Cards Banned for Depicting Racism

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Why is it appropriate for WOTC to be ashamed but not the song companies that sell hate filled songs?
Art is SUPPOSED to be allowed to be offensive, it is one of our fundamental principles. We can dislike the art and condemn it as awful garbage, but you do not censor it.
The reason I used the word 'ashamed' is because WotC seems to have done this in reaction to a twitter post that called them out for various racist practices, particularly in hiring, and showed just one of the cards at the end, likely not so much as to complain about the card as to make a point that they were pointing out prejudice, and the card was Invoke Prejudice, and had that questionable gatherer number.

Wizards then quickly responds by banning a bunch of cards including Invoke Prejudice, and it's unclear if they plan to adjust their other practices, or if this was just a panicked effort to appease a twitter mob to avoid negative press.

In the equivalent song company analogy, it would be the song company being called out for refusing to hire non-white staff for %$#%$#% reasons, then hiring white staff that were less qualified that proved those %$#%$#% reasons %$#%$#%, and and constantly tokenizing their relatively few black musicians they publish the music of while mistreating them, and then when called out on twitter, they respond by ending their contracts with maybe a third of their most obvious white artists who are known racists, who don't work directly for the company, but are licenced and such through them to make songs, and make a general, vague statement against racism and no real promises to treat black people better in hiring practices or treatment of their licenced artists, and do so in hopes of avoiding negative press and a twitter mob, and only because the timing involved large protests in general against racist stuff.

Art is certainly able to be offensive, and should be allowed to be, that doesn't mean all companies will consider it good policy to keep connected to it. Art can be a statement, and a statement can be made by rejecting art as well. Of course, if it was the government rejecting it, like, say, some country saying X-card is banned because it encourages or teaches Y to the populace, then that would be censorship and bad, or saying companies can't make anything (not just card games) that involve Z subjects, again, bad.

Unfortunately, in Wizards' case, while they're theoretically in their rights to do this and might be doing a possibly good thing in some situations, such as making it clear to racist players that they don't have their backs and want them out of mainstream magic play so that more minority players feel welcome there, it seems more like they're doing this as cover for other racist practices, and not even doing it completely or fairly, just throwing out minor example choices to make it seem like they are doing it, and leaving the option open to do more of it if enough of a twitter mob accrues regarding such.

I don't think many people really approve of what they are doing, but if they are, I, at least, think they should either do it all the way and fairly to all minority groups, or not at all, and either way, they should actually change their real problems like racist hiring practices.
Nah, your analogy about the song company is way off. The song company equivalent would be getting accused of poor hiring practices then banning a bunch of offensive songs. Which would of course lead to a long discussion about those songs...

Regarding the bolded part above. Just fyi the govt IS doing this right now by dismantling any statues / insignias / icons deemed offensive to whatever group. Be afraid.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Kinda surprised no one brought up Waylay since the artwork and flavor text are both racist toward Native Americans.
who knows, they might include that in the next chop list. Wotc did say they would be doing more later..
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Well seeing as we're already down this rabbit hole, here's my predictions for the top 7 cards depicting sexism:

Earthbind
Triumph of Ferocity
Unholy Hunger
Perilous Forays
Hypochondria
Voidslime
Phyrexian Processor (illus. Ron Spencer)
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Well seeing as we're already down this rabbit hole, here's my predictions for the top 7 cards depicting sexism:

Earthbind
Triumph of Ferocity
Unholy Hunger
Perilous Forays
Hypochondria
Voidslime
Phyrexian Processor (illus. Ron Spencer)
Solid cases for all those cards. It will ultimately be up to the mob to decide what cards will be gone. It's out of our hands.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
They have opened Pandora's Box. Since art is subjective to the viewer, they will now have explain themselves for every piece of art that someone decides to get offended by.
forgot to quote this. I agree, and it's worrying. It seems enough twitter posts complaining, and a card could be gone sooner or later.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

The best thing they could do to make up for banning these controversial cards is by reprinting them with more appropriate artwork and flavor text so that it doesn't hurt the ability to actually play the cards unless they're on the Reserve List. I can't think of any other cards throughout MTG's history where the card name, artwork, and oracle text are as offensive as Invoke Prejudice. So even If it wasn't a Reserve List card it would be impossible to reprint it in a more appropriate form that's acceptable in today's society unless you dramatically changed it's functionality. I think this is a major wake up call for a lot of MTG artists commissioning artwork for Wizards of the Coast as they need to be real careful.

Toning down specific creatures depicting scantily-clad women via reprints I think would only hurt the original cards' value by causing an unnecessary demand for them on the Secondary Market that most players wouldn't be able to afford. It reminds me of how Wizards of the Coast toned down Douglas Shuler's artwork for Serra Angel into the version we see today by Donato Giancola. It's one thing to ban cards because they no longer fit within the context of modern society when it's another when you ban playable cards that are a key piece to someone's deck regardless of format without a viable substitute. Sometimes solutions can invite it's own set of problems even If it's justified.
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Post by SpeedGrapher » 3 years ago

The game is now corrupted by communists and liberals that don't actually care about the game at all.
There is nothing at all that can be done about the bannings. They are final.
We can keep discussing it but we are wasting time.
The ideology of wanting to ban these cards is based around modern progressiveness which constantly tells you to do something only because it makes them feel good for 5 minutes. Or to manipulate a voting demographic. These people don't care about you or your well being. Please stop listening to them.

A clear example of this is the following.
Example: Don't group together in large groups due to Corona virus.
At the same time.
Example: Grouping together to protest is still encouraged even during the pandemic.

Magic will be known as that racist card game. No level of inclusion matters. We already have trans planeswalkers.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
So nothing will ever be enough to pass the purity test.

The combination of Corona virus and this scandal will drastically lower the number of players.

People that say they hold the beliefs of, include all, everyone is equal, peace and love. They are lying to you when they say things like that. When you question them. Their retort always is "What are you a racist?" to try to force their view points on you.

Another example.
The heavily liberal crowd enters a magic shop. Everyone is welcoming. Totally fine with new people. They participate in a tournaments for a month or two. Then afterwards these people are just there hanging out. Not buying anything ever. When asked to leave because their loitering at this point. They refuse to leave using threats of racism, sexism, transphobia, xenophobia will be posted online if they have to leave. Owner lets them stay.
Regular customers leave. Shop closes down later that year.

If you want to keep politics out of magic you can't anymore.

Magic is going in a hate filled direction that I don't condone. Society is as well. People use a magical term "racism" to shut down any conversation they don't want to listen to. Why? Because I'm saying things that contradict their belief system. A belief system they won't re-think.

The sadist part is that these people don't even understand they are being manipulated. They won't understand until the hate mob they were once apart of turns on them. That is happening to gay men as the LGBTQ community now sees gay men as too privileged. Privilege being another buzz term to shut down conversations.

The news media is your government. You aren't supporting some counter culture movement. The government wants you to loose your mind and burn things. Why? Because while you're distracted they are destroying the financial system to further in debt you. 9 ish trillion dollars printed in a month. Meaning food will cost more money, everything will cost more money.

If you do a quick news search you will find many deaths and murders this past month. Very few if any of them are being manipulated for a political movement. I find it very sad that a mans death is being used this way. This is mostly because it's a presidential election year.

We are pretty close if not already in the era of thought crimes and George Owells 1984.

If you really want to argue against me. I'm probably just going to refer you to youtube videos that explain the same thing I already have.

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Post by user_938036 » 3 years ago

SpeedGrapher wrote:
3 years ago
If you really want to argue against me. I'm probably just going to refer you to youtube videos that explain the same thing I already have.
Thank you for having the wherewithal to understand that you don't actually understand your own stance because it is in fact someone else's. Most people simply assume that they stance they have is their own when they are in fact mere puppets. The more people the realize they are puppets the more likely we are to change anything. Though if people are happy being puppets it becomes much harder.

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

SpeedGrapher wrote:
3 years ago
Magic will be known as that racist card game. No level of inclusion matters. We already have trans planeswalkers.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
So nothing will ever be enough to pass the purity test.

The combination of Corona virus and this scandal will drastically lower the number of players.
Well a document was recently released on Twitter and Reddit exposing a history of systematic racism in Wizards of the Coast's hiring practices titled "The Wizards I Know" by Zaiem Beg. This reminds me of the famous quote by Martin Luther King Jr., "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." That being the case is it fair to say that Wizards of the Coast should be hiring employees based on their talents more than their race, ethnicity, and gender? This is where I think the forced diversity argument falls flat.

The way I see it is that racism is nothing more than an illusion to divide humanity instead of uniting us as one people regardless of race, ethnicity, and gender. Saying that it's an illusion to divide and conquer isn't discounting the fact that racism is a systemic problem in our society, IT IS. I just think that we need to look deeper into ourselves by realizing what life is like in their shoes instead of our own. Treat others the way we want to be treated. I think Wizards of the Coast needs to own up to their mistakes instead of making excuses because they shouldn't be using the success of MTG to hide skeletons in their closet.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

SpeedGrapher wrote:
3 years ago
The game is now corrupted by communists and liberals that don't actually care about the game at all.
There is nothing at all that can be done about the bannings. They are final.
We can keep discussing it but we are wasting time.
The ideology of wanting to ban these cards is based around modern progressiveness which constantly tells you to do something only because it makes them feel good for 5 minutes. Or to manipulate a voting demographic. These people don't care about you or your well being. Please stop listening to them.

A clear example of this is the following.
Example: Don't group together in large groups due to Corona virus.
At the same time.
Example: Grouping together to protest is still encouraged even during the pandemic.

Magic will be known as that racist card game. No level of inclusion matters. We already have trans planeswalkers.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
So nothing will ever be enough to pass the purity test.

The combination of Corona virus and this scandal will drastically lower the number of players.

People that say they hold the beliefs of, include all, everyone is equal, peace and love. They are lying to you when they say things like that. When you question them. Their retort always is "What are you a racist?" to try to force their view points on you.

Another example.
The heavily liberal crowd enters a magic shop. Everyone is welcoming. Totally fine with new people. They participate in a tournaments for a month or two. Then afterwards these people are just there hanging out. Not buying anything ever. When asked to leave because their loitering at this point. They refuse to leave using threats of racism, sexism, transphobia, xenophobia will be posted online if they have to leave. Owner lets them stay.
Regular customers leave. Shop closes down later that year.

If you want to keep politics out of magic you can't anymore.

Magic is going in a hate filled direction that I don't condone. Society is as well. People use a magical term "racism" to shut down any conversation they don't want to listen to. Why? Because I'm saying things that contradict their belief system. A belief system they won't re-think.

The sadist part is that these people don't even understand they are being manipulated. They won't understand until the hate mob they were once apart of turns on them. That is happening to gay men as the LGBTQ community now sees gay men as too privileged. Privilege being another buzz term to shut down conversations.

The news media is your government. You aren't supporting some counter culture movement. The government wants you to loose your mind and burn things. Why? Because while you're distracted they are destroying the financial system to further in debt you. 9 ish trillion dollars printed in a month. Meaning food will cost more money, everything will cost more money.

If you do a quick news search you will find many deaths and murders this past month. Very few if any of them are being manipulated for a political movement. I find it very sad that a mans death is being used this way. This is mostly because it's a presidential election year.

We are pretty close if not already in the era of thought crimes and George Owells 1984.

If you really want to argue against me. I'm probably just going to refer you to youtube videos that explain the same thing I already have.
Spot on! 10 / 10

Now here is what I want to ask you: Lot's of people feel this way, what can we actually do? You cannot speak out pubiclly on social media because it's not safe. You can lose your job / be humiliated and become a target for violence. This is tyranny. This type of atmosphere is going to make it so people have to gather in secret just to speak the common sense things we all know are true!
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Spot on! 10 / 10

Now here is what I want to ask you: Lot's of people feel this way, what can we actually do? You cannot speak out pubiclly on social media because it's not safe. You can lose your job / be humiliated and become a target for violence. This is tyranny. This type of atmosphere is going to make it so people have to gather in secret just to speak the common sense things we all know are true!
And systematic oppression of minorities is not tyranny? Because that is what people are trying to change. :thinking:
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
SpeedGrapher wrote:
3 years ago
The game is now corrupted by communists and liberals that don't actually care about the game at all.
There is nothing at all that can be done about the bannings. They are final.
We can keep discussing it but we are wasting time.
The ideology of wanting to ban these cards is based around modern progressiveness which constantly tells you to do something only because it makes them feel good for 5 minutes. Or to manipulate a voting demographic. These people don't care about you or your well being. Please stop listening to them.

A clear example of this is the following.
Example: Don't group together in large groups due to Corona virus.
At the same time.
Example: Grouping together to protest is still encouraged even during the pandemic.

Magic will be known as that racist card game. No level of inclusion matters. We already have trans planeswalkers.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
So nothing will ever be enough to pass the purity test.

The combination of Corona virus and this scandal will drastically lower the number of players.

People that say they hold the beliefs of, include all, everyone is equal, peace and love. They are lying to you when they say things like that. When you question them. Their retort always is "What are you a racist?" to try to force their view points on you.

Another example.
The heavily liberal crowd enters a magic shop. Everyone is welcoming. Totally fine with new people. They participate in a tournaments for a month or two. Then afterwards these people are just there hanging out. Not buying anything ever. When asked to leave because their loitering at this point. They refuse to leave using threats of racism, sexism, transphobia, xenophobia will be posted online if they have to leave. Owner lets them stay.
Regular customers leave. Shop closes down later that year.

If you want to keep politics out of magic you can't anymore.

Magic is going in a hate filled direction that I don't condone. Society is as well. People use a magical term "racism" to shut down any conversation they don't want to listen to. Why? Because I'm saying things that contradict their belief system. A belief system they won't re-think.

The sadist part is that these people don't even understand they are being manipulated. They won't understand until the hate mob they were once apart of turns on them. That is happening to gay men as the LGBTQ community now sees gay men as too privileged. Privilege being another buzz term to shut down conversations.

The news media is your government. You aren't supporting some counter culture movement. The government wants you to loose your mind and burn things. Why? Because while you're distracted they are destroying the financial system to further in debt you. 9 ish trillion dollars printed in a month. Meaning food will cost more money, everything will cost more money.

If you do a quick news search you will find many deaths and murders this past month. Very few if any of them are being manipulated for a political movement. I find it very sad that a mans death is being used this way. This is mostly because it's a presidential election year.

We are pretty close if not already in the era of thought crimes and George Owells 1984.

If you really want to argue against me. I'm probably just going to refer you to youtube videos that explain the same thing I already have.
Spot on! 10 / 10

Now here is what I want to ask you: Lot's of people feel this way, what can we actually do? You cannot speak out pubiclly on social media because it's not safe. You can lose your job / be humiliated and become a target for violence. This is tyranny. This type of atmosphere is going to make it so people have to gather in secret just to speak the common sense things we all know are true!
Awww....two peas in a pod. Maybe the two of you could also share an extra large tinfoil hat so you can more intimately pat yourselves on the back for not being sheeple victims to liberal conspiracies or whatever nonsense InfoWars is peddling these days. Feel free to take your lame views and victim complexes elsewhere.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Spot on! 10 / 10

Now here is what I want to ask you: Lot's of people feel this way, what can we actually do? You cannot speak out pubiclly on social media because it's not safe. You can lose your job / be humiliated and become a target for violence. This is tyranny. This type of atmosphere is going to make it so people have to gather in secret just to speak the common sense things we all know are true!
And systematic oppression of minorities is not tyranny? Because that is what people are trying to change. :thinking:
You cannot take away the rights of the people whose opinions you don't agree with. Even if you think it's a "really good cause". But You don't care about rights of those sub human apes because your cause is morally correct to you.
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Spot on! 10 / 10

Now here is what I want to ask you: Lot's of people feel this way, what can we actually do? You cannot speak out pubiclly on social media because it's not safe. You can lose your job / be humiliated and become a target for violence. This is tyranny. This type of atmosphere is going to make it so people have to gather in secret just to speak the common sense things we all know are true!
And systematic oppression of minorities is not tyranny? Because that is what people are trying to change. :thinking:
You cannot take away the rights of the people whose opinions you don't agree with. Even if you think it's a "really good cause". But You don't care about rights of those sub human apes because your cause is morally correct to you.
Nobody is trying to take away the rights of other people. That's kinda the whole point. Equal rights for all, regardless of ethnicity, gender, sexual identity, and/or religion. Removing systematic racism won't take away your rights, but it will give equal rights to those who are different from you, and that is what you and people like you fear.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

feels like this thread will eventually get locked like the one in the Commander forum.

so one last post. It's a sad thing that cards got banned outside of gameplay reasons - did not expect mtg to become something like this. That's all.
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Spot on! 10 / 10

Now here is what I want to ask you: Lot's of people feel this way, what can we actually do? You cannot speak out pubiclly on social media because it's not safe. You can lose your job / be humiliated and become a target for violence. This is tyranny. This type of atmosphere is going to make it so people have to gather in secret just to speak the common sense things we all know are true!
And systematic oppression of minorities is not tyranny? Because that is what people are trying to change. :thinking:
You cannot take away the rights of the people whose opinions you don't agree with. Even if you think it's a "really good cause". But You don't care about rights of those sub human apes because your cause is morally correct to you.
Emphasis mine.

Now that you've outed yourself as a disgusting human being, it's even easier to mock and dismiss you. You should know something though: your ideology is in its death throes. Sure, it may not go down without a fight, but you're already firmly on the wrong side of history.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

this thread is starting to get out of hand so I'll be locking it-motleyslayer

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