edit: wait, they fixed the wording so you can't untap and re-activate yes man before the first ability resolves any more, boo!
https://scryfall.com/card/pip/29/yes-ma ... securitron

Why can't you? Activate, ability on the stack, retain priority, key/screwdriver our friendly neighborhood robot, activate again. Abilities exist independent of the source of the stack, first one resolves, gets it's quest counter and you draw, then second activation (which you control) resolves, you send it to someone, add it's counter and draw more cards.
On Yes Man, it says "if they do, draw two cards"

You can certainly activate him again in response to the first activation, but you'll only draw cards for the most recent activation, as the other ones won't result in a change of control, and therefore won't result in you drawing cards.

@WizardMN can you correct me if I'm wrong?

Actually, now that I think about it, couldn't you target one opponent with the first activation and a different opponent with the second to get around this? Changing ownership doesn't result in the game "losing track" of an object, right?

Now I'm not so sure XD.
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