What happened to White in ELD?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 months ago

So, I play a lot of white decks across several formats and while I don't tend to hate on Wizards with their creation of new sets, ELD has me a little alarmed when it comes to the playability of white. There are a number of metrics that have me more than a little concerned with what the heck happened to white in this upcoming set:
  • I looked at pricing (On Cardkingdom for transparency) and the MOST expensive card containing white in it is currently Faeburrow Elder at the 17th most expensive card of the set at $4.50. The most expensive mono white cards only come in at $4.00. Keep in mind this is not the cheapest prices you can get and prices on these level of cards usually drop given time.
  • I am primarily a commander player. The most playable commander white card might be a common? This is obviously open to interpretation but I don't feel that there is a white card that is clearly better than this.
  • From a standard / historic standpoint, it looks like the only likely white playable cards are all knight tribal aggro cards. Its possible that some of these cards might be playable in some other aggro decks as well but the starting point looks like knight tribal. It doesn't look like white got really any midrange or control effects that seem playable in these formats. EDIT: Ok, I guess Realm-Cloaked Giant is a playable standard wrath.
  • I did some breakdowns on the rares / mythics and as a whole most colors kind of break even when you look at counts. There are a few that are up or down one rare or mythic for mono color but usually make it up on multicolored. White has Happily Ever After though which is clearly being considered a white rare though. Maybe we can just discount that as an unplayable card but it happened to have taken up a slot for white which irritates me when its really a 5c meme card. This is also not the first time they have baggaged white with a card they intended to be a 5c card either and reduced the number of white rares thanks to it.
As a whole, I think this set is fine. There is some sweet stuff and interesting cards. But seriously what happened to white? It feels like there is almost no diversity to this set for white and they got rammed into this knights corner and dismissed.
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Post by Sharpened » 4 months ago

White cards that standout to me:
Realm-Cloaked Giant
Hushbringer
Deafening Silence
Harmonious Archon

I mean, 2 of the most ridiculous hate cards ever printed, a rather powerful Wrath/Finisher and an interesting battlefield warping creature. Acclaimed Contender also looks ridiculously strong for his tribe.

White may not be the best color in the set, but it's got some interesting options- even after you dismiss the support cards for its main in set tribe.

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Post by Outcryqq » 4 months ago

Like the poster above, I really like Realm-Cloaked Giant and Hushbringer and a few others for EDH.

Three, others that I like, though they're only related to ElD, are Charming Prince (EDH blink decks, humans?), Kenrith, the Returned King (sweet commander), and Silverwing Squadron.

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 months ago
I am primarily a commander player. The most playable commander white card might be a common? This is obviously open to interpretation but I don't feel that there is a white card that is clearly better than this.
Ummmm what about Hushbringer? Harmonious Archon? The Circle of Loyalty? What exactly is your definition of "playable" for commander? Cause it looks like this set has tons of awesome white cards for EDH, even in mono white.

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Post by Mookie » 4 months ago

In terms of white cards I'm considering picking up, there are: Dance of the Manse, Charming Prince, Deafening Silence, Castle Ardenvale, True Love's Kiss, and Doom Foretold, for a total of 6 cards. That number is below blue (9) and black (10), but above red (2) and green (3). That is strongly reflective of the decks I have though, which lean towards blue and away from red.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 months ago

Sharpened wrote:
4 months ago
White cards that standout to me:
Realm-Cloaked Giant
Hushbringer
Deafening Silence
Harmonious Archon

I mean, 2 of the most ridiculous hate cards ever printed, a rather powerful Wrath/Finisher and an interesting battlefield warping creature. Acclaimed Contender also looks ridiculously strong for his tribe.

White may not be the best color in the set, but it's got some interesting options- even after you dismiss the support cards for its main in set tribe.
Realm-Cloaked Giant There are exactly 5 white / X giant legends where this is playable in commander and one changeling 5c commander as well. Only one of these 6 legends is mono white. I agree that in thise potential 6 commanders, it is a playable card. Outside of those it is probably a budget inclusion. For a mythic rare to be playable in 6 commanders its close enough to call it not really a playable card or calling it tech for those specific decks.

Hushbringer I do actually like this card, but in my experience hatebears mostly isn't a thing in commander and in most every other format this effect is a sideboard material at best. This effect to my knowledge essentially is not run in modern so its sideboard standard material and mostly not played commander tech. I do like Torpor Orb effects in commander, its just not really something I have seen have much success to be honest. I myself have tried to build hatebears in commander but in almost every experience I noticed that it seems challanging to hate on the right type of effects consistantly given the nature of commander and how its not a best of three with sideboards format.

Deafening Silence I honestly don't know if this card is going to do something or not. From a commander standpoint, I don't actually expect anything from it. Maybe other formats??? I really haven't heard people talking about it but I do see its one of the higher priced uncommons. I don't know. My issue with this card in commander is that when I have seen white try hatebear effects often the effects don't line up too much and when they do they often don't last long.

Harmonious Archon I expect.......... absolutely nothing from this card. Its slow, expensive, fragile, and it feels like you are hoping for it to be an overrun but it just doesn't feel great to me. This card looks like a really bad toned down Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite that doesn't have immediate impact on board states. Sure, it comes with two 1/1 tokens but it seriously lacks the immediate impact that Elesh has.
Outcryqq wrote:
4 months ago
Like the poster above, I really like Realm-Cloaked Giant and Hushbringer and a few others for EDH.

Three, others that I like, though they're only related to ElD, are Charming Prince (EDH blink decks, humans?), Kenrith, the Returned King (sweet commander), and Silverwing Squadron.
Please tell me what all decks you plan to include those in? Those cards are incredibly narrow and generally speaking don't just slot in all that many decks.

Charming Prince - Maybe there is a deck out there that could actually make good use of him. I honestly don't know. The blink side of him is really his only decent ability when it comes to commander. I could maybe see him making some standard lists where his abilities look a bit better suited for but in commander he falls short by a good margin for most of those abilities.

Silverwing Squadron - its ok, but again this was essentially a brawl designed card. It was designed for multiplayer and even there where its alright it still doesn't feel all that powerful to me. It is painfully slow to function and even if it gets to do its thing for a few turns its still not that threatening for a six drop that is essentially only a combat creature.
Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 months ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 months ago
I am primarily a commander player. The most playable commander white card might be a common? This is obviously open to interpretation but I don't feel that there is a white card that is clearly better than this.
Ummmm what about Hushbringer? Harmonious Archon? The Circle of Loyalty? What exactly is your definition of "playable" for commander? Cause it looks like this set has tons of awesome white cards for EDH, even in mono white.
Can you name some decks that plan to optimally play these cards? Most of these cards feel like budget cards or extremely narrow inclusions. I maybe wouldn't hate The Circle of Loyalty so much if they hadn't punted on giving us a half decent knight tribal commander.

My point is mostly that these cards are INCREDIBLY narrow and don't belong in most commander decks.
Mookie wrote:
4 months ago
In terms of white cards I'm considering picking up, there are: Dance of the Manse, Charming Prince, Deafening Silence, Castle Ardenvale, True Love's Kiss, and Doom Foretold, for a total of 6 cards. That number is below blue (9) and black (10), but above red (2) and green (3). That is strongly reflective of the decks I have though, which lean towards blue and away from red.
I actually don't hate Dance of the Manse and Doom Foretold but both are very specific cards that go into kind of narrow archetypes of decks. I think both of those are fairly decent for the type of deck they do belong in. They are specific in where they belong being kind of specific roleplayers in a 2 color identity.

Castle Ardenvale is definitely not in the top half of the powered castles. It might be somewhere between middle of the pack and or low end. Its hard for me to really judge between the white, green, and black castles as to which is worst. The activation cost is far from great but the opportunity cost of running it is also not much. So, I guess from my standpoint its lowish on my commander standpoint and close to unplayable in other formats. I guess it would be ok in limited....

Green and Red have some FANTASTIC cards this set in comparison to white. I would say that they have a lot more playable commander cards this set.
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 months ago
Can you name some decks that plan to optimally play these cards? Most of these cards feel like budget cards or extremely narrow inclusions. I maybe wouldn't hate The Circle of Loyalty so much if they hadn't punted on giving us a half decent knight tribal commander.

My point is mostly that these cards are INCREDIBLY narrow and don't belong in most commander decks.
And who are you to determine which cards "don't belong" in people's Commander decks? It's a casual format with a wide range of power levels. All of the cards I mentioned will have a home in plenty of playgroups. It's not always about which cards are "the most optimal." Sorry if these cards aren't up to your standards, but then again maybe your standards are too high.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 months ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 months ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 months ago
Can you name some decks that plan to optimally play these cards? Most of these cards feel like budget cards or extremely narrow inclusions. I maybe wouldn't hate The Circle of Loyalty so much if they hadn't punted on giving us a half decent knight tribal commander.

My point is mostly that these cards are INCREDIBLY narrow and don't belong in most commander decks.
And who are you to determine which cards "don't belong" in people's Commander decks? It's a casual format with a wide range of power levels. All of the cards I mentioned will have a home in plenty of playgroups. It's not always about which cards are "the most optimal." Sorry if these cards aren't up to your standards, but then again maybe your standards are too high.
You are right, there are plenty of people who will play these cards. Some of this comes from me having a very deep collection and I never build decks based on what I have but I build on the available collection of magic as a whole.

These cards will totally get played by people. My complaints are primarily excluding price concerns and assuming the deckbuilder can or does own anything and or everything. I have been playing commander for the last 10 years now and my collection is such that I always play what I would consider optimal cards for my builds.

I am not trying to demean anyone by my statement of the power level of these cards. To me though most of these cards are incredibly niche when they are relevant.
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Post by The N82O Molecule » 4 months ago

I can agree with the underwhelmingness of rares these days

only rare that popped out at me was giant killer and charming prince in white (excluding multicolor)

"I am not trying to demean anyone by my statement of the power level of these cards. To me though most of these cards are incredibly niche when they are relevant."
acclaimed contender-need a knight
circle of loyalty-need a knight
linden, the steadfast queen-white creatures
realm-cloaked giant-giant tribal
worthy knight-knight tribal
happily ever after-well obviously

that 6 of 10 rares that are "niche when they are relevant"

that leaves harmonious archon and hushbringer

I would like to see hushbringer gain some poplarity cause of those lips. . .but also niche

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Post by The Fluff » 4 months ago

I'm a modern player and liking Hushbringer, Charming Prince, and Deafening Silence all feel like they are modern playable.
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Post by onering » 4 months ago

Deafening Silence shuts down storm. That's more of a modern thing than commander but there are commander decks that storm off, or at least cast a lot of instants and sorceries a turn, so it will make its way into people's decks depending on meta.

Hushbringer is good. I've won many games because I had the right hate bear. Hatebears.dek isn't a thing, but white gets a ton of mileage out of these.

Edit: I'm actually kind of excited for realm cloaked giant. There is a lot going on with that card that makes it a compelling wrath option, but I'll have to pay attention to the number of Giants and changelings I see in opponents decks before I decide if the non giant clause is bad or not. I'm mostly looking at this card as an overcoated wrath that gets you a fatty with vigilance down the line. I see people run the far more variant Phyrexian Rebirth, which is certainly a better Mana value and has a higher ceiling, but realm cloaked giant is more reliable in terms of what it gets you. Realm cloaked is also a creature, and that's important for many decks. Being able to eladamris call for a wrath is no joke, and it's easier for many decks to recur creatures than sorceries. It seems poised to make a splash in battle cruiser metas and in grindy decks, but I also like it for orzhov control.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

Ok, the set has been out for a week now. Its been on arena for a few weeks though.

Standard - Realm-Cloaked Giant appears to be the only standard legal white card seeing any play in standard and while its played in a good deck its played in essentially just that one deck. Knights appears to be even less viable than I thought it would be with white. The playable knights seem to currently be black and red.

Commander - still not convinced that really anything is playable. A few things fit the checkmark of roleplayers but I am not convinced that anything is generally good in commander as a whole.

Modern - Not aware of anything playable in white here.
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Post by tempoEDH » 3 months ago

I feel as though Hushbringer is getting FAR too little attention here. Maybe not in standard, but commander? It feels as though any deck where Hushbringer can be run without shutting down your own deck, you can stuff it in with no other hatebears and it will still do some work. I may be biased here (actually I definitely am), as my 3 most used decks are Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, Yarok, the Desecrated, and Ephara, God of the Polis, but there seem to be so many commander staples that get affected by Hushbringer.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

tempoEDH wrote:
3 months ago
I feel as though Hushbringer is getting FAR too little attention here. Maybe not in standard, but commander? It feels as though any deck where Hushbringer can be run without shutting down your own deck, you can stuff it in with no other hatebears and it will still do some work. I may be biased here (actually I definitely am), as my 3 most used decks are Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, Yarok, the Desecrated, and Ephara, God of the Polis, but there seem to be so many commander staples that get affected by Hushbringer.
The issue with it in commander is that its a best of 1 format where you pick your decks in the dark. These effects tend to be at their best with wishboards or sideboard best of three. I love torpor orb effects but they are heavily an all or nothing effect which is a lot harder to justify in that kind of setup. They tend to be at their best when your meta runs a lot of ETB effects which can be heavily meta dependant. As commander gets older I feel like there has been a lot more diversification in playable tactics. Things like spellslinger, artificer, enchantress, and several other archetypes have gotten a lot stronger than they were 10 years ago. Traditional control or token decks might also potentially be largely unaffected by torpor orb effects depending a lot on what type of deck and tactics they are using.

For years I had a big primer on MTGSalvation for Jenara, Asura of War as a goodstuff ETB deck and I can tell you right now, hatebears do almost nothing to a well built ETB value deck. I say this from the standpoint that any good deck built on ETB also has plenty of ways to kill them built into the deck. At best you maybe slow the deck down a little but the cost in when those cards aren't relevant enough is so high that almost nobody builds hatebears for commander because honestly its just not a tactic that tends to work in commander. If you look at the type of decks in modern / legacy that do it they tend to be very situational based on what opponents are doing and hope to slow opponents just enough to kill them. With commander being a 4 player game normally speaking its hard to make 2/2s close out 3 opponents starting at 40 each. Its far more likely someone resorts to stasis / stax / mass land destruction as they are tactics that tend to lend themselves more to commander but also no things a lot of players want to resort to.

I have tried to build hatebear effects and in the end, white has a lot of issues with card advantage and taking a hatebear that might or might not be relivant is hard to justify. It often means you need a second color to back you up on card advantage and it still leaves you kind of weak to sweepers or even just tactics that don't care about the specific type of hatebear effect you chose.
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Post by tempoEDH » 3 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 months ago
The issue with it in commander is that its a best of 1 format where you pick your decks in the dark. These effects tend to be at their best with wishboards or sideboard best of three. I love torpor orb effects but they are heavily an all or nothing effect which is a lot harder to justify in that kind of setup. They tend to be at their best when your meta runs a lot of ETB effects which can be heavily meta dependant. As commander gets older I feel like there has been a lot more diversification in playable tactics.
This is entirely true, and I don't disagree with it on the whole, however, my point is more along the lines of that there are so many etb effects that are used in almost every edh deck that can run them that just putting Hushbringer in any white deck might be relevant to any game. You don't necessarily have to sideboard against certain decks for it to be relevant, because it is at least slightly relevant in almost any game. Part of my disagreement here may be due to our conflicting playing levels, however. You stated quite plainly that you only really play cards if they are optimal in their slot, and when going for full optimization, I can see the argument that whenever you are in a matchup against a deck that does not get damaged as heavily by Hushbringer, it becomes a dead card, and therefore is useless in that game, actually damaging your gameplay rather than just not contributing beneficially. Since I tend to play slightly more casually, and don't REALLY have to stress about what is the most optimal card, I would love to stuff a Hushbringer in a deck just because it might be relevant in some games. The opinion on any of the cards that have been discussed so far seems to be decided based on your more optimal decisions vs a group that doesn't necessarily stress that much over it. Alternatively, cards like Deafening Silence I believe is incredibly relevant, but not due to my more casual group. Every white deck at the regular Commander Night Crew (TM) has a copy now because it IS relevant, but this is due to our meta, and since your regular meta may be different, there's no reason to assume you are wrong about it's power level, because it's simply not a good card for you.
Now, for the other cards.
Harmonious Archon is a card that I love, but am likely never going to see. To be completely honest, I think it's not a bad card, but any deck I see regularly would rather play something else. This is mostly a meta decision, again.
ISBPathfinder, Realm-Cloaked Giant is the only card that I really disagree with you on. You seemed to think it was only relevant in decks that care about giants, but that's simply not true. That feels like saying Armagedon is only good in a deck with no lands, so that it doesn't hurt you, or that Damnation is only relevant if your playing a deck with no creatures. A 5 mana board wipe may not be the best option, but that doesn't mean it can't be run outside of Giant tribal.
Now take all this with a grain of salt, it's the opinion of a 15-year old :)
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 months ago

tempoEDH wrote:
3 months ago
This is entirely true, and I don't disagree with it on the whole, however, my point is more along the lines of that there are so many etb effects that are used in almost every edh deck that can run them that just putting Hushbringer in any white deck might be relevant to any game. You don't necessarily have to sideboard against certain decks for it to be relevant, because it is at least slightly relevant in almost any game. Part of my disagreement here may be due to our conflicting playing levels, however. You stated quite plainly that you only really play cards if they are optimal in their slot, and when going for full optimization, I can see the argument that whenever you are in a matchup against a deck that does not get damaged as heavily by Hushbringer, it becomes a dead card, and therefore is useless in that game, actually damaging your gameplay rather than just not contributing beneficially. Since I tend to play slightly more casually, and don't REALLY have to stress about what is the most optimal card, I would love to stuff a Hushbringer in a deck just because it might be relevant in some games. The opinion on any of the cards that have been discussed so far seems to be decided based on your more optimal decisions vs a group that doesn't necessarily stress that much over it. Alternatively, cards like Deafening Silence I believe is incredibly relevant, but not due to my more casual group. Every white deck at the regular Commander Night Crew (TM) has a copy now because it IS relevant, but this is due to our meta, and since your regular meta may be different, there's no reason to assume you are wrong about it's power level, because it's simply not a good card for you.
Now, for the other cards.
Harmonious Archon is a card that I love, but am likely never going to see. To be completely honest, I think it's not a bad card, but any deck I see regularly would rather play something else. This is mostly a meta decision, again.
ISBPathfinder, Realm-Cloaked Giant is the only card that I really disagree with you on. You seemed to think it was only relevant in decks that care about giants, but that's simply not true. That feels like saying Armagedon is only good in a deck with no lands, so that it doesn't hurt you, or that Damnation is only relevant if your playing a deck with no creatures. A 5 mana board wipe may not be the best option, but that doesn't mean it can't be run outside of Giant tribal.
Now take all this with a grain of salt, it's the opinion of a 15-year old :)
I went through all of the decks I have in my signature just because I wanted an example of % hits. Again, this varries from person to person and meta to meta but for me it was:

Sram: 6 cards
Edgar: 8 cards hit by Hush, 2 by Torpor Orb (6 dies triggers)
Bruna: 11 cards
Jori En: 1 card
Heliod: 4 cards

My point is there are a lot of strategies it doesn't hit on at all. When you look at mono white decks or boros decks, you honestly don't have the card advantage levels to run these tactics in most of the time. If you look at WGX decks you might be using those tactics yourself so it kind of comes down to WU and WB decks in my opinion. You need more card advantage to take advantage of this but you also need to not be using those effects yourself. I would say that ultimately UW probably fits it the best but I also don't think there are many commanders that fit a playstyle that makes hatebears that viable as a tactic. This isn't to say you can't, but I think its a very narrow area for commander to play hatebears and do well in commander.

I do think there is a time and a place for hatebears in commander, I just think its VERY narrow and using very few commanders. Its always going to be hit by meta choices and how people design and play as well. These cards are playable, but I don't think they are ever going to be wildly popular or successful in commander.

People will always play with new cards because they are new. I do think there is a time and a place for most reasonable cards but the point of this thread is primarily not talking about niche tech or budget constraints. Every card is playable when you are on a budget.

Deafening Silence - Its a card that can be competative. Its also not going to generally speaking show up in most casual to mid tier commander decks. This card is going to show up in metas where storm / combo are popular as the expected level of play. I think its fine, its not really new though as I want to say its another iteration of an effect that we have something like 4 different versions of by now. Its ok, but its also not going to be wildly accepted into commander because its more of a cEDH card (assuming its even good there I don't play cEDH myself).

Harmonious Archon - Its weak to spot removal and sweepers. Its not even that strong of an anthem and in most cases its going to end up being worse Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in that it rewards other token decks. Elesh is almost always going to be better because she punishes opponents value creatures and tokens and even if she eats spot removal, she has already probably halved the field. Beyond that Elesh also pumps any creature you have that isn't a 1/1 to be stronger than the Archon can while making almost everything the same statline at worst (a 0/1 will be worse but they are kind of rare).

Realm-Cloaked Giant - its a fine budget card. Its issue in every format that isn't standard is that there are just better options that can be played. When you look at the front side there are just too many wraths that are all strictly better than it being cheaper or more diverse in their actions. The value added to this card is entirely on the back side or being in a deck with giants. I think almost any wrath can be run in a budget, but budget decks don't mean cards are optimal.

There is nothing wrong with being younger. I have been playing commander for 10 years now though and magic as a whole for 20+ years now. I know I am not always right and a lot of the point of these forms is to post opinions. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion that doesn't meet up with mine or anyone else here. But it is good to be open to discussion and seeing other's standpoints. My stance here is that there are very few optimal white cards in this set. This is from the standpoint of looking at so many other very playable cards in other colors. There are cards in this set that are playable, they are just vary narrow and situational lacking monetary value or widespread use.
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 months ago

White's been getting the short end for years, though that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. What really bothers me about WotC's approach to white is the lack of any kind of card draw. Every single other color gets some kind of card draw:

Blue: just draws cards because it can.
Black: pays a price, normally life or a sacrifice.
Green: tied to creatures.
Red: impulsive draw, exile and can play until end of turn.
White: nothing.

I really thought Dawn of Life was space worth exploring, as white should definitely have the most hoops to jump through to draw cards, but WotC apparently abandoned that in favor of 'everybody draws,' and I'm not touching that. Ever.
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
3 months ago
White's been getting the short end for years, though that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. What really bothers me about WotC's approach to white is the lack of any kind of card draw.
Yeah, that's one of white's weaknesses. Every color has weaknesses. And white getting the short end for years? Reactionary nonsense. White is down a little right now, but it's had its times on top as well.

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Post by tempoEDH » 3 months ago

I feel as though we're all ignoring one simple fact:
The rares/mythics don't define the color.
And so everyone has been missing the real powerhouses of ELD white in EDH.
The rares and mythics are so narrow to compensate for the power they put into one common:
Bartered Cow
Free beans!
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Post by tempoEDH » 3 months ago

I jest
Ignore my sarcasm
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 months ago

White does get good things, its just that white got almost nothing playable from ELD. If you look at the current standard, white is almost absent at this point. White right now is used as a pickup color for sweepers and outside of that its almost not used. With the ban of field of the dead it means that the Giant lost one of its biggest decks it was played in meaning that now its just a question of if Fires of Invention is good enough in this new Oko overloard meta (not sure i'm not playing / watching enough to tell).

White does get good cards and no, they aren't always rare / mythic but man..... ELD looks like it had some really sweet cards for every color but white.
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