Krishnath wrote: ↑4 years ago
WizardMN wrote: ↑4 years ago
Krishnath wrote: ↑4 years ago
I agree with this completely. It looks complex, but it really isn't. The ability counters are a more complex mechanic because it is literally harder to track unless you have access to the punch-out counters.
To be fair, the complexity isn't with how Mutate works with itself or even with the cards in the set. Your summary is pretty basic, but what happens when a Vehicle is involved? What happens when you copy it? What happens if a clone is part of the pile already vs making the pile a copy of something else later on? What happens when you put your Commander in the pile? And then, when
Leadership Vacuum is cast on that pile? What happens when you exile the creature with
Cloudshift? What happens when you have a flip card in the pile and it flips? What about a transform card? Even worse, what about one of the non-human Transform walkers?
Now, we know all these answers so it isn't like we just throw our hands up, but these are a fair number of odd situations that can occur with this mechanic that enough people aren't going to just know when they are playing. They will have to ask or look things up.
Well, I didn't really expect an answer to the situations; they were there as examples. The fact that you got some wrong, or didn't know the answer sort of proves my point though. I am not sure I would expect little Timmy to know the ones you did get right either. But, since you offered, I will respond to each one
#1: If the vehicle is on the top, it gains all the abilities of the creatures attached to it. Which usually doesn't do anything unless it is crewed. If the vehicle is somewhere in the stack below the top spot, the creature gains the abilities of the vehicle.
Does it though? Why would it still have the abilities of the vehicle if the vehicle only has abilities while a creature? Wouldn't the animation effect wear off? This is the one I am still questioning. I have heard that it still gets the abilities from when it was a creature, but the answer on Reddit with Sarkhan suggests that isn't the case. And this is for the Vehicle being in the middle and not on top. You are right about it being on top.
To be clear, we know it has Crew either way; the question is whether it has the abilities it was granted while a creature. Vehicles may not be the best example for this.
Celestial Colonnade is probably better.
#2: The copy gains all the abilities the stack had when it was copied.
Correct
#3: Depends on the type of clone, if it just a straight up clone and similar spells, it has the abilities of the card it copied. So depending on where it is in the stack it is it is either a copy of that creature, with the abilities of all the attached creatures, or it grants the abilities of the card it copied if it is in the stack. If it is a copy of something like a Vesuvan Doppelganger, I assume it follows the rules of that card since its ability overwrites what the card is whenever it triggers.
My question for this part was twofold: if the clone is what is being mutated on, it is that plus whatever the new thing is. So, a Clone copying a Raging Goblin that got Mutated now has a Raging Goblin as part of the pile plus the mutation. If the pile exists and something like Mirrorweave is cast, the pile is simply the copy of whatever was targeted. This might be what you meant; I just wasn't sure.
#4: It the commander is on the top, it functions as normal, except it also has the abilities of every creature attached to it. If it is in the stack, it grants its abilities to the top creature. I am not sure how commander damage would work in that case, but I am guessing that it doesn't grant the "commanderness" to the creature it is attached to. Regardless, once the stack dies, you chose if it goes to your graveyard or the command zone.
It is still your commander as long as your commander is in the pile. And you are correct that you still choose where the individual commander card goes.
#5: IThe commander card goes to the command zone, if it is the top card of the stack, the other cards go to the graveyard. I do believe that if it is in the stack the remaining cards stay on the battlefield and the mutated creature loses the abilities of the commander card. However, although
Leadership Vacuum doesn't target and therefore works in this case, targeted cards do not. You can only target the top card of a stack, the entire stack is considered
*one* creature, just like with meld.
Rather than give the answer, I would be curious to why you think Leadership Vacuum would cause anything to go to the graveyard? And yes, it is like Meld and, just like meld, the entire pile *is* your commander. So, even if Vacuum did target, it would still work.
#6: The entire stack is exiled and then returned. Functions just like a melded creature.
Correct
The comparisons to Meld are very apt. They will break apart and return separated just like Meld.
#7: Not certain, but I believe that the stack loses the abilities on the pre-flipped textbox, and gains the ones from the other. It'll be interesting to find out.
Yes, that is correct. Any permanent can be flipped; most just aren't. So, when it is flipped, any component that has flipped text uses that; everything else uses the normal text.
#8: Again I am not certain, but logically it would lose the abilities (and possibly characteristics) from the front side of the card and gain those on the back.
That is correct for anything in the pile that can transform. Same as Flip basically.
#9: If the planeswalker is the top card of the stack, you end up with a planeswalker with a lot of abilities it couldn't use unless it becomes a creature. If the planeswalker is in the stack, you end up with a creature with planeswalker abilities, which it can use one of during each of your turns.
No. Of all the answers you've given, this is the most wrong. Though I think this is mostly because you read it wrong. I am talking about
Nissa, Vastwood Seer. What happens when the ability to transform her triggers when she is part of the pile? The location in the pile is irrelevant.
Seriously, it's not that difficult if one just thinks about it logically. >.<
Of the answers you gave, 4 are wrong, or have wrong parts to them. And a couple others you weren't certain but you guessed correctly. To be clear, I am not trying to call you out, but you seem like a pretty intelligent person and are attempting to go, at least a little, on intuition. Which is fine, but that is the point I am trying to make. Doing that creates situations where people are simply wrong.
Now, we can use this tangent as a means of education, and your thoughts on the other 5 points are, seemingly, spot on (I do think the clone one got kind of muddied there but whatever). And I am not saying people won't eventually know. But people *still* question how trample and deathtouch work and people still question how Mindslaver and Commander replacement effect works. This is not something that most players are going to easily be able to intuit during gameplay when situations arise.
Perhaps I am wrong and I am simply not giving people enough credit. So we shall see.