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Post by Dreaden » 4 years ago

Is it just me or does anyone else not like the direction being taken with the new set. I have been playing mtg since the early 1990s and this whole Godzilla etc theme just seems cheesy to me. I don't see any cards in the new set I particularly like. Mind you I only play edh at this point. Anyone else's thoughts?

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

The godzilla cards are simply alternate versions of already existing cards in the set. If you don't like them, you don't have to play with them.
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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

the set is just Wedge Scourge to me right now, what with its massive creatures I am only ever gonna cycle and never cast. the monster movie theme isn't really interesting to me but individual cards can still be tempting!

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 4 years ago

Dreaden wrote:
4 years ago
I don't see any cards in the new set I particularly like. Mind you I only play edh at this point.
I can't really fathom how these two sentences could be related.... i mean really? Mutate doesn't ring any bell for you?

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Post by Candlemane » 4 years ago

Frankly I haven't felt like I've needed any of the cards, and so far the commanders haven't really done it for me. Vivien and the new walker are the only cards I want to add to the collection so far, MAYBE Umori because I want another legendary Ooze.
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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

Candlemane wrote:
4 years ago
Frankly I haven't felt like I've needed any of the cards, and so far the commanders haven't really done it for me. Vivien and the new walker are the only cards I want to add to the collection so far, MAYBE Umori because I want another legendary Ooze.
Personally, I want all of them, including the vanilla Pangolin. Mutate seems like incredibly silly fun. Little sad about the otter, but I fully understand and support why it got prebanned. It would simply be to broken in singleton formats. Besides, getting 16+ turns with my Riku deck is more than enough. :P
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

I am very disappointed by the mutate mechanic of the set. I was really looking forward to the big monsters theme, but I thought there was going to be a much more elegant way to have "big fatties" also be low to the ground as far as constructed playable.

I was expecting monsters to have alternative ways to make them costs less for less impact, and then invest mana to make them into their full versions.
So far the mutate abilities spoiled so far are really mediocre. Not constructed playable at all.

The "companion" ability is quite out there, the deck building restrictions really do balance them out. But unfortunately this doesn't make the set good by any means.

It honestly feel like a wasted opportunity to me. Feels like they need some better leadership within the design team.

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Post by JovialJovian » 4 years ago

As a primarily commander player, I have no idea what you're talking about. Even if you totally discard companion and mutate, this set is delivering on cards I want for commander for sure, and those two mechanics seem deliberately made to appeal to the commander crowd.

As a Godzilla fan, I am fully on-board with the Godzilla versions of the cards, and will be going out of my way to get the Godzilla versions of everything, especially since it seems Spacegodzilla, Death Corona will be limited availability. But that's definitely personal preference, and I'm very glad that the Godzilla tie-in cards are optional flavor changes of normal mtg cards, rather than fully corporate cross-pollination.

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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 4 years ago

Honesty I think Ikoria is being very bold in both lore and mechanics and its funny to see people who whine wizards just does the same stuff but complain this set isn't a real magic set.

I'm not a kaiju fan and I find myself really digging this world, again really is stretching magic and I can see why they paired it around more traditional feeling magic sets.
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

the mutate mechanic feels confusing. But there are still some cards I want to have like the Mothra - has plenty of combo potential. And the 11/11 cycling godzilla for my living end deck. Hoping to see more large cycling creatures. :)
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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

Ikoria is already easily my favorite new plane. The flavor/lore is simply delightful. We all love cycling. Mutate isn't exactly what I expected but I think there is a lot of fun space there. Companion is neat. I expect to see lots of Companions over time. Also, screw keeping the Tarkir wedge names. I'm all triome baby
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Post by Jace » 4 years ago

Although I love the card I'm in Ominous seas, I really do not like the aesthetic theme or design of this set at all. It's really not for me but I don't mind admitting that may be for others. I got what I wanted this year so I really can't complain and just look for the cards that I personally would want and sleep on the rest of the set which is fine. Not every set needs to be for everyone I suppose. But as for my opinion no, I really do not like it. It reminds me of no man's sky and monster Hunter.

I hate gold sets and the strange combination of creature types. The theme isn't of interest to me. The mechanics aren't for me either. I prefer mono color sets with more traditional themes.

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Post by Cyberium » 4 years ago

Dreaden wrote:
4 years ago
Is it just me or does anyone else not like the direction being taken with the new set. I have been playing mtg since the early 1990s and this whole Godzilla etc theme just seems cheesy to me. I don't see any cards in the new set I particularly like. Mind you I only play edh at this point. Anyone else's thoughts?
Do you remember Scourge expansion? It's just a more complicated version of it.

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Post by Card Slinger J » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
the mutate mechanic feels confusing. But there are still some cards I want to have like the Mothra - has plenty of combo potential. And the 11/11 cycling godzilla for my living end deck. Hoping to see more large cycling creatures. :)
That's because it is. Even official MTG Judges and Wizards of the Coast themselves can't even figure out how Mutate works within the context of the game itself. Players aren't going to be able to attend Ikoria Pre-Release events with no way to purchase booster boxes at their LGS due to the quarantine. When you follow this up with really poor set design in Ikoria with the Mutate mechanic, you then have the perfect storm waiting to happen. I'm guessing the Godzilla box-toppers are mainly there for insurance policy.

Depending on how the rest of the set looks I think it's going to be a bloodbath for the LGS. They can't even order boxes without taking another hit under quarantine that risks themselves being put out of business permanently. On the bright side I guess Companion isn't as convoluted of a mechanic as Mutate is. Why did they use the term "starting deck" when it should've been "starting library"? There's nothing that really makes the name of the actual mechanic fit into what it's trying to convey.
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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
4 years ago
That's because it is. Even official MTG Judges and Wizards of the Coast themselves can't even figure out how Mutate works within the context of the game itself.
This is an exceptionally complex mechanic (and I kind of hate it due to that rules complexity) but people know how it works. There may be some other corner case not covered in the mechanics article or AMA they did, but to suggest Wizards doesn't know how this works is laughable. I may not like the mechanic, but I believe 100% that the rules will cover practically every scenario.

As for the set, I love the themes and the cards so far. For me it is actually somewhat odd that I really like the set but dislike almost all the mechanics. Mutate is toeing the line into Silver Border land, Keyword counters sound like a nightmare to keep track of once you have more than 2 on a creature, and I don't like how Companion interacts with Commander. But the cards themselves and some of the effects were are seeing are pretty cool. And, I happen to really like the Godzilla frames and, for any cards I want to play with, I will be getting the Godzilla frames.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

I don't think mutate is all that complicated.

Let's say you have a Wind Drake on the battlefield.

Current creature: 2/2 with flying.

In your hand, you have a card with mutate, Say a Pouncing Shoreshark, now you have two options, you can either play the card normally, and get an extra creature, or use it's mutate ability. You chose to use the Mutate ability. Now you have two options, either put it on top of the Wind Drake, or below the Wind drake. Let's explore both options:

Option #1: You put the Pouncing Shoreshark *below* the Wind Drake. The resulting creature has the power and toughness of the Wind Drake, but the textboxes of both creatures, making it a 2/2 flying creature with flash (which is irrelevant), and whenever this creature mutates you may return a creature an opponent controls to its owners hand. And since the creature just mutated, you proceed to do so.

Current creature: 2/2 flying, flash, Whenever this creature mutates, you may return target creature an opponent controls to it's owners hand.

Option #2: You put the Pouncing Shoreshark *on top* of the Wind Drake. The resulting creature has the power and toughness of the Pouncing Shoreshark, but the textboxes of both creatures, making it a 4/3 creature with Flash (no longer relevant), Flying, and Whenever this creature mutates, you may return target creature an opponent controls to it's owners hand.

Current creature: 4/3 flying, flash. Whenever this creature mutates, you may return target creature an opponent controls to it's owners hand.


Basically, (almost) any creature with a keyword ability, or an effect that triggers when it mutates makes a good target for mutation. Mutate is an alternate casting mode, and as such the card can be countered when it is on the stack like normal. Once a mutated creature on the battlefield dies, the entire stack is moved to the graveyard. And finally, a creature with one or more cards mutated onto it is considered one entity for game states, thus you can't target individual cards in the stack, only the card on top. A mutated card has the characteristics of the card *on top*, including casting cost, but the text boxes of all cards in the stack.

It's really not that complicated.
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Post by Atraxian » 4 years ago

This set didn't really click with me, so far.

The new mechanics are neat, but I can't really say I like them. I'm pretty much indifferent at them at this point.

The setting looked interesting at first, but I got bored of it pretty quickly. The focus on random big monsters seem to overshadow everything else.
I love the Monster Hunter series, there you have a similar concept with humans trying to survive in a world where they are overpowered by monsters at every turn and have to fight back to protect their settlements. There are also Kaijus, there if you want to put it like that (Dire Miralis or Dalamadur or the more recent Zorah Magdaros from World), but are used sparingly instead of thrown at your face at every turn like in this set.
When every other creature is a giant monster, they lose their charm pretty quickly.
At least there is the occasional little critter like an otter or an insect.

I don't like the jumbled mess of random creature types. I just don't like it. It makes little sense and makes me think they just threw some dice instead of planning the world decently or making something interesting.

The Godzilla cards? I don't like that they are tournament playable. They took some of the worst aspect of alters and made them official:
- art that has nothing to do with the card in most cases
- altered name with just a small real name reminder under it
They are great collectibles, but other than that... Potentially it is like I altered most of a deck replacing all the art and names with images of random anime characters. Just a confusing mess.

All in all, it looks like this is just a set I'll forget about pretty quickly, leaving only a "another meh set" sensation to add to the pile.

EDIT: caught some typos
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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 4 years ago

I mentioned it before elsewhere, but my own immediate gripe with the previews came from the extreme focus on legendaries. By nature of their complexity and unique names (and even complicated creature types for the Apex-cycle, though I adore the theme they have going on there) it's really hard to just remeber and distinguish them.

The fact that more than half the revealed cards immediately were introduced with multiple cardnames meant there was just sooo much noise. A few more pretty iconic cards that people can talk about without someone else having to ask "And what did that one do? Was that the Space Godzilla or the Quartz Godzilla?" would have been nice I get confused about Snapdax and Vadrok and Umori and Kalamax and Kathril and Zaxara... but I know what Shark Typhoon does any time of the day.
A more drawn out reveal of the "exciting commander bait" would have helped as well.
Card Slinger J wrote:
4 years ago
Why did they use the term "starting deck" when it should've been "starting library"? There's nothing that really makes the name of the actual mechanic fit into what it's trying to convey.
Because they know that there is a difference between the two e. g. in Commander your commander is part of your starting deck, but starts in the command zone rather than the library.
Krishnath wrote:Basically, (almost) any creature with a keyword ability, or an effect that triggers when it mutates makes a good target for mutation.
An interesting aspect about this as opposed to bestow is that it overwrites p/t rather than set it, so mutating a 1/5 with a 3/3 will be a lateral move and the mutate ability becomes really important to the value of the card and as such mutating actually becomes closer to channel or kicker with an ETB effect.

I think the only confusing thing about mutate for a lot of people (but that WotC seems to understand very well) is that mutating a creature works very much like enchanting it with respect to summoning sickness, tapped status and effects already affecting a creature (say +3/+3 until end of turn or damage marked earlier in the turn). People seem to understand readily that mutating a card underneath an existing creature works like an Aura, but really have a harder time wrapping their head around mutating on top of an existing creature not working like a new creature entering the battlefield.

Maybe likening it to a p/t setting Aura (Kenrith's Transformation or Gigantiform) would help there.

I have a hunch that the aspects confusing now to players will be more easily understood once they start playng with the cards, but also that there will be a lot of unexpected evaluations going to occur once you actually have to think about a game state and your game plan (mutate now to force a discard and effective haste or play next turn for the additional creature I'll have on board?) rather than the simple resolution of the spell.

MtG Arena will play a particular important rule here enforcing the rules at all times without need to be called to the table as a flesh-and-blood judge might need to be.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

SecretInfiltrator wrote:
4 years ago
Maybe likening it to a p/t setting Aura (Kenrith's Transformation or Gigantiform) would help there.

I have a hunch that the aspects confusing now to players will be more easily understood once they start playng with the cards, but also that there will be a lot of unexpected evaluations going to occur once you actually have to think about a game state and your game plan (mutate now to force a discard and effective haste or play next turn for the additional creature I'll have on board?) rather than the simple resolution of the spell.
I agree with this completely. It looks complex, but it really isn't. The ability counters are a more complex mechanic because it is literally harder to track unless you have access to the punch-out counters.
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Post by Max Rebo » 4 years ago

I have to agree that I'm a little thrown off by the set.
It seems to be doing things that aren't very MtG to me.
The companion mechanic is just …….out there....can't be balanced much either
Mutate Seems sloppy, the counters seems sloppy.
The paper board states are going to look ridiculous.
I also am all aboard on crazy creature types but even these go over that line of silliness.
The Godzilla cards are just weird to be included and not some supplemental or Secret lair thing.
And they literally have a sharknado card in a real set. SMH
Anyway, with all the product they've been throwing and overloading us with, you can tell the ideas are running thin.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

Max Rebo wrote:
4 years ago
Anyway, with all the product they've been throwing and overloading us with, you can tell the ideas are running thin.
I would argue that Ikoria is proof that Ideas are quite the opposite of running thin, it is incredibly innovative on a scale that makes the other major innovations in MTG over the last decade pale by comparison.
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 4 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
Max Rebo wrote:
4 years ago
Anyway, with all the product they've been throwing and overloading us with, you can tell the ideas are running thin.
I would argue that Ikoria is proof that Ideas are quite the opposite of running thin, it is incredibly innovative on a scale that makes the other major innovations in MTG over the last decade pale by comparison.
I agree, mutate is really different from what normal magic does, keyword counters opens up a fun little spaced while I'm not a fan of campion but it defiantly is not something magic normally does. Cycling is kinda boring but with mutate being the big focus it makes sense they wanted something simple.

Lore wise it also bold to not have any of the characteristic races besides humans and the only iconic being demons who are mutated with other creatures and replacing them with the five monsters. I think this the 2rd plane after Ixalan without dragons which where pushed into most planes up until now.
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

after some discussion with a friend today. I guess the mutate is not bad at all. But I need a bit of practice playing with it. Can still be confusing if I don't put the rule into memory.
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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

5colorsrainbow wrote:
4 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
Max Rebo wrote:
4 years ago
Anyway, with all the product they've been throwing and overloading us with, you can tell the ideas are running thin.
I would argue that Ikoria is proof that Ideas are quite the opposite of running thin, it is incredibly innovative on a scale that makes the other major innovations in MTG over the last decade pale by comparison.
I agree, mutate is really different from what normal magic does, keyword counters opens up a fun little spaced while I'm not a fan of campion but it defiantly is not something magic normally does. Cycling is kinda boring but with mutate being the big focus it makes sense they wanted something simple.

Lore wise it also bold to not have any of the characteristic races besides humans and the only iconic being demons who are mutated with other creatures and replacing them with the five monsters. I think this the 2rd plane after Ixalan without dragons which where pushed into most planes up until now.
We have Dragons and Hydras as well in Ikoria, no sign of Sphinxes or Angels though.
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 4 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
5colorsrainbow wrote:
4 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago

I would argue that Ikoria is proof that Ideas are quite the opposite of running thin, it is incredibly innovative on a scale that makes the other major innovations in MTG over the last decade pale by comparison.
I agree, mutate is really different from what normal magic does, keyword counters opens up a fun little spaced while I'm not a fan of campion but it defiantly is not something magic normally does. Cycling is kinda boring but with mutate being the big focus it makes sense they wanted something simple.

Lore wise it also bold to not have any of the characteristic races besides humans and the only iconic being demons who are mutated with other creatures and replacing them with the five monsters. I think this the 2rd plane after Ixalan without dragons which where pushed into most planes up until now.
We have Dragons and Hydras as well in Ikoria, no sign of Sphinxes or Angels though.
True thought again like the demon they are wrapped up more into being mutants/monster and with other creatures taking their place in this set as the iconic and somewhat the characteristic races.
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