Legacy traffic a bit low?

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Seemingly not many joining us here for Legacy chat.....
Looking at the other section Modern seems high on traffic whilst everything else seems low.
I think Legacy is in the best place it has been for ages, Narset upset a few people- those who want to play with Brainstorm and minimal removal-whilst Karn gave everyone else a huge shot in the arm and more flexibility, both of which are positives. I think Legacy is more open now than it has been, all the tiers seem more mixed up, just a shame that there are not more people here to enjoy it.

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Post by wildfire393 » 1 year ago

I agree that the Legacy traffic is low. I'm working - slowly - on establishing primers for the most played decks, which should hopefully get us more traffic.

Ultimately though, traffic begets traffic. If you post about Legacy, more people will most in reply.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Fair play.
I own a lot of Legacy decks, but by and large would only be comfortable in primers for decks I know intimately, rather than ones just I own or have played for a change. Ideally people will come forward who are enthusiasts of some of the most played decks. From the less well known decks I could probably add one or two like Enchantress, Solider stompy, UW RIP/Helm etc., and I own and have played a fair bit of Mono Red Prison and D n T- the problem being I don't especially like either deck.
I guess we suffer in that MTGS had a large Modern community but the MTGS Legacy community had dissolved into the aether the previous few years- hardly surprising when the majority of the posts were in developing were like the one I replied to yesterday on MTGS, where a "knight deck" was posted with zero interaction beyond 1cc sword/path. Add this to the fact that we lost active primers and there were top decks in developing and there was no Legacy community to import from MTGS.
The Source, of course, exists, but it too has lost people to the discord servers. Still I will try to post as often as possible to try and generate a bit. Who knows, maybe the Modern players might migrate here over time if they want to play Hoogy delve shenanigans.....

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Post by Iso » 1 year ago

I've played a good number of the more viable decks in Legacy, and have seen even more played. I haven't been playing the format for even 2 years, but a lot has certainly changed in that time. I feel like I may have invested in the wrong decks, which is disheartening, but I'm trying to find my niche and work out from there. I did amazingly at a 2k with Sneak & Breach just after the Probe + DRS bans, but the deck hasn't been holding up since the meta regained its foothold. I'll be doing more testing.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

If you are in Legacy, even if your deck is not very good, or you do not like it, you have never invested poorly- because 90% of the money cards in Legacy are not losing value, and they are among the most liquid of Mtg assets. You can swap from deck A to B and not have to spend net cash. My advice to newer players is often Sneak and Show- it is one of the easier Brainstorm decks to play, comes in a couple of variants, and you have the basic shell for UR delver, so if you are prepared to swap cards over you get a couple of decks that work well, often peaking in different environs.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Don't have any of the original duals anymore, since I sold them years ago.

But still willing to play legacy just for fun, even if my budget deck would get totally trounced on. :P
The real problem is, no one in my playgroup wants to invest in legacy anymore. Everyone here plays mostly modern, standard, edh, and sometimes there are pauper players asking me to join in on their group.
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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I feel that legacy isn't as popular as other formats but I feel the problem with this section is that we don't seem to get conversation starters

I love legacy but don't get to play as much as I'd like

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Soldier stompy is a budget Legacy deck, and it is solid, as is burn- cheaper than Modern burn by a mile, manaless Dredge and small Eldrazi too. The format has cheap decks- people buy into the myth of it being a t2 format or it bring about 1000 dollar cards. It is true that it is hard to play Pox without Chains or Lands without Taby, but for most of the more well known decks it is not the case that megabucks are needed. Also, as my last fnm breakdown showed, all the Miracles and Brainstorm decks in general had a tough time, I think one brainstorm deck in the top 8, unusual perhaps but in Europe we like our Depths, D n T, Pox, Lands etc. It is a Brainstorm format, but it is common to see Chalice decks eating on them....

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

if ever there would be a legacy tourney in my area. I plan to use the bg delirium deck that I use in modern. The deck has goyf and grim flayer as win cons. The discard should allow me to have a small chance against the combo decks, Collector ouphe from the sideboard also feels like it would be useful against the artifact using decks. I just hope legacy is not as saturated with gy removal like modern was during the Hogaak era. It's so hard to get delirium when so many people had maindeck gy removal.
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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Soldier stompy is a budget Legacy deck, and it is solid, as is burn- cheaper than Modern burn by a mile, manaless Dredge and small Eldrazi too. The format has cheap decks- people buy into the myth of it being a t2 format or it bring about 1000 dollar cards. It is true that it is hard to play Pox without Chains or Lands without Taby, but for most of the more well known decks it is not the case that megabucks are needed. Also, as my last fnm breakdown showed, all the Miracles and Brainstorm decks in general had a tough time, I think one brainstorm deck in the top 8, unusual perhaps but in Europe we like our Depths, D n T, Pox, Lands etc. It is a Brainstorm format, but it is common to see Chalice decks eating on them....
I feel that legacy has been slower and more interactive than modern for maybe a year or so. Sure you can do more busted things but there's more checks in the format such as force of will and whatnot

There's a store less than an hour away that fires legacy on a regular basis but I haven't been able to get time off on weekends much past few months so I don't get to play anything as much as I want. I also live close enough to Face to Face Games if I ever wanted to play a Legacy Sunday Showdown

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Yes indeed. You can play such a variety of decks. You can brew too, I have been munching on well known archetypes with old fashioned mono Brown Stax (with Karn) and Mono black helm pox (Pox without the small pox, with Karn) for a few months since Karn. Before that I was on RIP/Helm UW with a bit of spice. Respect the conventions and combos and there is a bit of room for brewing.
Look at Depths- one title but how many variants? GW? Medium depths? Hogaak depths, turbo depths etc. As long as you respect the format there is always a twist here or there.
Incidentally, my dream for a few years is to get a competitive Stasis list, but the better it gets the more it turns into a superfriends Jace/Teferi Brainstorm deck with a couple of As Foretold combos, and Stasis/Tabernacle. One day.......

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Post by wildfire393 » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
if ever there would be a legacy tourney in my area. I plan to use the bg delirium deck that I use in modern. The deck has goyf and grim flayer as win cons. The discard should allow me to have a small chance against the combo decks, Collector ouphe from the sideboard also feels like it would be useful against the artifact using decks. I just hope legacy is not as saturated with gy removal like modern was during the Hogaak era. It's so hard to get delirium when so many people had maindeck gy removal.
There are very few decks running extensive maindeck graveyard removal since Deathrite Shaman was banned. There's the occasional Helm of Obedience combo deck packing maindeck Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void, but those are few and far between and definitely fringe. Green Sun's Zenith decks like Aggro Loam, Nic Fit, Jund, Elves, Maverick, etc tend to pack a singleton Scavenging Ooze, and Crop Rotation/Knight of the Reliquary decks like Lands, Turbo Depths, Aggro Loam, and Maverick generally run a one-of Bojuka Bog. Karn, the Great Creator decks like Bomberman, Painter, Eldrazi Stompy, and MUD can Karn-wish for a Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt.

The top decks (Delver of all varieties, Stoneblade, Miracles, Grixis Control, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Storm) other than Turbo Depths don't tend to pack any maindeck graveyard hate.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

thanks for that plenty of info. I guess legacy isn't very hostile to gy strategies these days.
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Post by DanzBorin » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Soldier stompy is a budget Legacy deck, and it is solid, as is burn- cheaper than Modern burn by a mile, manaless Dredge and small Eldrazi too. The format has cheap decks- people buy into the myth of it being a t2 format or it bring about 1000 dollar cards. It is true that it is hard to play Pox without Chains or Lands without Taby, but for most of the more well known decks it is not the case that megabucks are needed. Also, as my last fnm breakdown showed, all the Miracles and Brainstorm decks in general had a tough time, I think one brainstorm deck in the top 8, unusual perhaps but in Europe we like our Depths, D n T, Pox, Lands etc. It is a Brainstorm format, but it is common to see Chalice decks eating on them....
Too much Miracles out there for Soldier Stompy to compete. I know because I play that deck. That deck wants to go fairly wide, hard to play around Terminus.

I've found it's a fun deck and at the right time can be good. It just isn't going to be consistent. Luckily City prices have come down, but they are still not cheap.

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Post by wildfire393 » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
thanks for that plenty of info. I guess legacy isn't very hostile to gy strategies these days.
It isn't overly *maindeck* hostile to graveyard strategies, but most decks will pack some form of graveyard hate in the sideboard. Surgical Extraction is the most-played Sideboard card, appearing in almost 60% of all decks on MTGTop8 at an average of 2 copies per deck. Leyline of the Void is the #9 most-played Sideboard card in about 15% of all decks at 4 copies. Tormod's Crypt is #10 and similarly in 15% of decks at about a copy and a half. Containment Priest and Grafdigger's Cage are both in the top 20, and Faerie Macabre and Nihil Spellbomb are in the top 40. I would reckon that upwards of 90% of decks run some form of graveyard hate in the side, probably 3-4 pieces in total.

So you can mostly depend on being able to execute your graveyard strategy game one, but definitely expect some hate games two and three.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

DanzBorin wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Soldier stompy is a budget Legacy deck, and it is solid, as is burn- cheaper than Modern burn by a mile, manaless Dredge and small Eldrazi too. The format has cheap decks- people buy into the myth of it being a t2 format or it bring about 1000 dollar cards. It is true that it is hard to play Pox without Chains or Lands without Taby, but for most of the more well known decks it is not the case that megabucks are needed. Also, as my last fnm breakdown showed, all the Miracles and Brainstorm decks in general had a tough time, I think one brainstorm deck in the top 8, unusual perhaps but in Europe we like our Depths, D n T, Pox, Lands etc. It is a Brainstorm format, but it is common to see Chalice decks eating on them....
Too much Miracles out there for Soldier Stompy to compete. I know because I play that deck. That deck wants to go fairly wide, hard to play around Terminus.

I've found it's a fun deck and at the right time can be good. It just isn't going to be consistent. Luckily City prices have come down, but they are still not cheap.
SS is a very unrefined deck- there are loads of versions, but nothing like an accepted list as it is rare and always people's fourth choice "play it once in a while "deck (not that it might be with yours). I don't use Cities (and not through cost- I own twenty of them), just Chrome Mox and Tomb and a tighter curve with more hatebears. Still a Chalice/big and small Thalia deck, of course. Some people use the Preeminents and 6 mana go wide package, some don't and just big up on hatebears, recruiting guys and hate. Last time I played the deck a lot was a year ago, - it didn't lose to Miracles as it was back then- but then again I played Sanctum Prelate and Armageddon main too (with more in the side), both of which were good in the miracles match, certainly a lot better than Preeminent captain. The deck I found most difficult was D n T- which I don't think I ever beat. I guess that was because my meta had a lot of Pile/Miracles and not much DnT and I built for it that way.Interesting that different people get different results with nominally the same deck. I found the post board games -with the S Fields, extra Geddons and Chalice plus Trinisphere (or W orb, sometimes) were memorable one way or the other. Main deck it was a less fun deck to play.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

wildfire393 wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
thanks for that plenty of info. I guess legacy isn't very hostile to gy strategies these days.
So you can mostly depend on being able to execute your graveyard strategy game one, but definitely expect some hate games two and three.
again, thanks for the tip. Won't be playing very competitively anyway, as I don't have a proper legacy deck anymore. Sold all original duals in 2017. Only have my modern decks to use if ever a legacy tourney appears nearby.

And just realized that faithless looting is not banned here, so my Mardu Mancer deck is alive.. though a modern deck probably only has a small chance against the stronger decks in legacy.
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Post by wildfire393 » 1 year ago

Mardu Pyromancer is probably a reasonable tier 2.5/3 list. Run a bit more targeted discard like Cabal Therapy and swap and Paths for Swords to Plowshares. You should have a decent game against fair decks, and the current top unfair decks are a bit soft to Swords so it works out well.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

hmm, nice idea. I do have 3 stp and 3 cabal therapy in the shelf of my room. Will test them in mardu mancer if there would be some legacy here. They were unused for years. The cabal therapy were previously used by The Gate, and the plowshares by my now defunct legacy zoo deck.
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Post by Iso » 1 year ago

I've been trying to brew a mono-B Hate deck - just a bunch of removal, discard, and disruption. I've had middling success, so far, but am struggling to finalize a build, partially because I have so many options, and partially because I play so many different decks that I try to use.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

wildfire393 wrote:
1 year ago
Mardu Pyromancer is probably a reasonable tier 2.5/3 list. Run a bit more targeted discard like Cabal Therapy and swap and Paths for Swords to Plowshares. You should have a decent game against fair decks, and the current top unfair decks are a bit soft to Swords so it works out well.
the interaction between cabal therapy and young pyromancer is one I really like

also we might be able to grow legacy in my area as there should be enough decks to lend out so hopefully we can get events going

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Post by SrStompy » 1 year ago

It's been a few years since I've been active on the forums, and I've noticed some changes, not necessarily in the forums, but outside of it. I almost exclusively play legacy as I find my ability to play varies year by year. Luckily legacy decks tend to stay viable and competitive for longer. Even with the introduction of new decks or even warping cards. Things like delver, landstill/miracles, storm, lands, sneak and show, DnT are still putting up results and have core lists that remain relatively unchanged. It's a fun diverse metagame at the moment, and I love it. Because these decks have staying power, some of them have more dedicated websites, and tools that to me oftentimes organize information, not only for new pilots, but those that have been around for awhile, and do so in way's a single thread cannot. I would speculate, formats like modern and standard have a few perks towards content generation. They are more affordable, the player base tends to be a bit younger, and they are much more volatile when new sets are released.

I don't wish to plug other sites. But some decks/archetypes have dedicated websites which really offer some incredible benefits in organization. Having sections and links for various aspects of a deck. Magic is extremely complicated, and learning and facilitating new discussion is hard, especially with established decks. Having quick links to sideboard guides, matchup analysis, and new articles/podcasts, is really tough to compete with and awesome from a pilot perspective. I think primers cover a lot, and are great for people new to the deck. But forums, or really threads, face problems when new like this (lack of content) or older (too much content). It becomes difficult to find answers to questions and ultimately it seems threads are consumed of people discussing already covered ideas. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of new good tools on this site. The hand generator in deck tags, as with the CMC analysis, and quick links to pricing. Wish we had that forever ago. But I still think the layout of general content is prohibitive to long standing decks with a more dedicated following.

For me personally, since graduating college and joining the working world, I lack a group to playtest with. So when I put down money for a tournament I tend to stick to the more tried and true, or what I'm familiar with. Even with access to MTGO, because each league is potentially money, I find i'm less innovative than my past self.

I guess the big question is, what does a forum like this offer, or what is unique about it that really differentiates it? Or what do we want the discussions to look like. I know i use to feel a sense of camaraderie with some of the more active members under certain decks. How do we build that community? Are there tools and mechanisms to facilitate play testing and innovation that don't cost money outside of possibly acquiring some cards.

Some real thoughts and struggles. There are still plenty of people playing legacy. I joined the 198 person MTGO legacy playoff event last Sunday. Even if it's online, there's room to discuss, play, and improve, that isn't nearly as cost prohibitive.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Iso wrote:
1 year ago
I've been trying to brew a mono-B Hate deck - just a bunch of removal, discard, and disruption. I've had middling success, so far, but am struggling to finalize a build, partially because I have so many options, and partially because I play so many different decks that I try to use.
I use mono-b helm pox- which dopes not actually run Pox or Smallpox- might be up your alley- check the variants out on the Pox primer- at the very least there is some tech there.
I get excellent blue matches, and unlike regular Pox I get a combo kill that has to be respected- Karn in particular offers much to mono B.
I would say there is no deck that can win by "just hate"- you have to seal the deal or end the game. Even Pox itself has speeded up its wincons since the old days- Lilly TLH is a faster clock than just Nether Spirit and Mishras. Some Pox and Stax lists have diversified to include all sorts of combos, because decks are so resilient you need the "I win" factor at some point, even if it is turn 30.........

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Iso wrote:
1 year ago
I've been trying to brew a mono-B Hate deck - just a bunch of removal, discard, and disruption. I've had middling success, so far, but am struggling to finalize a build, partially because I have so many options, and partially because I play so many different decks that I try to use.
I use mono-b helm pox- which dopes not actually run Pox (of course) or Smallpox- might be up your alley- check the variants out on the Pox primer- at the very least there is some tech there.
I get excellent blue matches, and unlike regular Pox I get a combo kill that has to be respected- Karn in particular offers much to mono B, as do the plethora of new-ish lands like Sea-Gate Wreckage and Sanitarium.
I would say there is no deck that can win by "just hate"- you have to seal the deal or end the game. Even Pox itself has speeded up its wincons since the old days- Lilly TLH is a faster clock than just Nether Spirit and Mishras. Some Pox and Stax lists have diversified to include all sorts of combos, because decks are so resilient you need the "I win" factor at some point, even if it is turn 30.

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