Do you think C19 is above and beyond?

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 97
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Post by Hermes_ » 1 week ago

now that all the cards have been spoiled, you feel as though Gavin followed through on his comments made in the following:
Commander 2018 is full of great learning lessons.

As the lead designer, I read through pretty much every thread on them and countless tweets. I read both praise and plenty of people calling for my head. (Including a Reddit thread which called for me to be fired—which I guess means I've finally made it as a designer.) Die the Commander hero with Battlebond, or live long enough to become the Commander villain, I suppose.

So, here's my perspective, having read a lot about it and thought on it for a while.

I think the new cards turned out great. And I have and continued to receive positive feedback on them. Yuriko, Xantcha, Arixmethes, Brudiclad, Windgrace . . . the list goes on. Yes, I should have made a couple more lands-matter cards for the Jund deck; that legendary Spider that everybody loved could have been a lands-matter guy. There are definitely tweaks I would make: every designer would about anything they make. But overall, I'm happy with the batch me and the team made for this year.

Where I fell down was on the reprints. It wasn't up to the level of what many of you expected, and numerous cards you were hoping would be there weren't. I've heard this loud and clear, trust me on that one. I apologize for that, and would do it differently if I could do it again.

Additionally, as a third factor, there was the MSRP raise from $34.99 to $39.99. This happened for sensible reasons, but unfortunately occurred after the set was already finished.

With all of this said, two pieces of important information.

First, the decks still did extraordinarily well. We've reprinted them multiple times and had them sell out each time, so clearly, people are still very excited and hungry for them. In fact, we're reprinting another batch to carry people through until the next Commander release hits; that's how popular these are.

Now, if you weren't happy with 2018's reprints, I could see how you might be concerned reading that. "Oh, great, it still worked and sold well, so we can expect the same for 2019."

Well, that's why secondly, I want to specifically say that we've taken the community's concerns to heart when designing the Commander release for this year. It's important to have a jolt now and then to reconsider some things, and as the product architect working on all Commander products, I really felt listening to this was important. I think you'll be happy with what you find in 2019's offering.
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

User avatar
DirkGently
Posts: 119
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Post by DirkGently » 1 week ago

In terms of reprints, I'd say better than last year but slightly worse than average? I think they really nailed it with a lot of the new card designs, though.

obligatory "but i don't personally give a crap about reprints whatsoever" disclaimer.
My decks actually on this site:
Phelddagrif

User avatar
TheAmericanSpirit
Posts: 11
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 week ago

"Above and beyond" feels a bit loaded as statements go, but I've always gotten the notion that Gavin does genuinely care about making cool products for us. Sure, he can't throw down four cEDH decks and scream "Print 'em or be damned!", but it seems like the design team really tried to make up for last year's laziness with C19, or at least as much as they feasibly could without upsetting the upper WOTC bureaucrats.

I feel this year's decks were balanced and diverse in the interests to which they respectively appeal. Are all four auto-purchases? Nope. Would I be happy strolling into any non-El Paso Walmart and picking up any one of them (sans Jeskai, not my thing personally) in two weeks for MSRP? Sure I would, and I couldn't say that in the last 2 years of commander-oriented products.

So no "To infinity or beyond", but certainly a fair margin above "not bad" is my evaluation.

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 296
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 week ago

C18 had a few inspired legends, but was largely a bust. I actually had to roll up the card list to check for non-legendaries. The loyal cycle sees a little play in my meta, but that's about it. Windgrace's Judgment is a card I expected to become a staple, but kind of faded away. I managed to forget they did a cycle of "commander storm" things.

C19 feels like a step in the right direction on the whole. The reprints have improved, but then you recall they were perfectly capable of tossing a then-20-dollar Wurmcoil Engine into a precon in 2014 and get sad. The new designs feel a lot more inspired, but none of them try to aim for the ubiquitous format staple prime time spotlight. The closest you get is Ohran Frostfang, but there's no denying it's no Teferi's Protection (the last commander product card I'd argue "makes it" in that category). And that's fine, one of the draws of EDH is the deck-specific utility. A bunch of the new cards support the themes nicely, and may find a bit of use outside of the constraints of the precon legends (Scroll of Fate).

User avatar
folding_music
Posts: 111
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: they / them
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Post by folding_music » 1 week ago

I think C19 is cool because generally the most powerful cards are not automatic includes in everyone's deck but rather reward particular designs. the madness precon is exactly my sort of thing and I think a lot of people underestimate how rewarding the ability is, even on cards that are unimpressive to the eye.

then again I feel like it'll take me years to actually internalize what all these cards do - it's always beyond me how people can say a set is "good" right after it's been spoiled, especially on the heels of several giant sets this year. The cards... there are too many of them. Ask me whether C19 was good again in 2029

edit: I remember people complaining about Lord Windgrace and Thantis in last year's release but those were the cards I found most exciting. I think I'm totally implacable in the face of hype waves and anti-hype waves cos it takes me so long to decide on these things.

Dunharrow
Posts: 58
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Montreal
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Post by Dunharrow » 1 week ago

No one deck has a ton more value than any other. I would have liked to see Thought Vessel reprinted, but I am happy Ash Barrens got a reprint.
I would have liked to see cyclonic rift or Phyrexian Arena or Toxic Deluge or another more commander-specific card.

But we did get Lightning Greaves which is nice. For others. I bought a lot of them when they were 4$.

Sharpened
Posts: 16
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Post by Sharpened » 1 week ago

"Above and Beyond"? No.

"Adequate"? Sure.

The decks look good and fun, which is the most important thing.
The new cards seem fine. The legends are interesting and there's potential for plenty of fun play with them. But there's not a lot of potential for cross format breakouts (cube, legacy), although I guess K'rrik has potential, but the wrong kind if you ask me. And there's nothing that screams Commander all-star either, like Teferi's Protection or some other past cards.
The reprints seem fine. I don't know about the specific values, but they seem plentiful and varied and interesting. There's just no showstoppers.

I wouldn't consider this product a letdown like last years was. I think they took what was said to heart and worked to give us a great product and gave us a good one.

User avatar
xeroxedfool
Posts: 51
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 18 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by xeroxedfool » 1 week ago

This set is exactly what I expected. They will never put a lot of value in these.
They're both Griffith, get it?

User avatar
Sinis
Posts: 128
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Post by Sinis » 1 week ago

Caveat: I don't generally complain about reprints from a personal perspective. I always buy all decks, and it's usually for the new non-general cards. I also have very realistic expectations about non-basic lands, fetches, Snapcaster, etc.; I would definitely rather avoid the problems of previous commander sets where powerful reprints or (a new card like Flusterstorm) makes one of the decks just kind of disappear from shelves. Reprints are usually gravy for me; I bought all my singles when we called it EDH and still dirt cheap. My opinions on it are usually centered on the idea that I play with a lot of people who are not so fortunate.

Definitely not "Above and Beyond". I can get behind some of them. Seedborn Muse? Great. Geth seems to be in short supply.

The dollar value just doesn't seem to be there, though. None of these cards were just 'a little too far' for players that I know; almost all the cards hover around the $5 range. I find players really balk at $10, and those are the kinds of reprints that we could realistically hope for.

But, more than that, some of the reprints are just god awful. Pristine Skywise? Pristine Angel? Boneyard Parley? Those are just awful. The first two; the flying pristine craw wurms.... what exactly are they going to do for the Jeskai spellslinger deck? After all the noise Gavin made about how they could have slotted in some obvious lands matter cards in the 2018 lands deck, they put those two dumpster fires in spellslinger? Good. Times. They could have easily included Metallurgic Summonings (and that's not high dollar value) or Pyromancer's Goggles or Past in Flames (shocking this was not included). But they included... those.

If you want to talk about a set where reprints were outlandishly good and we could never expect it again, talk about Commander 2013, which made some P3K legends, commons and uncommons available to all. Remember when Strategic Planning was a $60 card? Commander 2013 broke that. Even Borrowing 100,000 Arrows was a $20-30. Or Huo Toa, or Kongming, or Lu Xun. The non-P3K cards were also amazing (at the time); Avenger of Zendikar, Rampaging Baloths, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Azami, Karmic Guide, Baleful Strix, etc. Arguably, it was Commander 2013 that broke the prices on all of these cards.

If you want talk about reprints you could reasonably hope for, 2015. In 2015, Aura of Silence got reprinted, as did Black Market, High Market, Coldsteel Heart, Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, and Phyrexian Arena. Lots of great rares/mythics, but also very good/scarce uncommons.

For Commander 2019, I just don't see it. Yeah, many of the rares are $5. Most of the un/commons aren't there (Lockets over Signets, amirite?). Most of them are at least thematically there.
xeroxedfool wrote:
1 week ago
This set is exactly what I expected. They will never put a lot of value in these.
I think they did between 2013-2017. It really was just last year that didn't have any big draws; even 2017 had Mirari's Wake.

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 97
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Post by Hermes_ » 1 week ago

I'm gonna echo @cryogen 's comment on twitter :">
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

User avatar
benjameenbear
Posts: 258
Joined: 2 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 93 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by benjameenbear » 1 week ago

I think I agree @Sinis that this set was adequate but not 100% awesome. It's WAY better than recent Commander printings, but there are some obvious duds that got reprinted, which Sinis has pointed out.

While I'm thrilled at the printing of iconic characters from MTG's history, the surrounding cards seem to be 6/10. I remember when Wurmcoil Engine was printed in C14 and thinking "Wow, this is some REAL value".
Curator of the MTGNexus cEDH Forums
My Decklists
U [Primer] Memnarch
B [Primer] Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
wbr [Primer] Kaalia of the Vast
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Arisen

User avatar
Lifeless
Not here to contribute.
Posts: 20
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Lifeless » 1 week ago

For my money it's never going to get better than C14 - all the decks were valuable and played well right out of the box.

This year has been an improvement, particularly in design of many of the new cards. I think the value is there, but could still be improved. I consider this a step in the right direction.

User avatar
Sinis
Posts: 128
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Post by Sinis » 1 week ago

benjameenbear wrote:
1 week ago
While I'm thrilled at the printing of iconic characters from MTG's history, the surrounding cards seem to be 6/10. I remember when Wurmcoil Engine was printed in C14 and thinking "Wow, this is some REAL value".
2014 also had: Cyclonic Rift, Grave Titan, Adarkar Valkyrie (very scarce at the time), Goblin Welder, the whole Jet Medallion cycle, the first widely available Stroke of Genius reprint ever, and Sylvan Safekeeper.

It wasn't just Wurmcoil. There were some incredibly scarce (read: haven't been seen since tempest/urza's saga) and fairly high-dollar cards just being slotted in those decks. At the time, many of these cards were *impossible* to find, or were well over $10. 2014's precons could not have been better, realistically.

pokken
Posts: 293
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 96 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Post by pokken » 1 week ago

It's hot garbage.

User avatar
DirkGently
Posts: 119
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Post by DirkGently » 1 week ago

Sinis wrote:
1 week ago
It wasn't just Wurmcoil. There were some incredibly scarce (read: haven't been seen since tempest/urza's saga) and fairly high-dollar cards just being slotted in those decks. At the time, many of these cards were *impossible* to find, or were well over $10. 2014's precons could not have been better, realistically.
They also had by far the least popular commanders of any commander year.

Personally I'd much rather have exciting new cards than "exciting" reprints. I'd say 2014 was the worst year for precons imo, although 2017 was a strong contender.

There is no such thing as scarcity as long as cardmarket/tcgplayer/ebay exist. If you want it enough you can buy it.
My decks actually on this site:
Phelddagrif

RedCheese
Posts: 29
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by RedCheese » 1 week ago

HAAA HELL NO

Its only abit above last year, thats not saying mutch lol.

User avatar
Sinis
Posts: 128
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Post by Sinis » 1 week ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 week ago
They also had by far the least popular commanders of any commander year.
I would contend that it was because they were monocoloured. Honestly, I think it was a good bit of exploratory design work; these were the first Planeswalkers-as-commanders, and I can see they didn't want to make anything too broken (especially after C13, which had what felt like absurdly powerful commanders).

That said, I still see people play Daretti, Scrap Savant from time to time, and I think most of the people I know don't play Teferi, Temporal Archmage out of self-restraint, rather than it being lackluster. I've also seen Freyalise maindecked a few times.

RedCheese
Posts: 29
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by RedCheese » 1 week ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 week ago
Sinis wrote:
1 week ago
It wasn't just Wurmcoil. There were some incredibly scarce (read: haven't been seen since tempest/urza's saga) and fairly high-dollar cards just being slotted in those decks. At the time, many of these cards were *impossible* to find, or were well over $10. 2014's precons could not have been better, realistically.
They also had by far the least popular commanders of any commander year.

Personally I'd much rather have exciting new cards than "exciting" reprints. I'd say 2014 was the worst year for precons imo, although 2017 was a strong contender.

There is no such thing as scarcity as long as cardmarket/tcgplayer/ebay exist. If you want it enough you can buy it.
Least popualr commander doesn't mean it was connected to repritns, it jsut emant that mono colroed planewalkers wasn't a thing for alot of people. Why can't we get good reprints and interesting commanders? Yes scarcity exist, intentional ones that inflate prices of alot for card to unreal reasons. Sorry i rather have both exciting new cards and exciting reprints for this product.

Sharpened
Posts: 16
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Post by Sharpened » 1 week ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 week ago
Sinis wrote:
1 week ago
It wasn't just Wurmcoil. There were some incredibly scarce (read: haven't been seen since tempest/urza's saga) and fairly high-dollar cards just being slotted in those decks. At the time, many of these cards were *impossible* to find, or were well over $10. 2014's precons could not have been better, realistically.
They also had by far the least popular commanders of any commander year.

Personally I'd much rather have exciting new cards than "exciting" reprints. I'd say 2014 was the worst year for precons imo, although 2017 was a strong contender.

There is no such thing as scarcity as long as cardmarket/tcgplayer/ebay exist. If you want it enough you can buy it.
The lack of popularity of the 2014 Commanders has more to do with the unpopularity of monocolor decks. You have the 2nd most popular mono-red commander, top 5 for Green and Blue and just outside the top 5 for White (per EDHREC).

2014 also had some exceptionally exciting new cards, beyond the commanders:
Containment Priest
Scrap Mastery
Song of the Dryads
Titania, Protector of Argoth

2019 has Dockside Extortionist and very little else (Mire in Misery may or may not be worthwhile).

User avatar
Sinis
Posts: 128
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Post by Sinis » 1 week ago

Sharpened wrote:
1 week ago
2019 has Dockside Extortionist and very little else (Mire in Misery may or may not be worthwhile)
I really like Scroll of Fate, Ignite the Future, Gift of Doom and a few others. Leadership Vacuum and Sudden Substitution look interesting as well.

YMMV, of course.

Sharpened
Posts: 16
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Post by Sharpened » 1 week ago

Sinis wrote:
1 week ago
Sharpened wrote:
1 week ago
2019 has Dockside Extortionist and very little else (Mire in Misery may or may not be worthwhile)
I really like Scroll of Fate, Ignite the Future, Gift of Doom and a few others. Leadership Vacuum and Sudden Substitution look interesting as well.

YMMV, of course.
Sure, and my assessment was overly harsh. I tried to keep it cards that are both really solid and can show up in cubes or legacy. As I said in my earlier post, the set is "good" and there are cards that will be fun to play with.

It just reminds me of how Simon Cowell will describe a mediocre singer on America's Got Talent. Not that there's anything wrong with the singer, just that by the end of the night, you won't remember anything about them. Other Commander sets introduced staples, or reprinted things that were both surprising and exciting. C19 does little to "Wow" anyone.

User avatar
Lifeless
Not here to contribute.
Posts: 20
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Lifeless » 1 week ago

I'll reiterate that one of the reasons I think the C14 decks were so good is that beyond their monetary value they were actually playable. That's pretty important if we want the decks to be an entry point for the format.

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 296
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 week ago

These ones are playable too. I looked at the populate list, expecting there to be tons of immediately cuttable chaff, but I actually understand why the cards that are there are there. I rotated 2/3rds of the precon out in two gigantic swaps when I started tinkering with Daxos in 2015, the current list does not make me feel like I'll need to do that to get it operational. But yeah, C14 was a great year for setting the playability standard, with C16 hitting the peak of that. C19 looks like it's part of the same boat. And all of those were led by Ethan Fleischer. Just saying :P

User avatar
The N82O Molecule
Posts: 28
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: New Phyrexia
Been thanked: 6 times

Post by The N82O Molecule » 1 week ago

is this where soapbox can occur?

there is a article on daily mtg 08/09/19

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2019-08-09

and for the life of me all I read is excuses.

I agree with DirkGently above (thumbs up)

although I care about reprints in the sense I want reprints I don't already have six core sets worth of

User avatar
DirkGently
Posts: 119
Joined: 1 month ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Post by DirkGently » 1 week ago

RedCheese wrote:
1 week ago
Least popualr commander doesn't mean it was connected to repritns, it jsut emant that mono colroed planewalkers wasn't a thing for alot of people. Why can't we get good reprints and interesting commanders? Yes scarcity exist, intentional ones that inflate prices of alot for card to unreal reasons. Sorry i rather have both exciting new cards and exciting reprints for this product.
Name me a card I can't buy and have on my doorstep within a week. And don't come at me with that schichifukujin dragon or whatever.

Also I have no idea what "unreal reasons" would be. It's pretty simple: price = demand / supply. Idk why one card's value would be more unreal than another.

Why does it matter that they were monocolored? *wotc releases an entire year of homarid tribal commanders* "it just meant that homarid commanders wasn't a thing for a lot of people." (sorry, I mean "alot of people")
Sharpened wrote:
1 week ago
The lack of popularity of the 2014 Commanders has more to do with the unpopularity of monocolor decks. You have the 2nd most popular mono-red commander, top 5 for Green and Blue and just outside the top 5 for White (per EDHREC).

2014 also had some exceptionally exciting new cards, beyond the commanders:
Containment Priest
Scrap Mastery
Song of the Dryads
Titania, Protector of Argoth

2019 has Dockside Extortionist and very little else (Mire in Misery may or may not be worthwhile).
See above for snarky retort about mono-colored commanders. Being among the most popular mono-colored commanders doesn't keep the lights on at wizards of the coast - selling the most product does.

Can't say I've played any of those except song of the dryads in all the ~100 decks I've built (though I own all of them). I realize they're useful for certain decks, no question, but they aren't exactly general-purpose staples except for song. 2014 does do pretty well in terms of frequently-played cards, but their #1 with a bullet is command sphere - most likely because of getting reprinted a bazillion times.

I think leadership vacuum, ohran frostfang, sanctum of eternity, scaretiller, and sevinne's reclamation could all be plenty popular. But it's hard to compare the popularity of the two sets until this one is actually released, of course.

@Lifeless - I've played precons against "real decks" plenty. The 2011s are by far the worst - most of the rest are winnable.
My decks actually on this site:
Phelddagrif

Post Reply

Return to “Commander”