other ccgs from the 90s

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

any of you ever get into other early card games? A lot of them were stylized after M:TG (Battletech, Jyhad and On the Edge noticeably so) but some did their own things like Wyvern and Rage and I love them all dearly. Some of the most striking early M:TG artists had work in these other games, too; Melissa Benson's art is all over Galactic Empires, NeNe Thomas, LA Williams and Margaret Organ-Kean have work in lots of games too, Tempest of the Gods CCG?

not really fantastically interested in the card games whose art were made up of stills from tv shows although I remember the X-Files game having a really interesting take on presentation.

Most of these things are still dead games but perversely that sorta makes me wanna collect them and talk about them a lot more. Does anyone have a favourite dead trading card game?

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Post by chochky » 4 years ago

I have a pretty strong fascination with a lot of the old CCGs, in particular Vampire: The Eternal Struggle (VtES) and RAGE. Both games had great art, were very flavorful, and had amazing lore through the RPGs they were based on.

VtES in particular got me interested Vampire: the Masquerade (never understood what that was all about until I got into the CCG).

A lot of the mechanics in the game are pretty intriguing, what with the constant card flow, unique deckbuilding, life-as-your-resource, predator/prey dynamic, etc. The deckbuilding in particular is something I've never seen replicated in any CCGs/LCGs since. I assume most designers tend to simply accept MtG's 4-card limit as the standard, and implement some version of that just to stay safe.

The aforementioned "predator & prey" mechanic (which for those that haven't heard of, is a restriction to which players you're allowed to attack - you can only attack the player to your left) is ingenious and elegantly fixes a lot of the turtling and kingmaker issues that tend to be prevalent in many multiplayer CCG games I've played (including Commander). At the same time, it naturally promotes table politics. Just an awesome mechanic that many players might scoff at (who wants to be restricted in who they can attack?), but which results in superior gameplay (in my opinion).

The main issue with VtES, though, is its complexity and game length. Games can be upwards of 5+ hours, and I'm not sure if anyone has found a workable, balanced 2-player version yet. The game also suffers from the 90's card text problem - in other words, it doesn't have the same level of clarity in its rules as MtG does. It also suffers from rules bloat - the combat phase has something like 9 steps to it, and the timing of certain cards isn't always clear. Over the years, MtG has pruned some of it's rules baggage, but I don't think VtES has done the same - and it shows.

I also think the more recent game design has suffered - it doesn't have the same kind of innovation that MtG does. You won't find much in the way of cool keywords or splashy effects. A lot of newer cards will look very similar to existing older staple cards in terms of effects. I do wish the current designers would try to be more innovative.

Having said all of that, it's a cool, flavorful game that is still kicking - VtES is still alive with a small but devoted player base.

In terms of other CCGs, I also found Netrunner to be interesting, but could never get into the theme. As a result, I never tried the game in its original form, or when it was re-released some years ago as Android: Netrunner. Though I've heard a lot of praise for it.

I think the concept of taking an older, dead (or mostly dead) CCG and re-releasing it with a modern facelift is a neat idea, and one that I would like to see more of.

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Post by Card Slinger J » 4 years ago

chochky wrote:
4 years ago
I think the concept of taking an older, dead (or mostly dead) CCG and re-releasing it with a modern facelift is a neat idea, and one that I would like to see more of.
Except it's already been done before within the past two decades with little to no good marketing / advertising let alone not putting enough resources into Research & Development and Organized Play. Even If they're able to their competition has made it much harder for them to attract the kind of audience they're looking for. The companies behind these games know that they have no chance in hell of being able to compete against MTG, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Pokémon TCG due to how crowded the CCG market is yet they do it anyway as a contractual obligation with their corporate sponsors as a short term cash grab.

The customers who buy into these products fall into the same pay-to-win loot crate trap with this false sense of optimism that the companies in charge have learned from other companies who have more experience in this field. History has proven time and time again that they're only in it to sell the brand rather than the game itself. Why do you think there's so many discontinued CCG's in the first place? There's some older CCG's that have taken the leap into LCG's (Living Card Games) such as Legend of the Five Rings and Vs. System by Fantasy Flight Games but without much success I'm afraid.
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Post by chochky » 4 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
4 years ago
chochky wrote:
4 years ago
I think the concept of taking an older, dead (or mostly dead) CCG and re-releasing it with a modern facelift is a neat idea, and one that I would like to see more of.
Except it's already been done before within the past two decades with little to no good marketing / advertising let alone not putting enough resources into Research & Development and Organized Play. Even If they're able to their competition has made it much harder for them to attract the kind of audience they're looking for. The companies behind these games know that they have no chance in hell of being able to compete against MTG, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Pokémon TCG due to how crowded the CCG market is yet they do it anyway as a contractual obligation with their corporate sponsors as a short term cash grab.

The customers who buy into these products fall into the same pay-to-win loot crate trap with this false sense of optimism that the companies in charge have learned from other companies who have more experience in this field. History has proven time and time again that they're only in it to sell the brand rather than the game itself. Why do you think there's so many discontinued CCG's in the first place? There's some older CCG's that have taken the leap into LCG's (Living Card Games) such as Legend of the Five Rings and Vs. System by Fantasy Flight Games but without much success I'm afraid.
Yea, I'm aware that it's been done to mixed success. Let me be clear: I think the concept has merit, but the execution often is a totally different beast due to the realities of the CCG/LCG market. To be frank, I think most of these games shouldn't really be aiming for the whole "lifestyle game with 50+ expansions" that MtG has managed to pull off. They just don't have the R&D or marketing resources to really pull it off.
Perhaps just give them the board game treatment of a single core set, just 2-3 expansions, and call it a day. Not every game can or even should aim to position themselves as the same kind of product as a typical CCG. Some products simply can't be cash cows, but that doesn't mean they can't be successful (as long as success isn't defined as "the MtG killer"). A gaming brand can and should have a portfolio of different products to appeal to different segments.

But this is already veering semi off topic into a discussion about product marketing management, and away from the main topic of the thread.

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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

I remember I, like many other kids my age got my start on TCGs with the Pokemon card game. Didn't really understand the game, mostly collected and had a few awful decks. I had a bit of Yugioh but didn't really get into it as much. I also plaayed the awful first version of the DBZ card game that was released in the early 2000s by Panini/Score. That was mostly because my friends and I loved the show around grades 5 and 6 (2001-2002ish). I loved it but as a kid it was a bit harder to judge a game

It's hard to be as successful as MtG but most of the other card games I played when I was young are still around but I don't really pay attention to the state of those games

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

here in the house, we played with pokemon and yugioh in the late 90's up to the early 2000. Then it was all mtg after that. As for a niche ccg that I have, bought some Kantai Collection cards from a guy at our lgs when I went there to buy eldrazi. But I keep the Kantai cards just for the pictures, as I have no one to play them with.

edit: and we played pokemon without fully understanding the rules. Like for example, when someone was put to "sleep" status by an attack.. that monster already counts as "fainted" because we did not know how a monster can be woken from sleep. :omg:
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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
4 years ago
chochky wrote:
4 years ago
I think the concept of taking an older, dead (or mostly dead) CCG and re-releasing it with a modern facelift is a neat idea, and one that I would like to see more of.
Except it's already been done before within the past two decades with little to no good marketing / advertising let alone not putting enough resources into Research & Development and Organized Play. Even If they're able to their competition has made it much harder for them to attract the kind of audience they're looking for. The companies behind these games know that they have no chance in hell of being able to compete against MTG, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Pokémon TCG due to how crowded the CCG market is yet they do it anyway as a contractual obligation with their corporate sponsors as a short term cash grab.

The customers who buy into these products fall into the same pay-to-win loot crate trap with this false sense of optimism that the companies in charge have learned from other companies who have more experience in this field. History has proven time and time again that they're only in it to sell the brand rather than the game itself. Why do you think there's so many discontinued CCG's in the first place? There's some older CCG's that have taken the leap into LCG's (Living Card Games) such as Legend of the Five Rings and Vs. System by Fantasy Flight Games but without much success I'm afraid.
I think it's the community's responsibility to revive games for themselves without the aid of business, tbh. Maintain resources, exchange info and trade-lists on board game geek and elsewhere and if the game is truly dead as a doornail, make yr own expansions! You can also design yr own solitaire rules for games you have an inert collection of. They'll never be supported like the big glamorous names and won't have tournament prizes ever again, so it's up to the players who love the game to continue finding ways to derive intrinsic joy from its existence!

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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
here in the house, we played with pokemon and yugioh in the late 90's up to the early 2000. Then it was all mtg after that. As for a niche ccg that I have, bought some Kantai Collection cards from a guy at our lgs when I went there to buy eldrazi. But I keep the Kantai cards just for the pictures, as I have no one to play them with.

edit: and we played pokemon without fully understanding the rules. Like for example, when someone was put to "sleep" status by an attack.. that monster already counts as "fainted" because we did not know how a monster can be woken from sleep. :omg:
my brother and I had so many interactions that were caused by use not understanding the rules. For example in Magic we thought that we could mulligan anytime we didn't like our hands and draw that many cards, not just at the start of a game, so we'd often do it mid game.

I remember trading away most of my cards for other games when I learned about Magic

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
I think it's the community's responsibility to revive games for themselves without the aid of business, tbh. Maintain resources, exchange info and trade-lists on board game geek and elsewhere and if the game is truly dead as a doornail, make yr own expansions! You can also design yr own solitaire rules for games you have an inert collection of. They'll never be supported like the big glamorous names and won't have tournament prizes ever again, so it's up to the players who love the game to continue finding ways to derive intrinsic joy from its existence!
Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games don't work the same way as Dungeons & Dragons where you go to some random strangers' house to do some role playing at a big table. The aid of needing a business to run these types of games is really the Achilles heel of this gaming genre cause once that collapses then there's no real incentive to play due to how difficult finding playgroups outside of home really are. There's a good reason why the Local Game Store (LGS) is the backbone and lifeblood of Tabletop Gaming yet a lot of people will find excuses why it's no longer necessary for that type of gaming experience.
chochky wrote:
4 years ago
But this is already veering semi off topic into a discussion about product marketing management, and away from the main topic of the thread.
Back on the topic at hand, I didn't really play a whole lot of Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games during the early to mid 90's until Yu-Gi-Oh! first burst onto the scene in the late 90's and early 2000's though I did collect Mortal Kombat trading cards at the time. Even though I was aware of MTG at the time through reading video game magazines I collected as a kid and young teenager I didn't think it was going to get as big as it was today. I missed out on the first renaissance of Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games with the original Star Wars CCG by Decipher and Legend of the Five Rings which some of my friends played for a while.

I'm more familiar with the second renaissance of Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games which took place in the early to mid 2000's until the 2010's where it was starting to wane a bit. In that second renaissance you had Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokémon, Duel Masters, Marvel / DC Vs. System, Dragon Ball Z / GT (Score / Panini), World of Warcraft TCG (before it became Hearthstone), Naruto (Bandai), and many others. We're currently in the third renaissance period of Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games where it's shaping up to be the shortest of the three with kids and young teenagers being exposed more and more toward Digital exclusive alternatives that don't cost them as much.
Last edited by Card Slinger J 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by folding_music » 3 years ago

giggling at this amazing card syntax from the distant gaming past:

""Amok
Condition
Psychic
Character Bulldozes and must attack every turn unless it gets cranked. It may not voluntarily crank other than to attack. It may attack a player who has already been attacked. It must attack each successive Character in a file, starting with the one in the lowest rank. If active Characters in Amok's file prevent attacking other players' Characters, Amok attacks each successive lower-ranking Character in its file. Cost = 2 to play on Low-Lifes or Kergillians.""

I love the rules text on really old cards before their rules sets got standardized into computer-ish syntax. There's life and eccentricity hidden in this silly ability.

I really need to learn On the Edge properly so I can write solitaire rules! can only find a few active players online and mostly they talk about buying up the entire card pool so I think I along with everyone else am stuck with the cards I have already...

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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
4 years ago
The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
here in the house, we played with pokemon and yugioh in the late 90's up to the early 2000. Then it was all mtg after that. As for a niche ccg that I have, bought some Kantai Collection cards from a guy at our lgs when I went there to buy eldrazi. But I keep the Kantai cards just for the pictures, as I have no one to play them with.

edit: and we played pokemon without fully understanding the rules. Like for example, when someone was put to "sleep" status by an attack.. that monster already counts as "fainted" because we did not know how a monster can be woken from sleep. :omg:
my brother and I had so many interactions that were caused by use not understanding the rules. For example in Magic we thought that we could mulligan anytime we didn't like our hands and draw that many cards, not just at the start of a game, so we'd often do it mid game.

I remember trading away most of my cards for other games when I learned about Magic
and that's what makes mtg stand out among other tcg's imo. Mtg has complexity I have not found in other games.

also another thing I like about mtg is the cards are not easily pirated. There was a whole bunch of pirated Yugi-Oh cards over here some years ago.
________________

about other niche ccg I played. Also played some cardcaptor sakura ccg about the same time we played pokemon. But just like pokemon, we did not fully understand the rules.. it's still fun, but maybe more fun if we knew everything that we were doing. :halo:
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
3 years ago
and that's what makes mtg stand out among other tcg's imo. Mtg has complexity I have not found in other games.
Yu-Gi-Oh! I feel somehow managed to become more complex due to it's lack of a resource system where there's no gradual build up / back and forth in between turns like there is in MTG. Both games have the tendency to Solitaire for a win out of nowhere while comboing off except in Yu-Gi-Oh! you're already locked out of the game with no response to what your opponent is doing, where as in MTG you're already tapped out most of the time relying on a "free" counterspell to help bail you out. I've seen this happen just about everytime someone manages to get an infinite combo going.

Better way of explaining this is Yu-Gi-Oh! plays more like Blackjack where MTG is more akin to Poker. Cardfight!! Vanguard I feel is one of the few Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games that's managed to fix most of the problems that's been plaguing Yu-Gi-Oh! for years except it lacks the good advertising / marketing of the nostalgia that Yu-Gi-Oh! has. That's also how the Pokémon TCG aged well especially since Wizards of the Coast laid the foundation for it to succeed before it was taken over by Pokémon Company International in the early 2000's.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

just one more to add to this thread. It seems Star Wars tcg is still alive. Saw what looked like booster packs a few months ago when I visited our lgs. It's on upper left of the picture.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

You talking about the original Star Wars CCG by Decipher? That Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Games' been out of print since 2001. The Starter Decks you posted are actually from a different Star Wars Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game made by none other than Richard Garfield himself while he was still working for Wizards of the Coast back in 2002 up until late 2005 If I recall. Go look it up on Wikipedia.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

I guess the Star Wars I saw at the store is from a different group.
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Post by K4yr4h » 3 years ago

as a fan of star trek tng, im still a fan of the 1e star trek ccg, which is still continued by a non profit organization.
the rules are kinda messy, since the game never made the big overhaul mtg did a couple times, but in the end its the still the best strategy game out there because it doesnt really have rng elements. deck building and strategy planning is the focus.

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