MTG, the Corona-Virus Pandemic, and future events.

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Card Slinger J
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
last night was my first time playing Magic at a store since Covid started. It took a bit of getting used to with the plastic dividing players and not cutting decks and what not but it was fun. It was a 3 round night but I enjoyed seeing everyone again
I take it your Local Game Store still has In-Person Organized Play Events? Mine no longer runs In-Person Events so whether or not the Zendikar Rising Pre-Release will still take place is still in limbo currently. With the way things are going right now I'm only getting at least one or two EDH / Commander games every Saturday which is still better than nothing. Without anyone showing up to participate for In-Person Organized Play it almost makes Paper Magic look more like a traditional board game akin to Monopoly or Scrabble rather than being a product that's publicly advertised through In-Person Organized Play.

I think that's sort of the problem with a lot of these Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games where they need that public advertising presence and prize support in order to be successful. Luckily In-Person Casual Play can help boost the morale that's missing from In-Person Organized Play being suspended at LGSs for the foreseeable future. It worked for the Dragon Ball Z TCG / CCG by Score Entertainment which then evolved into Panini where sadly they only saw the game as a short-term cash grab due to a deal they made with Bandai Namco when Dragon Ball Super rose to popularity.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
last night was my first time playing Magic at a store since Covid started. It took a bit of getting used to with the plastic dividing players and not cutting decks and what not but it was fun. It was a 3 round night but I enjoyed seeing everyone again
I take it your Local Game Store still has In-Person Organized Play Events? Mine no longer runs In-Person Events so whether or not the Zendikar Rising Pre-Release will still take place is still in limbo currently. With the way things are going right now I'm only getting at least one or two EDH / Commander games every Saturday which is still better than nothing. Without anyone showing up to participate for In-Person Organized Play it almost makes Paper Magic look more like a traditional board game akin to Monopoly or Scrabble rather than being a product that's publicly advertised through In-Person Organized Play.

I think that's sort of the problem with a lot of these Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games where they need that public advertising presence and prize support in order to be successful. Luckily In-Person Casual Play can help boost the morale that's missing from In-Person Organized Play being suspended at LGSs for the foreseeable future. It worked for the Dragon Ball Z TCG / CCG by Score Entertainment which then evolved into Panini where sadly they only saw the game as a short-term cash grab due to a deal they made with Bandai Namco when Dragon Ball Super rose to popularity.
They were able to run the event in the Companion app, they've been allowing people to play in store since the Province I live in started their Phase 3 of re-opening.

The prize support was kinda generous, I got a regular pack and 2 promo packs for doing okay

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

I wonder how Local Game Stores will be able to adapt to the USPS (United States Postal Service) potentially going out of business next month due to concerns of voter fraud / suppression with mail in voting in the upcoming U.S. Election? Since people won't be able to go to their local polling places to cast their votes / ballots due to the pandemic they're forced to do it by mail instead. The way I see this being bad for Local Game Stores is that they'll no longer be able to sell card singles online to have it delivered by mail to their customers without the orders either getting delayed or refunded. It sucks for players who don't like having to buy sealed products in order to complete their decks due to the lottery aspect and the time constraints that come with it. Remember having to wait to pull or trade for that one specific card or playset you needed for your deck before the Internet made it more convenient for you?

LGSs don't want to risk ordering old sealed products that players are wanting specific singles for in their decks because it just sits on their shelves collecting dust while the newer sealed products fly off the shelves more. It also creates a scenario where players are less inclined to buy specific card singles that these stores already have available to complete their decks due to the fact that it takes forever for someone to Buylist singles that these players are needing for their decks. So what do they do? Proxy them instead of course. Most people who sell Paper Magic singles online ship through USPS instead of FedEx which is slightly more expensive but isn't as tied to the USPS like with Amazon Prime. Even though the USPS is protected by the U.S. Constitution it can still be inactive for e-commerce sales as well as not being able to pay your monthly bills on time. Then you would have to pay your bills via e-mail address or Social Media account to your state province or government which I suppose is possible.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I don't know how many stores in the US rely on online sales or run websites but up in Canada I don't really think many stores outside of larger markets really run much of an online store to sell from. I could just be completely wrong how often stores sell online due to the fact I rely primarily on supporting local stores, then go to Face to Face first for online orders.

I've noticed more stores (especially ones in larger areas) I follow on social media are starting to run events again, which is probably a good sign

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

So I just recently heard that If Biden gets elected as U.S. President he says that he'll lockdown the country again to fight against COVID-19 If recommended by health officials. These same officials (not the one's from that hoax earlier) asked Trump that very same request but turned it down as we've already learned the cost of what the last lockdown did to the U.S. Economy. We still don't have any full details of how many Local Game Stores went bankrupt from the last lockdown which is more than just a fraction of over 3,000 stores nationwide which is probably close to 2,000 still in business by now If I had to guess. GAMA (Game Manufacturers Association) didn't even bother to keep track of how many businesses were lost either.

One of my Local Game Stores recently threatened to kick out anyone who wears their face masks inappropriately except for when they're eating or drinking. Other than that I helped support my Local Game Store last Saturday by spending $100 on Double Masters booster packs and got some pretty good pulls as well. Some of the cards I pulled I managed to sell for store credit to buy more packs though it didn't last long. Still waiting for our shipment of Jumpstart and Chandra Spellbook to come in which got delayed due to the pandemic of course. Nobody got any of the Secret Lair Enemy Fetchlands either which I think got delayed as well unless it's going to be in the Collector's Edition for Zendikar Rising.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

One of my local stores is doing 5 prerelease events for Zendikar Rising. I don't know if I'll do all 5 but I'll probably do 3. I'm not sure if I'd like to commit all weekend to it, especially considering I'd have to be in groups of people the whole time

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Can't help but feel sorry for Local Game Store (LGS) Owners / Employees in San Francisco who lost their jobs from looting and rioting in the streets no thanks to the California Government de-funding the police to keep that sort of thing in check which has now drove all those business owners and employees to do business elsewhere in the country. I'm just thankful and blessed that I live in the Midwest where the cost of living isn't as high as in these coastal areas especially with taxes and the pandemic going on right now.

But yeah It's been pretty quiet in my neck of the woods. I'm actually seeing less people show up at the Local Game Store I go to on Saturdays which is weird considering that the other LGS I go to that isn't built for In-Store Play normally has about 6-7 people show up on Friday nights and perhaps on Saturdays If they're lucky. Did finally manage to get in Jumpstart however our local distributor only supplied us with one booster box while we got plenty of the Chandra Spellbook products which were hanging on the wall in the retail area.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

The pandemic really impacted the availability of Jumpstart from what I've heard.

In regards to the amount of people playing in store though, I can see it taking some time to return to pre-covid levels. This is probably going to be a mix of stores only being allowed to have so many people inside and also some people staying away from groups of people for a while longer. Some people I know just don't trust groups of people right now. Others are also higher risk for getting covid

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
The pandemic really impacted the availability of Jumpstart from what I've heard.

In regards to the amount of people playing in store though, I can see it taking some time to return to pre-covid levels. This is probably going to be a mix of stores only being allowed to have so many people inside and also some people staying away from groups of people for a while longer. Some people I know just don't trust groups of people right now. Others are also higher risk for getting covid
Still waiting for it in Scandinavia, latest news on it is that we'll get it in October, if we are lucky.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Can't help but feel sorry for Local Game Store (LGS) Owners / Employees in San Francisco who lost their jobs from looting and rioting in the streets no thanks to the California Government de-funding the police to keep that sort of thing in check which has now drove all those business owners and employees to do business elsewhere in the country. I'm just thankful and blessed that I live in the Midwest where the cost of living isn't as high as in these coastal areas especially with taxes and the pandemic going on right now.

But yeah It's been pretty quiet in my neck of the woods. I'm actually seeing less people show up at the Local Game Store I go to on Saturdays which is weird considering that the other LGS I go to that isn't built for In-Store Play normally has about 6-7 people show up on Friday nights and perhaps on Saturdays If they're lucky. Did finally manage to get in Jumpstart however our local distributor only supplied us with one booster box while we got plenty of the Chandra Spellbook products which were hanging on the wall in the retail area.
Has it impacted secondary market card prices yet? How long until people realize the paper versions are useless I wonder.
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

I'm able to go to my LGS for Commander every two weeks. There were a ton of people there. So many that, if it's the same way tonight, I may have to rethink it. I only have a passing interest in other Constructed formats, and I gots to have my fix! Arena is pretty good for what it is, but that kind of experience is not my preferred way to play Magic by a mile.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Can't help but feel sorry for Local Game Store (LGS) Owners / Employees in San Francisco who lost their jobs from looting and rioting in the streets no thanks to the California Government de-funding the police to keep that sort of thing in check which has now drove all those business owners and employees to do business elsewhere in the country. I'm just thankful and blessed that I live in the Midwest where the cost of living isn't as high as in these coastal areas especially with taxes and the pandemic going on right now.

But yeah It's been pretty quiet in my neck of the woods. I'm actually seeing less people show up at the Local Game Store I go to on Saturdays which is weird considering that the other LGS I go to that isn't built for In-Store Play normally has about 6-7 people show up on Friday nights and perhaps on Saturdays If they're lucky. Did finally manage to get in Jumpstart however our local distributor only supplied us with one booster box while we got plenty of the Chandra Spellbook products which were hanging on the wall in the retail area.
Has it impacted secondary market card prices yet? How long until people realize the paper versions are useless I wonder.
I think there's been more of a retraction within the Secondary Market due to people unable to attend In-Person Events at Local Game Stores. A lot of cards that normally would've been expensive in Standard right now are actually pretty cheap except for Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath because Uro. As far as Eternal formats go a lot of older cards are still holding their market value pretty well mainly in EDH / Commander and cEDH which got a tremendous boost from Double Masters which luckily wasn't in short supply like Jumpstart was.

I still see people show up to play EDH / Commander In-Person at one of the LGSs I attend to though it's usually about 10 people or less. I wasn't able to get a 4 player pod going last Saturday cause one of my friends was busy buying stuff for Warhammer. Another friend and I were also working on our Pioneer decks, mine being Gruul and my friends' being Jund and they actually ran pretty well. My friends and I have mostly been trying to catch up on what we've missed since I've been away for 6 months in quarantine and so far we've almost got everything caught up, hopefully.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

there were about 4 of us playing commander at a store today. I'm hoping for reasonable turnouts for modern tomorrow and pioneer Saturday. Although anything large is probably still not gonna happen as much as I'd like it to

I feel commander might recover better than other formats as is more about the social aspect than anything else

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Post by Peterhausenn » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Has it impacted secondary market card prices yet? How long until people realize the paper versions are useless I wonder.
why would paper versions be useless?

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Peterhausenn wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Has it impacted secondary market card prices yet? How long until people realize the paper versions are useless I wonder.
why would paper versions be useless?
Large paper tourneys cancelled indefinitely. Small FNM tourneys are on hold until next year at the earliest. Meanwhile, digital players can use their cards 24/7, play games with friends, and take part in both large and small tournaments, starting right this very second. It's only a matter of time before people start to question why they are spending money on cardboard they cannot even play with. When that happens the formats that rotate and the sets that fuel them will crash in paper.

Eternal formats, and the whale type players who get into them will likely ride out the storm. If the world ever does self correct, then maybe they will have a chance to play in paper again. But the standard seasons that come and go....those paper cards are nigh worthless in my mind.
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Peterhausenn wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Has it impacted secondary market card prices yet? How long until people realize the paper versions are useless I wonder.
why would paper versions be useless?
Large paper tourneys cancelled indefinitely. Small FNM tourneys are on hold until next year at the earliest. Meanwhile, digital players can use their cards 24/7, play games with friends, and take part in both large and small tournaments, starting right this very second. It's only a matter of time before people start to question why they are spending money on cardboard they cannot even play with. When that happens the formats that rotate and the sets that fuel them will crash in paper.

Eternal formats, and the whale type players who get into them will likely ride out the storm. If the world ever does self correct, then maybe they will have a chance to play in paper again. But the standard seasons that come and go....those paper cards are nigh worthless in my mind.
People stopping to play in paper tourneys and FNM tourneys does not mean the death of the game. People are still playing with friends, the game is still going strong and selling a lot. And considering that there are several vaccines in the pipeline, it'll be back to normal within a year or two.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Peterhausenn wrote:
3 years ago


why would paper versions be useless?
Large paper tourneys cancelled indefinitely. Small FNM tourneys are on hold until next year at the earliest. Meanwhile, digital players can use their cards 24/7, play games with friends, and take part in both large and small tournaments, starting right this very second. It's only a matter of time before people start to question why they are spending money on cardboard they cannot even play with. When that happens the formats that rotate and the sets that fuel them will crash in paper.

Eternal formats, and the whale type players who get into them will likely ride out the storm. If the world ever does self correct, then maybe they will have a chance to play in paper again. But the standard seasons that come and go....those paper cards are nigh worthless in my mind.
People stopping to play in paper tourneys and FNM tourneys does not mean the death of the game. People are still playing with friends, the game is still going strong and selling a lot. And considering that there are several vaccines in the pipeline, it'll be back to normal within a year or two.
Even if we assume what you are saying actually happens (highly dubious) a year or two is an eternity in terms of MTG seasons / culture. I will grant you that some non-zero portion of the population has friends and family that also play competitively, and those people have a chance to use their cards. But I think any reasonable person must concede that this is a tiny subset of the demographic. Are we to expect these people to step in and buy all the paper cards that the folks who have no family play group would have otherwise purchased? I think not.

It's supply and demand plain and simple to me. You have a huge supply of cards and demand for them that is based solely on a person's perceived value of the card, which is largely based on them being able to actually use it before it rotates.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago



That's right, it took months and the theory was only around since early July but there seems to have been drastic confirmation by Summit that COVID-19 works in a VERY unusual way we didn't initially expect. The best news: we already have the drugs tested and approved that can stop it from killing people who end up hospitalized with it!

Official Sources:

https://elifesciences.org/articles/59177
https://elemental.medium.com/a-supercom ... cb8eba9d63
Thomas Smith wrote: Earlier this summer, the Summit supercomputer at Oak Ridge National Lab in Tennessee set about crunching data on more than 40,000 genes from 17,000 genetic samples in an effort to better understand Covid-19. Summit is the second-fastest computer in the world, but the process — which involved analyzing 2.5 billion genetic combinations — still took more than a week. When Summit was done, researchers analyzed the results. It was, in the words of Dr. Daniel Jacobson, lead researcher and chief scientist for computational systems biology at Oak Ridge, a "eureka moment." The computer had revealed a new theory about how Covid-19 impacts the body: the bradykinin hypothesis. The hypothesis provides a model that explains many aspects of Covid-19, including some of its most bizarre symptoms. It also suggests 10-plus potential treatments, many of which are already FDA approved. Jacobson's group published their results in a paper in the journal eLife in early July.

According to the team's findings, a Covid-19 infection generally begins when the virus enters the body through ACE2 receptors in the nose, (The receptors, which the virus is known to target, are abundant there.) The virus then proceeds through the body, entering cells in other places where ACE2 is also present: the intestines, kidneys, and heart. This likely accounts for at least some of the disease's cardiac and GI symptoms. But once Covid-19 has established itself in the body, things start to get really interesting. According to Jacobson's group, the data Summit analyzed shows that Covid-19 isn't content to simply infect cells that already express lots of ACE2 receptors. Instead, it actively hijacks the body's own systems, tricking it into upregulating ACE2 receptors in places where they're usually expressed at low or medium levels, including the lungs. In this sense, Covid-19 is like a burglar who slips in your unlocked second-floor window and starts to ransack your house. Once inside, though, they don't just take your stuff — they also throw open all your doors and windows so their accomplices can rush in and help pillage more efficiently.

The renin–angiotensin system (RAS) controls many aspects of the circulatory system, including the body's levels of a chemical called bradykinin, which normally helps to regulate blood pressure. According to the team's analysis, when the virus tweaks the RAS, it causes the body's mechanisms for regulating bradykinin to go haywire. Bradykinin receptors are resensitized, and the body also stops effectively breaking down bradykinin. (ACE normally degrades bradykinin, but when the virus downregulates it, it can't do this as effectively.) The end result, the researchers say, is to release a bradykinin storm — a massive, runaway buildup of bradykinin in the body. According to the bradykinin hypothesis, it's this storm that is ultimately responsible for many of Covid-19's deadly effects. Jacobson's team says in their paper that "the pathology of Covid-19 is likely the result of Bradykinin Storms rather than cytokine storms," which had been previously identified in Covid-19 patients, but that "the two may be intricately linked." Other papers had previously identified bradykinin storms as a possible cause of Covid-19's pathologies.

As bradykinin builds up in the body, it dramatically increases vascular permeability. In short, it makes your blood vessels leaky. This aligns with recent clinical data, which increasingly views Covid-19 primarily as a vascular disease, rather than a respiratory one. But Covid-19 still has a massive effect on the lungs. As blood vessels start to leak due to a bradykinin storm, the researchers say, the lungs can fill with fluid. Immune cells also leak out into the lungs, Jacobson's team found, causing inflammation. And Covid-19 has another especially insidious trick. Through another pathway, the team's data shows, it increases production of hyaluronic acid (HLA) in the lungs. HLA is often used in soaps and lotions for its ability to absorb more than 1,000 times its weight in fluid. When it combines with fluid leaking into the lungs, the results are disastrous: It forms a hydrogel, which can fill the lungs in some patients. According to Jacobson, once this happens, "it's like trying to breathe through Jell-O."

This may explain why ventilators have proven less effective in treating advanced Covid-19 than doctors originally expected, based on experiences with other viruses. "It reaches a point where regardless of how much oxygen you pump in, it doesn't matter, because the alveoli in the lungs are filled with this hydrogel," Jacobson says. "The lungs become like a water balloon." Patients can suffocate even while receiving full breathing support. The bradykinin hypothesis also extends to many of Covid-19's effects on the heart. About one in five hospitalized Covid-19 patients have damage to their hearts, even if they never had cardiac issues before. Some of this is likely due to the virus infecting the heart directly through its ACE2 receptors. But the RAS also controls aspects of cardiac contractions and blood pressure. According to the researchers, bradykinin storms could create arrhythmias and low blood pressure, which are often seen in Covid-19 patients.

The bradykinin hypothesis also accounts for Covid-19's neurological effects, which are some of the most surprising and concerning elements of the disease. These symptoms (which include dizziness, seizures, delirium, and stroke) are present in as many as half of hospitalized Covid-19 patients. According to Jacobson and his team, MRI studies in France revealed that many Covid-19 patients have evidence of leaky blood vessels in their brains. Bradykinin — especially at high doses — can also lead to a breakdown of the blood-brain barrier. Under normal circumstances, this barrier acts as a filter between your brain and the rest of your circulatory system. It lets in the nutrients and small molecules that the brain needs to function, while keeping out toxins and pathogens and keeping the brain's internal environment tightly regulated.

If bradykinin storms cause the blood-brain barrier to break down, this could allow harmful cells and compounds into the brain, leading to inflammation, potential brain damage, and many of the neurological symptoms Covid-19 patients experience. Jacobson told me, "It is a reasonable hypothesis that many of the neurological symptoms in Covid-19 could be due to an excess of bradykinin. It has been reported that bradykinin would indeed be likely to increase the permeability of the blood-brain barrier. In addition, similar neurological symptoms have been observed in other diseases that result from an excess of bradykinin." Increased bradykinin levels could also account for other common Covid-19 symptoms. ACE inhibitors — a class of drugs used to treat high blood pressure — have a similar effect on the RAS system as Covid-19, increasing bradykinin levels. In fact, Jacobson and his team note in their paper that "the virus… acts pharmacologically as an ACE inhibitor" — almost directly mirroring the actions of these drugs.

By acting like a natural ACE inhibitor, Covid-19 may be causing the same effects that hypertensive patients sometimes get when they take blood pressure–lowering drugs. ACE inhibitors are known to cause a dry cough and fatigue, two textbook symptoms of Covid-19. And they can potentially increase blood potassium levels, which has also been observed in Covid-19 patients. The similarities between ACE inhibitor side effects and Covid-19 symptoms strengthen the bradykinin hypothesis, the researchers say. ACE inhibitors are also known to cause a loss of taste and smell. Jacobson stresses, though, that this symptom is more likely due to the virus "affecting the cells surrounding olfactory nerve cells" than the direct effects of bradykinin.

Though still an emerging theory, the bradykinin hypothesis explains several other of Covid-19's seemingly bizarre symptoms. Jacobson and his team speculate that leaky vasculature caused by bradykinin storms could be responsible for "Covid toes," a condition involving swollen, bruised toes that some Covid-19 patients experience. Bradykinin can also mess with the thyroid gland, which could produce the thyroid symptoms recently observed in some patients. The bradykinin hypothesis could also explain some of the broader demographic patterns of the disease's spread. The researchers note that some aspects of the RAS system are sex-linked, with proteins for several receptors (such as one called TMSB4X) located on the X chromosome. This means that "women… would have twice the levels of this protein than men," a result borne out by the researchers' data. In their paper, Jacobson's team concludes that this "could explain the lower incidence of Covid-19 induced mortality in women." A genetic quirk of the RAS could be giving women extra protection against the disease.

The bradykinin hypothesis provides a model that "contributes to a better understanding of Covid-19" and "adds novelty to the existing literature," according to scientists Frank van de Veerdonk, Jos WM van der Meer, and Roger Little, who peer-reviewed the team's paper. It predicts nearly all the disease's symptoms, even ones (like bruises on the toes) that at first appear random, and further suggests new treatments for the disease. As Jacobson and team point out, several drugs target aspects of the RAS and are already FDA approved to treat other conditions. They could arguably be applied to treating Covid-19 as well. Several, like danazol, stanozolol, and ecallantide, reduce bradykinin production and could potentially stop a deadly bradykinin storm. Others, like icatibant, reduce bradykinin signaling and could blunt its effects once it's already in the body.

Interestingly, Jacobson's team also suggests vitamin D as a potentially useful Covid-19 drug. The vitamin is involved in the RAS system and could prove helpful by reducing levels of another compound, known as REN. Again, this could stop potentially deadly bradykinin storms from forming. The researchers note that vitamin D has already been shown to help those with Covid-19. The vitamin is readily available over the counter, and around 20% of the population is deficient. If indeed the vitamin proves effective at reducing the severity of bradykinin storms, it could be an easy, relatively safe way to reduce the severity of the virus. Other compounds could treat symptoms associated with bradykinin storms. Hymecromone, for example, could reduce hyaluronic acid levels, potentially stopping deadly hydrogels from forming in the lungs. And timbetasin could mimic the mechanism that the researchers believe protects women from more severe Covid-19 infections. All of these potential treatments are speculative, of course, and would need to be studied in a rigorous, controlled environment before their effectiveness could be determined and they could be used more broadly.

Covid-19 stands out for both the scale of its global impact and the apparent randomness of its many symptoms. Physicians have struggled to understand the disease and come up with a unified theory for how it works. Though as of yet unproven, the bradykinin hypothesis provides such a theory. And like all good hypotheses, it also provides specific, testable predictions — in this case, actual drugs that could provide relief to real patients. The researchers are quick to point out that "the testing of any of these pharmaceutical interventions should be done in well-designed clinical trials." As to the next step in the process, Jacobson is clear: "We have to get this message out." His team's finding won't cure Covid-19. But if the treatments it points to pan out in the clinic, interventions guided by the bradykinin hypothesis could greatly reduce patients' suffering — and potentially save lives.
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Post by Peterhausenn » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago


Large paper tourneys cancelled indefinitely. Small FNM tourneys are on hold until next year at the earliest. Meanwhile, digital players can use their cards 24/7, play games with friends, and take part in both large and small tournaments, starting right this very second. It's only a matter of time before people start to question why they are spending money on cardboard they cannot even play with. When that happens the formats that rotate and the sets that fuel them will crash in paper.

Eternal formats, and the whale type players who get into them will likely ride out the storm. If the world ever does self correct, then maybe they will have a chance to play in paper again. But the standard seasons that come and go....those paper cards are nigh worthless in my mind.
People stopping to play in paper tourneys and FNM tourneys does not mean the death of the game. People are still playing with friends, the game is still going strong and selling a lot. And considering that there are several vaccines in the pipeline, it'll be back to normal within a year or two.
Even if we assume what you are saying actually happens (highly dubious) a year or two is an eternity in terms of MTG seasons / culture. I will grant you that some non-zero portion of the population has friends and family that also play competitively, and those people have a chance to use their cards. But I think any reasonable person must concede that this is a tiny subset of the demographic. Are we to expect these people to step in and buy all the paper cards that the folks who have no family play group would have otherwise purchased? I think not.

It's supply and demand plain and simple to me. You have a huge supply of cards and demand for them that is based solely on a person's perceived value of the card, which is largely based on them being able to actually use it before it rotates.
there is no way that people stop buying mtg cards because of the virus. as far as tournaments go, the local game shops here in Japan are holding events multiple times a week. sure it may not be a sanctioned fnm but that doesnt even matter anymore. by removing all of the bonuses of fnm over the past few years it made their sanctioning irrelevant. furthermore i am still able to gather weekly with my play group to play. it may take the US a year or two to get back to "normal" but thats mostly due to fearmongering and political strategies. also keep in mind that its not just tournament players and whales that buy new cards. far more casual players buy cards than any "serious" player does and there are far more casual players. take the rise of commander as an example. its not being driven by the tournament player, its being driven by people who probably have never even played in an fnm.

as for digital, that will never take the place of paper no matter how much certain people want it. mtg is at its heart a social game and that cant properly be replicated online. for as much hype arena has as a platform there are many multitudes of players that wont touch it because they could care less about standard or drafting. modo offers more gameplay choices but its archaic design and almost no support will keep it kneecapped and no more than what it is now. if wizards could kill it off im sure they would. another thing about digital is that you dont own the digital cards, wizards does. that means they can reclaim them at any time with no recourse to the users. they cant do that with paper. paper is mtg and it will continue to be so for the entirety of the games lifespan and even probably for years after.

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Peterhausenn wrote:
3 years ago
there is no way that people stop buying mtg cards because of the virus. as far as tournaments go, the local game shops here in Japan are holding events multiple times a week. sure it may not be a sanctioned fnm but that doesnt even matter anymore. by removing all of the bonuses of fnm over the past few years it made their sanctioning irrelevant. furthermore i am still able to gather weekly with my play group to play. it may take the US a year or two to get back to "normal" but thats mostly due to fearmongering and political strategies. also keep in mind that its not just tournament players and whales that buy new cards. far more casual players buy cards than any "serious" player does and there are far more casual players. take the rise of commander as an example. its not being driven by the tournament player, its being driven by people who probably have never even played in an fnm.

as for digital, that will never take the place of paper no matter how much certain people want it. mtg is at its heart a social game and that cant properly be replicated online. for as much hype arena has as a platform there are many multitudes of players that wont touch it because they could care less about standard or drafting. modo offers more gameplay choices but its archaic design and almost no support will keep it kneecapped and no more than what it is now. if wizards could kill it off im sure they would. another thing about digital is that you dont own the digital cards, wizards does. that means they can reclaim them at any time with no recourse to the users. they cant do that with paper. paper is mtg and it will continue to be so for the entirety of the games lifespan and even probably for years after.
I actually agree with most of this. I think I have identified the disconnect here, and it probably is exacerbated by the fact that you guys are based in other countries.

I believe that you guys are drastically underestimating what "a year or two" of no paper magic in the US will do to that game. I also have no idea where you are getting your "year or two" estimates, basically you and kris both seem to be just guessing like the rest of us. Look at the fact that SSG has abandoned large scale tournies indefinitely, that is going to take a long time to find a replacement company. So we have two big problems in the way of competitive paper magic restarting in the US:

1. Covid protocols (can't change this, we are all at the whims of whoever)
2. Lack of organized competitive support → this one is the part y'all are over looking the most

So even if covid were gone tomorrow, we would be looking at an empty event schedule because no company is going to go through that headache in a post covid world. Think about it, a Magicfest in a world that has been conditioned to avoid any and all public gatherings under penalty of horrible virus death... Yeah, good luck.

Who even know what extra regulations will be in place for large gatherings over the next few years? I highly doubt they made a ton of money on these large events before covid hit. Now you throw in a bunch of expensive protocols to follow, and lack of desire from a scared public and we have no paper magic for the foreseeable future.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

A lot of Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games in the past have failed because they didn't have a robust Organized Play system let alone a Judge Program to help promote and advertise these games publicly to the masses and MTG is no exception. The reason why it hasn't affected MTG compared to it's competition before COVID was because it's the most successful of it's genre which led to a very crowded business market that Local Game Stores are unable to keep up with. Their inventory of card singles can only pander to the most popular Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games forcing potential customers to other locations where there's more support for Paper TCG / CCG's outside of MTG which also includes any Paper Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game that isn't Yu-Gi-Oh! or Pokémon TCG.

It creates a scenario where players are forced to buy their cards from online vendors since their LGS doesn't support said Paper TCG / CCG which ends up hurting the LGS because they're making less money from these Paper TCG / CCG's trying to compete against MTG. The sad reality of all this is that the system to multitask all these different Paper Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games without them getting discontinued is unsustainable. It's not that the companies behind these games don't care when they know that the risk isn't worth having those kind of odds stacked against themselves and as an end result they end up losing more money than they already invested in. Why would you want to take that kind of risk in a Post-COVID world? You wouldn't because all you're going to do is bleed money not getting anywhere.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Meanwhile the gigantic elephant in the room is MTGO (or arena if thats your gig). Digital magic is 24/7, 365. You can play any format you want, casually or competitively whenever you like. How long until even the hardcore paper players get bored or frustrated with lack of events and breakdown and play digitally? Digital cards are currently lower than 99% of their paper counter parts, so buying in doesn't feel too bad.] either.

I completely understand that digital magic is not a true 1:1 translation of paper magic. There is something about sitting in front of a guy and reading him that doesn't make it into the digital game. You can make a similar argument for digital / real poker. There is also a fun hanging out with friend social aspect of the game that isn't duplicated. I fully concede that these are very IMPORTANT parts about paper MTG and that folks don't like that they don't exist in MTGO.

I get it guys, I feel the same way. I am asking that you look at MTGO and try to find something you can enjoy out of it while we wait and see what happens with paper events. If you even think you MIGHT want to get into digital magic at some point in the future, I highly suggest you to buy in now while prices are still low. I have nothing to gain here, I am already invested in BOTH paper and digital. I am only saying this to try and be helpful to anyone who might be on the fence as it were.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I feel that's the direction I was starting to lean towards pre-covid. I could play whatever kind of Magic I wanted online, whenever I wanted. Without having to leave my house, with a less chance of getting paired against a lower tier player or deck.

I was using rental services on MTGO (my Arena Collection is pretty good) but kinda got sick of how poorly MTGO ran on my computer (I should probably upgrade my computer, as it's a potato), but I've been debating just actually buying into stuff on the client right now.

I've been on the fence about what to do with my paper collection tbh. I really like the social experience and the experience of travelling to events. The only problem is it is kinda up in the air right now. However, I don't feel paper magic will be totally dead

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
I feel that's the direction I was starting to lean towards pre-covid. I could play whatever kind of Magic I wanted online, whenever I wanted. Without having to leave my house, with a less chance of getting paired against a lower tier player or deck.

I was using rental services on MTGO (my Arena Collection is pretty good) but kinda got sick of how poorly MTGO ran on my computer (I should probably upgrade my computer, as it's a potato), but I've been debating just actually buying into stuff on the client right now.

I've been on the fence about what to do with my paper collection tbh. I really like the social experience and the experience of travelling to events. The only problem is it is kinda up in the air right now. However, I don't feel paper magic will be totally dead
If you are planning on going full in on MTGO, you need to see today's Good Morning Magic (found on youtube), it may contain some information that is relevant to your endeavor.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
I feel that's the direction I was starting to lean towards pre-covid. I could play whatever kind of Magic I wanted online, whenever I wanted. Without having to leave my house, with a less chance of getting paired against a lower tier player or deck.

I was using rental services on MTGO (my Arena Collection is pretty good) but kinda got sick of how poorly MTGO ran on my computer (I should probably upgrade my computer, as it's a potato), but I've been debating just actually buying into stuff on the client right now.

I've been on the fence about what to do with my paper collection tbh. I really like the social experience and the experience of travelling to events. The only problem is it is kinda up in the air right now. However, I don't feel paper magic will be totally dead
If you are planning on going full in on MTGO, you need to see today's Good Morning Magic (found on youtube), it may contain some information that is relevant to your endeavor.
I'll have to look into it then, one of my main reasons against actually buying into it was that it always seemed super hard to get into. I was probably just super wrong and the pandemic made me like how convenient online magic is. Even if I still do miss playing paper magic because of the social experience

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