[M21] Angelic Ascension, a little too pushed?

[Atraxian]

The card Angelic Ascension has already been added to the M21 spoilers on this site, but saw no thread discussing it.

Reading the card the first time I thought that it looked like a weaker version of Generous Gift / Beast Within as it only hits creatures and planeswalkers and a 4/4 flier is much more difficult to handle than a grounded 3/3...

Then I realized I was looking at it the wrong way...

This is mainly a T2 4/4 flying beater or an almost counterspell to spot removal.
Thinking of the card like this makes it look much more powerful for an uncommon in white.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think it will be worth playing or even just toying around with?

[pierreb]

There was a similar spell in blue a few core set back that animated artifacts. You're setting yourself to be 2-for-1 if they remove the angel, but the upside and beat is real in limited if they can't remove it fast enough. People specifically drafted it back in the days, so yes, it will be annoying in limited.

Edit: ensoul artifact

[Outcryqq]

There was a similar spell in blue a few core set back that animated artifacts. You're setting yourself to be 2-for-1 if they remove the angel, but the upside and beat is real in limited if they can't remove it fast enough. People specifically drafted it back in the days, so yes, it will be annoying in limited.

Edit: ensoul artifact

I don't understand how you're 2-for-1'ing yourself if they remove the angel. The idea is that you have a creature, opponent uses removal on it, in response you use this card. Result: your creature exiled, you have an angel now. If they remove the angel, they've used 2 removal spells, and you're at 2-for-2.

[Mookie]

Hour of Need was printed back in original Theros block, and saw zero competitive play. It was a strong card in limited, but that was largely due to Strive letting you turn your entire board into sphinxes in the lategame. Angelic Ascension does cost a mana less, and is in different colors, and this is a different format... but it's still a reasonable comparison.

In general, I don't have high expectations for Angelic Ascension. Best case scenario, you use it in response to removal to cash in a creature for an angel, which makes it a fancy Feat of Resistance. Alternatively, you play an expendable creature T1, use Ascension T2, and beat down with a reasonably-sized flyer... at the cost of 3 mana and 2 cards, and hoping your opponent never has removal.

If Parallel Lives gets reprinted, then I may be concerned. But otherwise, the card seems meh.

[The Fluff]

this reminds me a bit of beast within that is limited to creature and walker. It's 2 cmc, making it easy to use.

will get a playset if it's low priced enough. Don't need it right now, but later might have a deck that would want it.

[Krishnath]

It's going to see play as a removal spell in commander. I don't know about anybody else, but I'd rather deal with a 4/4 flier than a Blightsteel Colossus coming my way.

[gilrad]

It'll be a good removal spell for commander circles that care about incremental combat damage. Removing a non-combat utility dude like Oracle of Mul Daya and replacing it with 4 damage per round is a pretty good deal as long as you're not the easiest target to attack.

[BeneTleilax]

why not give white a polymorph that can planeswalkers color is a joke now anyway

[Atraxian]

True that if you blindly go for the T2 angel beater you run the risk of a 2for1 and the comparison with Hour of Need is spot on.
This might not be playable in competitive standard, but at least its uses can be diverse enough to warrant a try

[DirkGently]

To me it looks well-balanced for limited play. Usually you'll use it on yourself, but I'd sure rather fight an angel than an Elder Gargaroth.

While it might end some games (relatively) quickly by hitting a 1-drop, you'd need to have a decent number of 1-drops to pull that off, and if they have timely removal (especially bounce) you get pretty owned.

As far as "protecting" your own stuff while upgrading it, cards that do that (i.e. Teferi's Time Twist) are usually kinda niche. I think this does enough different things that it'll just be a reasonable playable.

[Wallycaine]

There was a similar spell in blue a few core set back that animated artifacts. You're setting yourself to be 2-for-1 if they remove the angel, but the upside and beat is real in limited if they can't remove it fast enough. People specifically drafted it back in the days, so yes, it will be annoying in limited.

Edit: ensoul artifact

I don't understand how you're 2-for-1'ing yourself if they remove the angel. The idea is that you have a creature, opponent uses removal on it, in response you use this card. Result: your creature exiled, you have an angel now. If they remove the angel, they've used 2 removal spells, and you're at 2-for-2.

While that's the ideal case, that means holding up 2 mana turn after turn in the hopes that they point a removal spell at something. And if they don't, you're left with the choice of going for it anyways, and thus setting up for the 2-for-1, or continuing to let it rot in your hand, and slow down your whole game plan to keep holding up 2 mana.

[Outcryqq]

While that's the ideal case, that means holding up 2 mana turn after turn in the hopes that they point a removal spell at something. And if they don't, you're left with the choice of going for it anyways, and thus setting up for the 2-for-1, or continuing to let it rot in your hand, and slow down your whole game plan to keep holding up 2 mana.

But that's not what he said. He said if they remove the angel. That presumes your spell resolved.

[Wallycaine]

While that's the ideal case, that means holding up 2 mana turn after turn in the hopes that they point a removal spell at something. And if they don't, you're left with the choice of going for it anyways, and thus setting up for the 2-for-1, or continuing to let it rot in your hand, and slow down your whole game plan to keep holding up 2 mana.

But that's not what he said. He said if they remove the angel. That presumes your spell resolved.

But in order for it to not be a 2 for 1, your opponents need to have already tried to remove something of yours, and you needed to have mana available at that time to angel it in response. Which is the situation I was describing. If you cast it without that condition being true, just to upgrade a random dork into a angel, then you get 2 for 1'd when someone kills the angel.

[Outcryqq]

But in order for it to not be a 2 for 1, your opponents need to have already tried to remove something of yours, and you needed to have mana available at that time to angel it in response. Which is the situation I was describing. If you cast it without that condition being true, just to upgrade a random dork into a angel, then you get 2 for 1'd when someone kills the angel.

Unless I'm missing something, the situation you're describing is a 2-for-2: your two cards (dork, ascension) and their two cards (first removal that you responded to with ascension, second removal to kill angel). Unless they're killing your angel with thoughts and prayers?

[Hawk]

Historically, effects like this have been borderline unplayable in most formats (see: Talara's Battalion, Phylactery Lich, Demon of Catastrophes, everything with Champion eg Wren's Run Packmaster). Ensoul Artifact is probably the closest comparison and even then, it was largely a card in Tier 2 decks and largely supported by the existence of Ornithopter and Darksteel Citadel to greatly supercharge it.

On the one hand, controlling a creature is a much steeper ask than controlling an artifact. But, I think you're right this card is insane because this card has something none of the rest did...

It's an instant.

That means that, after chumping or in response to removal, you just turn stuff into a 4/4 Flyer.

In other words, this is a 4/4 Flying, Flash for 1W with "when this EtB, exile a creature or planeswalker you control" - a niche card, but a very strong, very scary one. By itself, that reminds me a lot of Serra Avenger in terms of its play-structure; this is not an "aggro" card, but a powerful midrange/tempo card that comes out turn 3 or 4 or 5 for huge value. When I mentioned Champion earlier, I left out the key real comparison - Mistbind Clique, a card that terrorized Standard by being a huge, above-rate threat that could generate insane tempo.

I think this sort of "Avenger 2.0" would see a ton of standard play with a bit of fringe applicability at Pioneer and Modern alone, but wait - there's more! This card can also be removal - in case of emergency, please break permanent into an angel. That versatility will rarely come up in Standard and Pioneer, but when it does is what will put this over the edge - I'm sure many decks would rather fight a 4/4 angel than a Karn Liberated in Modern, for example. I think that's what will make this an instant EDH-staple (at least in decks that have White but not Black) and really carry the day for it in Modern and even Legacy.

[Atraxian]

Mistbind Clique has the upside of not being a 2-for-1 as it gives you back your initial creature and is in a color that thrives on instant speed spells, tho.
EDIT: oh, almost literally makes your opponent skip a turn if played during their upkeep.
This said, Angelic Ascension costs 2 less and has extra utility to it.

[pierreb]

Unless I'm missing something, the situation you're describing is a 2-for-2: your two cards (dork, ascension) and their two cards (first removal that you responded to with ascension, second removal to kill angel). Unless they're killing your angel with thoughts and prayers?

LOL. okay, if you need to win the argument we can give you the "you won the argument award". Put it on your mantle.

People have explained very clearly that not every opponent will conveniently aim removal into your open mana to remove an insignificant dork. So, there you go, you get parity against bad players, you set yourself up to keeping mana indefinitely up or risk a 2-for-1 against good ones.

[Wallycaine]

But in order for it to not be a 2 for 1, your opponents need to have already tried to remove something of yours, and you needed to have mana available at that time to angel it in response. Which is the situation I was describing. If you cast it without that condition being true, just to upgrade a random dork into a angel, then you get 2 for 1'd when someone kills the angel.

Unless I'm missing something, the situation you're describing is a 2-for-2: your two cards (dork, ascension) and their two cards (first removal that you responded to with ascension, second removal to kill angel). Unless they're killing your angel with thoughts and prayers?

You're missing that the opponent won't always give you a removal spell to respond to. To go to the extreme, if the opponent never, ever casts a removal spell when you have two open mana, then what? Are you just going to let the spell rot in your hand? Are you going to tap out, only to get hit with the removal while your shields are down? Or are you going to cast it anyways, and thus... open yourself up to a 2 for 1?

[motleyslayer]

This is a really interesting spell, even in standard and pioneer. Dealing with a 4/4 flying token is probably a lot easier than some creatures and planeswalkers