State of Legacy Thread

Yawgmoth
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Post by Yawgmoth » 10 months ago

Welcome to the State of Legacy Thread!

This is the unofficial place to discuss the latest about the greatest format in the history of Magic.

Legacy has no problems (FoW handles those on sight) but sometimes it's good to talk about the latest tech or the new trends as they occur. Sometimes it's even just nice to rehash long dead arguments...

In any case, I'd like to see if we can get a regular discussion going on here like we have on other formats.

I'll start.

I just started playing Legacy after playing Modern for 7yr. I love it. I think that with Modern getting squeezed by Pioneer, more people will start trying other(older) formats as well.

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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

Have played legacy for years. Fun format, the decks are powerful.. Dredge, Combo Elves, Tes and Ant, Reanimator... and so many more. I once owned a storm combo deck that could sometimes put an army from empty the warrens turn 1 on the draw. Also a zoo deck complete with duals. However, as time passed I had less and less people to play with. Until it was just four of us playing the format in our area. Everyone else plays Standard, Modern, or EDH. Then I realized the grass is greener in modern, cashed in all my valuable legacy cards... wasteland, karakas, taiga, savannah, plateau... and migrated to modern.
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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

Played Legacy a while, a very long while.
Great format, everything seems viable even if there are tiers, the lower end stuff can still win.
The paper format is very different to online, high costs stop most just picking up the best deck, as do people genuinely defining themsekves by their deck choices- the bonus of having so few high level events. It is all about prestige, not grinding to sone bigger event by people looking to go platinum or whatever, at least outside the US, so people are happy to rock up and not have the best deck, knowing they still have a great chance uf they play well.
My local Legacy scene has taken a hit, but that is mainly due to other new Legacy scenes being formed, we seem to be growing as a format if anything across my region.

Modern I like but can't honestly recommend, if that makes sense. I like it despite its many flaws.

Legacy cards gave held their value, Modern feels like it is suffering more than the usual December dip....time will tell.

I actually don't have as many issues with the pushed walkers as many do, but it is annoying to see so many of them and we do seem to suffer from too many additions that have a huge impact.

The key for me is to keep the format away from homegenised 4c decks l....

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Post by Yawgmoth » 10 months ago

After the past month of getting familiar with Legacy I have to say that I really enjoy the games a lot more than Modern despite the fact that I lose a lot more of them. My win/loss rate probably has to do with my unfamiliarity with the format, I hope that my enjoyment of the format is not also just due to the novelty. I play Rb Goblins across both formats. I don't plan on quitting Modern any time soon but it's definitely no longer my favorite format.

In comparison to Modern, Legacy games tend to be a bit longer and more swingy. I don't know who will win by turn 3 (unless I'm playing against ANT). I run a set of Wastelands and Ports which are probably some of the most fun magic cards to play with. Being able to attack someone's mana add an entirely new dimension to the game which I think is a good thing. I've tried to mimic the mana denial strategy in Modern but without Wasteland and Port it's not possible.

I could be wrong but I get the impression that Legacy players don't hope around between decks as frequently as other formats. This makes local meta gaming more interesting as I can plan on what to expect. I'm also much less afraid to buy into a deck (for goblins my big purchases were wastelands, badlands, caverns, and volraths stronghold). MtG is a hobby for me first and foremost. I don't have any problem budgeting for a hobby that I enjoy. I do have a problem with frequent bans which invalidate my purchases (my Mardu Pyromancer deck got hit pretty hard by the Looting ban). The volatility of the Modern secondary market is a huge knock against it. While dual lands may be pricey I don't expect them to change much in the near future which lets me enjoy the game a little more without having to worry about buying a brand new deck every 6 months.

As far as pushed planeswalkers go I can't say I've had as many issues with them as in Modern. For example I was playing against a 4c Delver deck that dropped a turn 3 Oko and I responded with a Red Elemental Blast. Having access to decent removal seems to make games less dependent on who lands their fatty first. However, I was not playing when Wrenn was legal so I can understand that PWs can warp the game. From what I can gather, Goblins (or at least Lackey) were virtually unplayable with Wren legal. Ironically I bought a set of Wrenns for Modern when they were $15 so the ban was a little painful as far as potential resale value but I would rather get to play a deck I enjoy (Goblins) than make some money on card resales.

I'll keep reporting my experiences as I journey through Legacy, I only hope I still enjoy it as much in 6 months as I do now! I'm doing some traveling for the holidays and I'm going to check out Knight Ware in LA, they seem to have a pretty poppin Legacy scene. Sure I'll probably lose most of my games but I'm at the point where all I see are opportunities for growth and development.

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

My gut feeling - astrolabe will eat a ban in 2020. Too many decks will be all good stuff- even miracles is main decking veil and running Broko.

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

Checking out the The week in Legacy column, astrolabe ban very much up for discussion.

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Post by motleyslayer » 9 months ago

did the wrenn and six ban affect the format much? I haven't played legacy in a while

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

Rug delver took a backseat. Technically elves, d n t etc. got better, but RUG being less good than UR dekver was the main change.

Oko is the new broko, miracles and snow control run him, they have veen on the rise.

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Post by Yawgmoth » 9 months ago

The W&6 ban also made Goblins playable again. Wrenn's 1 damage was back breaking against Lackey and the land recursion ability basically made Wastelands useless. Land disruption is pretty crucial for Goblins to turn the corner.

Unfortunately, the rise of Arcum's Astrolabe has led to the proliferation of 3-4 color piles which play mostly Snow-covered basic lands which similarly make Wastelands feel weak. That said, as a Goblins player, I'd rather face down a 4-color Snow Oko pile than anything packing Wrenn.

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Post by motleyslayer » 9 months ago

    drmarkb wrote:
    9 months ago
    Rug delver took a backseat. Technically elves, d n t etc. got better, but RUG being less good than UR dekver was the main change.

    Oko is the new broko, miracles and snow control run him, they have veen on the rise.
    I remember watching the SCG Player's Championship and Oko decks were everywhere. Makes me afraid to play Sneak and Show still

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    Post by wildfire393 » 9 months ago

    Pre W6 Ban: W6 was everywhere, being present in the best Delver deck (RUG Delver, which was a huge % of the metagame and basically forced all other Delver lists out), the best control deck (Czech Pile), and the best non-blue fair decks (Aggro Loam primarily). The only combo decks that could compete were blazingly fast ones that could survive being wasteland locked on turn three - Turbo Depths and Storm primarily.

    Post W6 Ban: Oko is now everywhere. It's present in one of the best Delver decks (RUG Delver), though the most popular variant (Izzet Delver) does not run it and there's more room for multiple delver lists. Both Czech-style and Miracles control lists are running Oko, generally with backup from Arcum's Astrolabe which fixes mana and turns into an Elk with Oko down. Death and Taxes has made a resurgence, and Aggro Loam has fallen considerably in popularity. Storm and Dark Depths are both still strong, and Show and Tell is still played a bunch though Oko is pretty strong against it.

    I'm going out on a limb and guessing that both Oko and Astrolabe are going to eat a ban this year.

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    Post by Yawgmoth » 9 months ago

    wildfire393 wrote:
    9 months ago
    I'm going out on a limb and guessing that both Oko and Astrolabe are going to eat a ban this year.
    Oko:

    I generally don't like bans as a solution but in the case of Oko it seems like a ban is warranted. The card is more than "a little broken," it's abilities/starting loyalty are simply too unbalanced to justify keeping it around. There is no reason to not stuff it into every deck possible which will lead to an unfun and warped meta.

    From my perspective as a goblins player, it takes matchups which I should be good at (like miracles) and makes it almost unwinnable. Unless I win by turn 3-4, the game grinds to a halt and it's a slow 20min death trading with elks until Im eventually overwhelmed. Aether Vial decks are particularly vulnerable because it takes a strength against control (the ability to dodge counter spells) and makes it worthless. In my mind, Aether Vial decks are "fair" and a format where fair decks can be moderately playable is a good thing.

    Astrolabe:

    I heard an interesting argument for not banning Astrolabe; it gives people the ability to play multiple colors in legacy without owning duals. It's worth considering when the barrier for entry in the format is so high (and rising).

    Without Oko, I don't think astrolabe is particularly egregious in Legacy (Modern might be a different story). I haven't seen any decks using astrolabe in a ban worthy way that did not involve it becoming an Elk.

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    Post by Yawgmoth » 9 months ago

    Oko was banned in Modern today, is Legacy going to be next?

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    Post by wildfire393 » 9 months ago

    The arguments I've heard against Astrolabe are this: it makes it too trivial to splash colors, without adding an appreciable weakness to cards that prey on decks that frivolously splash colors, like Wasteland and Blood Moon. You can play a Back to Basics Miracles list with Oko and still run Pyroblasts in your sideboard!

    It's definitely strongest in Oko lists because it lets you run him without sacrificing the rest of your strategy at all, and it's a cantrip that Oko can easily Elk when it's no longer required, but the fact that it means regular 4c lists that have a favorable matchup against Death and Taxes and the Red Prison lists is honestly bad for the meta overall.

    As far as Oko goes, given he's eaten a ban per format every month for the past three months, I think there's a decent chance he eats a ban in February. If he survives February, it will probably take closer to 6 months for him to get banned.

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    Post by Iso » 9 months ago

    I think Depths still beats out Oko decks in speed, based on personal experience. Oko decks tend to have more sustainability, but Depths doesn't care about that as long as it wins quickly enough.

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    Post by Yawgmoth » 9 months ago

    Iso wrote:
    9 months ago
    I think Depths still beats out Oko decks in speed, based on personal experience. Oko decks tend to have more sustainability, but Depths doesn't care about that as long as it wins quickly enough.
    I don't play Depths but that has also been my experience against Oko. If you can race them then you'll be okay. If they resolve Oko, ignore it completely unless you can kill it on the spot.

    The life gain and ability to pump out 3/3s is pretty hard to deal with long term when it is backed up by Legacy level protection.

    I've never won a game where Oko lives more than 2 turns. But if I can get under them they I usually win because they've wasted all their energy trying to cast or protect it.

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    Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

    Oko, I think will survive. The fact he makes matches different to what they were, like Goblins referenced above, won't concern wotc. They don't care about such decks in Modern, let alone Legacy. Bottom line is the format has lots of combos that ignore it, some delver decks that are good against it, and d n t always has a shot.

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    Post by motleyslayer » 8 months ago

    I can't see Oko being banned in legacy because there are so many decks that just don't care about it at all or they can just go under it

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    Post by Yawgmoth » 8 months ago

    Looking back at my previous statement I think I may have been overly reactive. Oko caught me off guard and left me salty. In retrospect I have developed strategies to deal with Oko decks. I think we have all identified that ignoring Oko is lot only possible but also likely the best course of action.

    There are plenty of matchups that are theoretically worse for goblins than Oko snow piles which I am still capable of winning so this just requires careful planning.

    I am a new Legacy player so I am still adjusting to the format. I did not experience Wrenn & Six's domination of the format so I may lack perspective. I assumed that Legacy was universally ill-equipped to handle the over-powered planeswalkers of 2019 much like the other formats.

    While I think Legacy can adapt to Oko, I still think that the problems with the card are a product of an error in the design process rather than some unexpected interaction. This alone makes the card ban worthy. Imagine if a card was printed with a typo which reduced the mana cost. This obvious mistake could warrant a ban even if it wasn't otherwise problematic.

    However, if they keep printing planeswalkers at this power level then there will need to be some sort of corrective action. No format is equipped to handle OP planeswalkers because they are relatively new as a permanent type. For example, no matter how broken a creature is, Legacy has removal to handle it; planeswalkers are not the same.

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    Post by schweinefett » 8 months ago

    In response to yawgmoth:
    Welcome to legacy!
    I'll let you in on a 'secret'; legacy is the best format out there partly because it has answers for everything. When W6 was around, i actually ran 6 blue blasts in my mono blue painter list (it's a bad idea, but still a romp to play). And now that oko's around, i've gone back to Rx, and bumped my red blast count from 6 to 7 main, and with 4 dreadhorde arcanist for good measure.

    Most of the time, big shakeups in legacy because of new printings take a while to settle. It was just the sheer quantity of format warping printings that made legacy un-fun for a while. But i think it's still leagues better than other constructed formats because of its diversity, and potential answers.

    you know, the last pox list i saw ran 2 elder spell in the main. PW removal is def a thing.

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    Post by Yawgmoth » 8 months ago

    @schweinefett thanks!

    I've definitely gotten hooked on Legacy. It has quickly become my favorite format and I find myself enjoying it even more as I learn both my deck and the meta (rather than getting tired/bored). Most of my losses can be mitigated by better planning and list tinkering. Maybe I'll get bored but it seems like the format rewards experience and is less likely to have an obvious tier 0 deck. There's just too many good responses available for any one strategy to become too stifling

    That said, this new Thassa's Oracle /Brainfreeze
    /Underworld Breach deck is horrible and I hope it goes away soon. I suppose it is no worse than storm but I played 3 rounds of magic at my LGS and all three games were against Thassa decks. Two of the decks went all in on the combo with Grinding Station as a back up win con. The third played Thassa in a BUG Oko control shell with an infinite draw combo using Worldgorger, Astrolabe, and some reanimating enchantment. The third one was the worst because the cost of including the combo was so low. Essentially it played as BUG Oko that just accidentally comboed off.

    Proper sideboarding by me will help manage this problem in the future but I'm sure these decks will also adapt as well. Playing three rounds of magic against essentially the same one card is not super fun... challenge accepted.

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    Post by Yawgmoth » 8 months ago

    To be clear, I'm not saying that we need to ban Breach/Oracle, I just hope people get over the excitement so that my local meta can return to a more diverse and fun place.

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    Post by Iso » 8 months ago

    I feel like Thassa's Oracle is a better win con for Oops, All Spells!. I had a feeling that Underworld Breach was going to be absurd in Legacy as soon as I saw that it was being printed.

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    Post by drmarkb » 8 months ago

    It is obviously nuts, but there are tools, which we can find unlike Modern, and which have applications across the format. Due to dredge and UR, UB, and mono B reanimator plus Storm and loam, the number of bin abusing decks is huge. The number of decks wishing to do multiple things in a turn is big too, so our decks tend to reflect this.

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    Post by motleyslayer » 8 months ago

    underworld breach was one of those cards that legacy players just knew was gonna be broken. The format just seems like various combo decks like it, tes and ant right now but I haven't played a paper event in a while

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