MaRo makes a comment about the secondary market

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Post by Hermes_ » 3 years ago

I wasn't 100% sure whee to put this,so if the mods want to move it that's cool



Q:Hey Marc, I know that you probably won't answer this, but I really wanted you to pass this along if possible. Double masters while being a cool set (I am assuming), is priced out of my range. While you don't control pricing, I just wanted you to know that 300 dollars a box (before gouging) is going to really spoil a lot of the communities good will towards your company. I know that company line is "it's not for everyone", but Mr. Rosewater it's a bridge to far for this 15 year invested player.

A:I want to have a honest discussion with all of you. While making Magic the best game it can be is important to us, we are also a business. Part of our job as a business is to recognize all the various audiences and create products to serve them. That's how we make money - finding player desires and filling them with products.



One of our audiences are invested players with a higher price threshold. That is, there are players who are willing to spend a lot of money for highly desired cards, be it reprints or alternate versions. It's in our interest to make products for those players (things like Double Masters and collector boosters). Note that we take great care to make those products something that group is happy to buy.



The issue is those desirable cards are also desired by players who that product is not aimed for. Desirable cards are desirable cards. So when we make these products, that group gets upset because the prices seem so high. It feels like an insult. We made something they'd like, but we priced them out of being able to purchase it.



I get the ill will, but I also feel like not making products for that audience is unfair for both that audience and us. So I'm turning to all of you that feel upset. How can we make these products in a way that allows that audience to get what they want without all of you feeling like we're doing harm to you?
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Post by Atraxian » 3 years ago

So...
Everybody needs reprints to play the game.
Everybody WANTS reprints for the game to be affordable.
Masers sets are the easiest and cheapest to make, yet they are artificially inflated in price.

Yet MaRo pretty much said that they are designed only for the richest people playing MtG, which incidentally are not the ones who need the reprints because if they can afford to buy the masters sets, they surely can afford to spend the same money on the artificially overpriced reprints.

Masters sets should be sets for everyone because everyone needs them! The "this product is not for everyone" should not apply to masters sets.

They can go ahead and make all the secret lairs and collectors editions they want as long as there is an affordable alternative, but masters sets DO NOT HAVE a cheaper alternative and pricing people out of the game because "that product is not for them" is idiotic to say the least.
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Post by Lifeless » 3 years ago

"Sorry you're poor lul" - Mark Rosewater.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Upon seeing the message and his call for feedback, I sent him the following email. I doubt I'll hear back, as why would he bother writing me back, but I'm putting it here because why not.
Dear Mark,

Allow me to preface the email by thanking you for everything you're doing. The sunny demeanour and contagious passion with which you add a layer of transparency to various goings on at Wizards is unparalleled, and it must be hard to act as a public face of sorts for the game's development. You recently made a Blogatog post about the company's perception of masters sets, asking for feedback.

It's perfectly fine to have products aimed at whales. If collector boosters and Secret Lairs are selling, then that's great news for you. However, it's important to maintain a delineation between such aesthetic "reskins" and access to actual game pieces. Charging a premium for very relevant cards you cannot otherwise acquire creates a barrier to entry. Even a casual experience like Commander is best enjoyed with good utility cards greasing up the deck's wheels.

I will admit that this is a novel situation for Wizards as a company, as the player base explosion coupled with increased popularity of Commander makes various cards from olden times of comparatively tiny print runs explode in desirability. You do reprint more than you ever have before, on the whole (what happened in 2019?). However, demand continues to outpace supply, and tossing limited print run sets with a high price point at the problem does little to actually resolve the situation. This is admittedly tricky to manoeuvre, as there are actual livelihoods attached to card prices in the form of various vendors, but you were previously able to provide desirable reprints in standard priced product like Conspiracy and Battlebond.

I don't have much personal stake in the matter, as pretty much the only card I'm awaiting a reprint of so I can acquire it is Oracle of Mul Daya. However, back in 2014 I was able to build a budget Tromokratis deck with a 2 euro per card limit, and include a Mana Vault, Rhystic Study and Cyclonic Rift. This sounds like a joke now. The deck also included Gilded Lotus, which was inflating at a comparable rate to Mana Vault before becoming far more available after its DOM reprint. A mythic rarity masters set appearance of the Vault did little to increase its accessibility. Even Gilded Lotus is now nearly double what it was at its lowest after its recent standard set reprint. It's not just the whales that want access to cards. The fact Rhystic Study and Cyclonic Rift got so expensive stems from the fact most Commander players with blue decks do.

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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

I posted in a reply on Blogatog, but this notion that reprint sets full of in-demand cards should only be for whales is insulting. I'm %$#% tired of it. I need really really want enemy fetches for Commander. Their prices are obscene. Not only should they be reprinted, but they should be reprinted in a Standard legal set. Insta-ban them in Pioneer, but hiding behind the argument that "they cause too much shuffling in Standard" doesn't play anymore, if it ever did.

Even Maro's response and subsequent request for feedback obviates the disconnect between WotC and its player base; he seems surprised about the backlash. I do pretty well for myself, but I'm not going to spend the equivalent of a car payment on a booster box. Gross.
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Post by folding_music » 3 years ago

it's been too many years for him to pretend to just be the innocent sheltered designer :)))) he knows how bad the prices for competitive cards are at this point and the only thing he can think to say is that he's grateful the buyers have become a viable demographic?

to be honest, I don't need any card, I've withdrawn from the idea of playing with anyone who does. I like to use the cards I actually have and it stops me walking around all day thinking Metalworker Metalworker Metalworker, you need a Metalworker Metalworker Metalworker

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Post by idSurge » 3 years ago

I have multiple decks built out of Masters reprints. What exactly is the problem here?

Are these new sets going to be double what Masters where?
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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

As a follow-up, and this is me reading between the lines, it appears that Commander Legends will be priced similar to Battlebond and be the "innovation" set, while Double Masters is meant to be the "whale" set this year. That would be good news if Commander Legends is where we are getting the fetch reprints.


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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

This is a bunch of annoying touchy feely high complexity bullcrap when what they need to do is put more value in there and lower the price. Not rocket science.

The first masters set was basically perfect barring the print run. Put that level of value in there and make it unlimited print run and keep that price point and the problem will be solved; they'll make a killing and run the prices on stuff down reasonable levels again.

The prices are just too damned high right now. Here's a list of 40 dollar cards I bought for ~10 bucks (sometimes waaaay less, e.g. rift) that see barely any play in any other formats (barring legacy which is really not a large price driver).
This pricing is *ridiculous* and it only persists because Wizards is being overly cautious with the reprint equity; they could do 5x the volume they do on these reprint sets and it'd be fine.

I would probably keep 10+ decks built but these prices basically force me to sell stuff. I'm not holding onto a $10,000 position in commander staples primed for a reprint, but I'd gladly hold $2500.

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

Now, before this topic goes way out of hand in blaming Maro of the high pricing, I feel the need to point out that while Maro is the most publicly engaged of the WotC staff involved in MTG he has little to no say on the actual pricing of product. The best he can do is gather feedback and hand it to the people in charge.

That said, peoples grievances regarding the pricing is entirely reasonable. These products are literally to expensive for the people who actually need them, I.e. the average magic player, myself included. I am on a limited income due to being on a disability income for mental illness, and Commander is pretty much all I play when it comes to MTG (well, and draft). And there is little chance I would ever be able to afford this product and similar ones. I got lucky with a few of the later Masters sets due to an unexpected windfall, but I can't rely on something that random to be able to afford the ability to get sorely needed reprints.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
This pricing is *ridiculous* and it only persists because Wizards is being overly cautious with the reprint equity; they could do 5x the volume they do on these reprint sets and it'd be fine.
amazed at how monstrous the price of Worldly Tutor has become. :omg:

picked up my playset about 5 years ago at a trash card binder in a store for 25 cents each... not joking at all. Maybe the store owner did not know their actual value? Think I sold off 2 or3 before the covid pandemic hit. The guys who bought from me are all edh players.
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Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
Now, before this topic goes way out of hand in blaming Maro of the high pricing, I feel the need to point out that while Maro is the most publicly engaged of the WotC staff involved in MTG he has little to no say on the actual pricing of product. The best he can do is gather feedback and hand it to the people in charge.
agreed on this..
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I would never bother blaming Maro for this - you know exactly who's to blame. Starts with H and ends with Asbro.

And for the record I think the unlimited print run of Modern Horizons at the 5.99 or whatever price point more than proves that the model of ~twice the cost of a normal booster but chock full of value will be successful at 1) selling a crapload and 2) making prices reasonable. All the prices on MH cards are totally reasonable (barring perhaps a couple chase mythics in Wrenn and urza, and even those I think it's acceptable given they are new cards -- especially when their ridiculous prices keeps the real chase cards, the lands, so cheap).

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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

Yeah, I wouldn't blame Maro for this - don't shoot the messenger, etc.

I will echo other complaints re: high prices though. I was fairly excited when Double Masters was announced, because it sounds interesting and I've enjoyed drafting other Masters sets. However, the price point is... sort of insane. MSRP of Ultimate Masters was $14/pack, and that was billed as the 'no, seriously, we're pulling out the stops and packing all the value in' set. Raising the price even further may be reasonable from a pure value perspective due to the second rare, but it looks bad from an 'I actually want to play the set' perspective.

Ignoring the financial value of the set entirely, I view drafting primarily as an experience - I'm willing to pay some amount of money to spend an hour or so drafting and a few hours of playing games. If I win prizes or get any valuable cards, that's great, but I don't go in expecting to make my money back. So, doing a draft is ultimately competing against every other way I could spend my time, whether that be watching a movie, going out to a fancy dinner, or playing a new game. And when the price point gets to be this high, I'd pretty much always prefer to do something else instead. And if I did end up doing a draft and getting some worthwhile cards from it, I would feel pretty compelled to trade or sell them off pretty much immediately to recoup my investment, which is a thing I'd rather not do.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

magic is a company it is not the communist state department of everyone get everyting

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
magic is a company it is not the communist state department of everyone get everyting
That's pretty reductionist abut the game. In essence you're not wrong, but at the same time gating the more iconic cards in the game via finance kinda stinks. No one is asking for Mana Crypt to hit the dollar bin, we're just not all lifetime players who picked up fetches and reserved list bombs while they weren't impacted by secondary market scarcity. It wouldn't even necessarily take a whole lot more reprinting to make a whole lot of the community more happy.

From personal experience losing a game to someone else's wallet sucks. And that's no sour grapes towards the player, if you own em, play em. I just would really like the opportunity to do the same without breaking the bank.
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Post by Atraxian » 3 years ago

Re-reading the product announcement article, what is even more baffling is that regular Double Masters is supposed to be the "affordable" version of the product, because they are planning to sell whales the "VIP Edition"...
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Atraxian wrote:
3 years ago
Re-reading the product announcement article, what is even more baffling is that regular Double Masters is supposed to be the "affordable" version of the product, because they are planning to sell whales the "VIP Edition"...
Imagine being that oblivious to your customer base. I get that they're a company designed to make money, but damn. As if Secret Lairs weren't already an excuse for printing your own money.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
3 years ago
I posted in a reply on Blogatog, but this notion that reprint sets full of in-demand cards should only be for whales is insulting. I'm %$#% tired of it. I need really really want enemy fetches for Commander. Their prices are obscene. Not only should they be reprinted, but they should be reprinted in a Standard legal set. Insta-ban them in Pioneer, but hiding behind the argument that "they cause too much shuffling in Standard" doesn't play anymore, if it ever did.

Even Maro's response and subsequent request for feedback obviates the disconnect between WotC and its player base; he seems surprised about the backlash. I do pretty well for myself, but I'm not going to spend the equivalent of a car payment on a booster box. Gross.
I think you're missing the big picture as to why this is happening. Hasbro is forcing Wizards of the Coast to produce more types of MTG products in order to artificially elevate sales number growth: Secret Lairs, Premium Boosters, Signature Spellbooks, Duel Decks, Planeswalker Decks, EDH / Commander Decks, and a ton of auxiliary "experimental" sets (such as Conspiracy, Battlebond, Jump Start, Masters sets, Mystery Boosters, etc.) each year instead of just 1 supplementary set each Summer. Apparently this was part of a 5 year plan dating all the way back to 2016.

The release of these MTG products leads to two results: It keeps earnings growth estimates up to keep stock holders and inverters happy, and secondly (but most importantly) gives the illusion of elevated value through sales numbers growth instead of declining value If / when Hasbro has decided that Wizards of the Coast has peaked as they sell the company to maximize profits. Since both Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast own the rights to the Magic: the Gathering IP it may be forced to be discontinued unless another company buys out Wizards of the Coast and screws the game up even more.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

Atraxian wrote:
3 years ago
Re-reading the product announcement article, what is even more baffling is that regular Double Masters is supposed to be the "affordable" version of the product, because they are planning to sell whales the "VIP Edition"...
price of the VIP edition is brutal..
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

The more I think about it I think this crap will continue escalating until one finally pops. Eventually people are going to buy sextuple masters collectors elite super whale edition for $99999 and it's going to fail to live up to market expectations severely, and it'll likely cascade through the market.

Right now there's still this infinite confidence that magic card prices will not really go down despite there being in general far more inventory than anyone wants to play with -- because of sealed product hoarders and people holding 20 copies of whatever card.

Essentially it's getting to be kinda like US currency which is held afloat only by everyone maintaining huge cash reserves.

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Post by clariwench » 3 years ago

It's sad that the "whales" will still buy the VIP Edition boosters. Just because they're willing to spend the money doesn't mean they should be ripped off and abused by Wizards. Make a $100 product that's worth it and even non-"whales" would want to buy it.

I keep using "whales" in quotes because it's being horrifically overused lately to mean even people who buy $30 Secret Lairs. Someone who would buy a box of VIP Edition boosters would be a whale.
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Post by Candlemane » 3 years ago

What I don't like about this is the pricing, but let me elaborate. The better off with money in the disposable kind will get these cards. Yay, however while some of these hit the market, how many? I can't afford these outright, but what if the people who can, which likely have a vested interest in their monetary value, keep them up to sell off? What if the prices don't come down much at all? I feel like this is creating a class difference in MTG, where the richer customers are just getting more and more of the stuff that's needed for base play of the game and keep up with people in the shop, and some of us might have to wait years (looking at my old Jarad deck) to build something affordable.

That leads to being out gunned when you sit down, and power level has only increased from the many seats I sat in before Covid. People want power and want to play, but nothing had really been tempered before I couldn't play paper, and Ikoria has done NOTHING to keep me from my fears.

I'll end this with the question: What about Commander Legends? What's the price, Wizards? What would you have sold it for before you decided not to have a hand in the market at all (Shhh, spot laughing)? How much do you want from me, from us, to even play your game before it's left to people who can afford 32 Commander decks built in 3 months?

EDIT:
I forgot to address the last question from MaRo.

What would help is if you left the normal cards to us at an affordable price (when it wasn't Covid, you sly... words), and let the people with more money have the reskins. People with money always buy the shiny alters. Leave that to them and let us have some darned food, not your cake. Everyone still gets something, and we still get out pieces. Oh, and make the print run usefully large, darn it.

[frustrated cruse words inserted here and edited]
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I think that they can only go so long ignoring the secondary market before they realize they have to acknowledge the impact that it has on prices of cards and the ability people have to play the game, even at a casual level.

So far Double Masters looks like it will be targeted towards the EDH/Commander crowd, which has really grown over the past 5-6 years or so. Which has caused prices to jump by a lot.

The way they've designed the set should hopefully allow them to drop a lot more copies of cards into the market

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Post by idSurge » 3 years ago

They dont ignore the secondary market. They very clearly price (or recommend pricing) on their product to maximize reprint equity and prevent people's collectibles from devaluing for the most part.
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Post by Feyd_Ruin » 3 years ago

Things used to be easier. The reserve list, by definition, shows that WotC once openly acknowledged the secondary market.

One could easily argue that they are now legally bound to it as a Promissory Estoppel, and as such it would be "grandfathered" in as acceptable (since revoking it to align with current laws would also put them legally liable) — as long as they never add to it.

Now days, however, the laws have changed and they have to walk a tight rope.

Reprinting cards to lower prices is, by itself, an absolute acknowledgement of the secondary market. This is why they can never refer to the prices of cards, especially with regards to reprints. They reprint cards that are "desirable" or to "increase supply" in order for more people to play with them. While these two things directly affect price, they can say they're doing the former without acknowledging the latter. It's very much a tight rope.

As to the real question at hand:
How can we make these products in a way that allows that audience to get what they want without all of you feeling like we're doing harm to you?
Reprint sets should be used to increase supply of desirable cards.
Secret Lair, Promos, Special Pack versions, Alternate Arts, Alternate Frames, etc, should be for the big spenders.


It's the exact same as regular cards vs foil cards that's been here for years. Some people just want cards to play with, so they can enjoy the game, while some love foiling out their entire deck. Give the people who just want to play the game more access to desirable, playable cards, and give the people who like bling fancy versions that we awe at.

Want proof that this will work?
Sol Ring|c17, normal version, is sub $5 from multiple sets.
Sol Ring|G05, Judge Reward, is $190.
Sol Ring|MPS, Inventions, is $345.

And sol ring isn't some special case either.
Lotus Petal|mb1, normal version, is $8.
Lotus Petal|v09, From the Vault, is $37
Lotus Petal|MPS, Inventions, is $125.


Bling caters to that higher-spending audience, which they will pay for, while basic reprints (should) cater to all players. We fully expect to pay more for fancy versions, and many will pay handsomely for it. But average players need to not be priced out of the game because basic format-defining cards have their demand so much higher then their supply.

This would also directly help you to pretend the secondary market doesn't exist. This set isn't more expensive because it contains cards that the secondary market has driven the price up on, they're more expensive only because they're special, rare versions.
  • Game players win because they can buy reasonably priced products with cards they need in it.
  • High end players win because they can buy super fancy versions to bling out there deck.
  • Collectors win because they'll transition more to the bling versions that fetch high prices.
  • LGS wins because they can sell to all of the above.
  • WotC wins because all of the above are buying.
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